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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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ForestFire

_Dara_ wrote: »

What are you rambling on about? Who said you couldn’t express your opinion? People are questioning your post, it being a forum and all.

Nice try but not true, i never said i could not express my opinion now did i?

I was asked to comment on other posts here , and question why I did not do so, and why I only question some posts.

That's a big difference.

You do not comment on every post, and you are not dictated to do so

ForestFire

robarmstrong wrote: »

Sort of like the women who should not be dictated how or where they seek an abortion?

Again completely irrelevant and unrelated?

Freedoms of speech is not freedoms do do everything else. We have laws you know.

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal side must be in trouble, Regina Doherty is already talking about a second referendum and has called voters who don’t vote for repeal as ignorant.
She said she was originally pro-life out of ignorance.
This is Regina Doherty’s backet of deplorables moment.

Be prepared to eat your words. Eg your original thread title "The 8th Amendment won't be repealed" backfired somewhat. A desire to repeal won't go away if this referendum fails. I do think it stands a good chance of passing but I think I and others aren't willing to become complacent.

Oldtree

ForestFire wrote: »

Again completely irrelevant and unrelated?

Freedoms of speech is not freedoms do do everything else. We have laws you know.

And imo we're going to have some new laws soon

_Dara_

ForestFire wrote: »

Nice try but not true, i never said i could not express my opinion now did i?

I was asked to comment on other posts here , and question why I did not do so, and why I only question some posts.

That's a big difference.

You do not comment on every post, and you are not dictated to do so

And again, nobody is dictating you to comment on other posts. People are questioning why you are ignoring ones that show that pro-lifers refer to irrelevant stuff. People are simply highlighting your selectivity.

Call me Al

ForestFire wrote: »

Nice try but not true, i never said i could not express my opinion now did i?

I was asked to comment on other posts here , and question why I did not do so, and why I only question some posts.

That's a big difference.

You do not comment on every post, and you are not dictated to do so

You can comment on what you want to, just don't be surprised when your double standards are pointed out for the world to see.

RobertKK

robarmstrong wrote: »

Deplorable moments? One of your fellow supporters said that women who are raped should basically be forced to continue the pregnancy against their will. (sex against their will and keeping an unwanted pregnancy against their will)

Can you comment on this? Or are you just gonna tuck and roll outta here and return with more sh!te?

We had the C case where a 13 year was raped and taken into state care and was given an abortion against her will and that of her parents. She spoke about how this affected her mentally and how she grieves everyday for her baby that was killed by the Irish state.
She said the abortion was far worse than the rape for her.
What are the actual figures for pregnancies from rape in Ireland? The thing is if a woman was raped and became pregnant and had the baby, she forever had the evidence of the rape years later to convict the rapist, unlike if she was not strong enough to go to the GardaI and years later no evidence as she had disposed of the evidence and you would end up in a court case of one claiming and another denying the rape ever took place and you would be relying on a jury.
Rape victims need to seek medical attention immediately, they need to be encouraged to not be afraid to seek that help. But putting another tragedy on top of the rape is hardly a solution.

Edward M

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal side must be in trouble, Regina Doherty is already talking about a second referendum and has called voters who don’t vote for repeal as ignorant.
She said she was originally pro-life out of ignorance.
This is Regina Doherty’s backet of deplorables moment.

How do you define ignorance though?
It can easily happen and does, girls as young as 12,13,14,15,16,17, becoming pregnant through ignorance of the risk because of their immaturity of age and thought process.
Should they be condemned to having to carry a pregnancy through to term that will vastly change their development process let alone their whole life afterwards.
That's just one example of many, is it acceptable to force these girls to go through to term and have their baby, either naturally if they are fit, or by cs if not.
Do you or any other poster think it is just for them to have to give birth if they are afraid and don't want to?
Coming out of ignorance isn't deplorable for anyone!

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Deplorable moments? One of your fellow supporters said that women who are raped should basically be forced to continue the pregnancy against their will. (sex against their will and keeping an unwanted pregnancy against their will)

Can you comment on this? Or are you just gonna tuck and roll outta here and return with more sh!te?

I did not say that. I was asked what I myself would do in that situation and I responded to that question for myself alone as is my freedom and right .

RobertKK

pitifulgod wrote: »

Be prepared to eat your words. Eg your original thread title "The 8th Amendment won't be repealed" backfired somewhat. A desire to repeal won't go away if this referendum fails. I do think it stands a good chance of passing but I think I and others aren't willing to become complacent.

The repeal side needs foreign money to fund it as shown on Prime time. The repeal side is using PayPal so it can take foreign donations.
The savethe8th needs your eircode.
Amnesty international in the high court over using foreign money to promote repeal.
On prime time too they found the retention of the 8th side was open about the funding and near all replied but the repeal side failed for the most part to say where their funding was coming from...
I think the repeal side is mostly media and politician driven and the majority is not there for repeal and that is why they wouldn’t tell prime time where most of the funding is coming from.

Graces7

RobertKK wrote: »

We had the C case where a 13 year was raped and taken into state care and was given an abortion against her will and that of her parents. She spoke about how this affected her mentally and how she grieves everyday for her baby that was killed by the Irish state.
She said the abortion was far worse than the rape for her.
What are the actual figures for pregnancies from rape in Ireland? The thing is if a woman was raped and became pregnant and had the baby, she forever had the evidence of the rape years later to convict the rapist, unlike if she was not strong enough to go to the GardaI and years later no evidence as she had disposed of the evidence and you would end up in a court case of one claiming and another denying the rape ever took place and you would be relying on a jury.
Rape victims need to seek medical attention immediately, they need to be encouraged to not be afraid to seek that help. But putting another tragedy on top of the rape is hardly a solution.

and it will not negate the rape to about the baby.

eviltwin

Graces7 wrote: »

and it will not negate the rape to about the baby.

No but it further traumatises a woman to exert additional control over her body.

Don't you think someone who has been through the ordeal of rape has suffered enough? Where is your compassion?

ForestFire

Call me Al wrote: »

You can comment on what you want to, just don't be surprised when your double standards are pointed out for the world to see.

Did you do this? Again I can comment one which posts I like, just because I don't comment on every other post does not mean I agree with it and I don't hold everyone else responsible for the posts they don't comment on.

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

We had the C case where a 13 year was raped and taken into state care and was given an abortion against her will and that of her parents. She spoke about how this affected her mentally and how she grieves everyday for her baby that was killed by the Irish state.
She said the abortion was far worse than the rape for her.
What are the actual figures for pregnancies from rape in Ireland? The thing is if a woman was raped and became pregnant and had the baby, she forever had the evidence of the rape years later to convict the rapist, unlike if she was not strong enough to go to the GardaI and years later no evidence as she had disposed of the evidence and you would end up in a court case of one claiming and another denying the rape ever took place and you would be relying on a jury.
Rape victims need to seek medical attention immediately, they need to be encouraged to not be afraid to seek that help. But putting another tragedy on top of the rape is hardly a solution.

So you think a woman should remain pregnant to prove she was raped? Firstly, you've made a child into a piece of evidence that should be kept, that's an incredibly warped perspective. Secondly, you put a woman under considerable strain to continue that pregnancy against her will. The child will not serve as proof of anything unless she was under age when she got pregnant.

Many women will continue pregnancies in that scenario, others won't. It should ultimately be their choice. At the moment we force those women who choose not to continue, abroad. So the existing scenario we put women under considerably more mental strain for a person in an incredibly difficult situation. Rape or not. And not everyone is able to travel so you're currently forcing the vulnerable to continue pregnancy or to travel if able.

Yep, you're gonna get cases of regret. But I know more than one person who has had an abortion and they don't regret. You don't legislate based on regret.

Edward M

RobertKK wrote: »

We had the C case where a 13 year was raped and taken into state care and was given an abortion against her will and that of her parents. She spoke about how this affected her mentally and how she grieves everyday for her baby that was killed by the Irish state.
She said the abortion was far worse than the rape for her.
What are the actual figures for pregnancies from rape in Ireland? The thing is if a woman was raped and became pregnant and had the baby, she forever had the evidence of the rape years later to convict the rapist, unlike if she was not strong enough to go to the GardaI and years later no evidence as she had disposed of the evidence and you would end up in a court case of one claiming and another denying the rape ever took place and you would be relying on a jury.
Rape victims need to seek medical attention immediately, they need to be encouraged to not be afraid to seek that help. But putting another tragedy on top of the rape is hardly a solution.

Well that's a new one, keep the baby as evidence?

Even the eighth allows abortion in rape cases, supposedly anyway, I heard figures on radio the other day, I think it said 7 rape victims have had abortion here since 2013.

January

Edward M wrote: »

Well that's a new one, keep the baby as evidence?
Even the eighth allows abortion in rape cases, supposedly anyway, I heard figures on radio the other day, I think it said 7 rape victims have had abortion here since 2013.

Not specifically, it allows abortion in cases where the mothers health is at serious risk and that includes from suicide.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

I did not say that. I was asked what I myself would do in that situation and I responded to that question for myself alone as is my freedom and right .

So can another woman have the choice to do something different? It is purely hypothetical to you, but very real to others. Abortion won't be compulsory, so you can do as you wish. Compassion for the unbearable situation women can find themselves in wouldn't go amiss.
It's easy to say you'd do something when it is not even remotely likely to happen to you.
This amendment may pass or it may not. I'll accept whatever the majority decide, as it won't change my own views or situation.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Graces7 wrote: »

I did not say that. I was asked what I myself would do in that situation and I responded to that question for myself alone as is my freedom and right .

With all due respect Grace you have no idea what you’d do if you were raped and found yourself with child. You cannot comprehend to feel that level of violation unless you’ve been through it. When the thoughts of merely touching your body repulses you never mind having the seed of whoever raped you growing inside you and taking life from you. You cannot say what you would do because thankfully that has never happened to you but it has happened to a lot of women and they deserve to do what’s right for them

Call me Al

ForestFire wrote: »

Did you do this? Again I can comment one which posts I like, just because I don't comment on every other post does not mean I agree with it and I don't hold everyone else responsible for the posts they don't comment on.

LOL Did I do what exactly?

Right so, do you agree (and a simple yes or no will suffice if you'd prefer the brevity) that arguments here from pro-life supporters relating to Chinese and Indian cultural attitudes towards girls, and consequent abortion rates within their cultures, are irrelevant to any discussions surrounding the Irish abortion referendum?

But of course you can comment on what you want.. as you keep reminding us so emphatically

Timberrrrrrrr

RobertKK wrote: »

The repeal side needs foreign money to fund it as shown on Prime time. The repeal side is using PayPal so it can take foreign donations.
The savethe8th needs your eircode.
Amnesty international in the high court over using foreign money to promote repeal.
On prime time too they found the retention of the 8th side was open about the funding and near all replied but the repeal side failed for the most part to say where their funding was coming from...
I think the repeal side is mostly media and politician driven and the majority is not there for repeal and that is why they wouldn’t tell prime time where most of the funding is coming from.

Can you show us where the save the 8th people declared where their money comes from? I believe IONA in particular are VERY cagey about their funding. How much American (foreign) money is donated to the save the 8th groups?

erica74

RobertKK wrote: »

We had the C case where a 13 year was raped and taken into state care and was given an abortion against her will and that of her parents. She spoke about how this affected her mentally and how she grieves everyday for her baby that was killed by the Irish state.
She said the abortion was far worse than the rape for her.
What are the actual figures for pregnancies from rape in Ireland? The thing is if a woman was raped and became pregnant and had the baby, she forever had the evidence of the rape years later to convict the rapist, unlike if she was not strong enough to go to the GardaI and years later no evidence as she had disposed of the evidence and you would end up in a court case of one claiming and another denying the rape ever took place and you would be relying on a jury.
Rape victims need to seek medical attention immediately, they need to be encouraged to not be afraid to seek that help. But putting another tragedy on top of the rape is hardly a solution.

Well do you know what, I was sexually abused by my brother for a number of years when I was a child and let me tell you now, if I had ended up pregnant as a result of that abuse, the furthest thing from my mind would have been holding onto "evidence" as you put it.

retro:electro

Graces7 wrote: »

I have never avoided Tuam and far from it. It is the most evil of all the evil abuses committed in Ireland. It has alienated me from the Church and from all the Church is involved in and yet I still know that the life of a child conceived through rape is as precious as any other child

I knew this long before I knew the Church

And yes, they have no real voice in this; just happens I believe every word of that article

It’s easy say that though, isn’t it, when you have a remarkable detachment from the situation and will (thankfully) never have to go through the pain of finding out. It would be like me telling you God doesn’t exist, and expecting you to live in a society where your views are arrested and only one viewpoint is accepted. But instead you’re allowed believe in God if you wish, and I’m allowed disbelieve. And both of us can coexist peacefully under the one roof with our own views, beliefs and opinions where one perspective isn’t pushed as universal. Because that would be awful.

You do can do what you want, think what you want and believe what you want for all I care. You’re a grown woman and have afforded yourself that right. But please do not think you have the right to decide what I do with my own body.
100 years of the female vote. I’ll be doing it for the women who still have their rights repressed in this country every single day because of this stupid amendment that has no business being here in 2018.

SusieBlue

Graces7 wrote: »

I did not say that. I was asked what I myself would do in that situation and I responded to that question for myself alone as is my freedom and right .

So because it’s what you’d do, it’s the ‘right’ choice, and everyone else should have to do the same? Are you having a laugh?

You shouldn’t get to be the judge and jury on another womans reproductive organs. It’s absolutely none of your business.

I don’t believe abortion pre 12 weeks is taking a life, I don’t believe it’s wrong. I trust women to make the right decision and to take responsibility however she sees fit.
I care more about the citizens who are actually here (women) than potential humans in the womb.
As much as I disagree with your stance I respect your right to have it, you should afford others the same. We shouldn’t have to live our lives restricted by your morals.

And I have to say, your last few comments have been nothing short of a frightening read. Zero compassion, zero sympathy, just pure disdain and judgment of women who’s circumstances you’ll never have to live through.
Absolutely shameful that these attitudes are still alive and well. Hopefully you won’t have your way much longer.
The 8th will be repealed and you’ll have to find something else to get on your moral high horse over.

erica74

Graces7 wrote: »

I have never avoided Tuam and far from it. It is the most evil of all the evil abuses committed in Ireland. It has alienated me from the Church and from all the Church is involved in and yet I still know that the life of a child conceived through rape is as precious as any other child

I knew this long before I knew the Church

And yes, they have no real voice in this; just happens I believe every word of that article

You can't actually be serious with that?!

The thought of that actually makes me feel ill.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Come on are we really surprised a member of the church thinks babies are precious considering they stole thousands of babies and sold them on while keeping the mothers captive? Of course babies are precious they were £££££ to the church and the ones they didn’t sell, they raped

ForestFire

Call me Al wrote: »

LOL Did I do what exactly?

Right so, do you agree (and a simple yes or no will suffice if you'd prefer the brevity) that arguments here from pro-life supporters relating to Chinese and Indian cultural attitudes towards girls, and consequent abortion rates within their cultures, are irrelevant to any discussions surrounding the Irish abortion referendum?

But of course you can comment on what you want.. as you keep reminding us so emphatically

In your hast to laugh at me I have already commented on this.

I also said Tuam has special meaning to me but you conveniently ignore this.

Do you hold only certain posters on here responsible for Tuam? While others can absolve themselves, when in fact nobody here is ikely anyway responsible and it's no relevant to this vote.

RobertKK

erica74 wrote: »

Well do you know what, I was sexually abused by my brother for a number of years when I was a child and let me tell you now, if I had ended up pregnant as a result of that abuse, the furthest thing from my mind would have been holding onto "evidence" as you put it.

My wording was not the best but there has been cases in the past where the child was the proof that the woman was raped. The unborn is an innocent life in the rape just like the woman who was raped is.
I am not going to pretend i can imagine the depth of the horror you went through, but that sounds horrific and I am sorry to read that, hope you are ok.

This is a general comment and not aimed at you, I don’t think it is nice for people either who were born from the result of rape to see people say they shouldn’t have been allowed to live. The pro choice side seem to always argue that rape is like a clear cut reason for abortion. The message it sends out to the children who are the result of a rape is damaging.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

The message it sends out? Are you for real? It’s okay to force someone to be an incubator for nine months to grow their abusers child but you dare not speak about it for fear of offending someone? Good Christ

RobertKK

Valerie Fat Turbojet wrote: »

The message it sends out? Are you for real? It’s okay to force someone to be an incubator for nine months to grow their abusers child but you dare not speak about it for fear of offending someone? Good Christ

You can go and tell children whose father raped their mother to conceive them that they should be dead if you want.

david75

This is great news as this company have been hired by the pro life campaign and now theyre scuppered. They were up to some sinister sh!t

https://twitter.com/newstalkfm/status/974999563483435009?s=21