Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Feisar

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Because rights get removed if not defended.

Look at our current extremely "licenced" society for proof.
The same things which could be done in the past without now require licencing, even if that only equates to paying a fee with no competence component, ie selling rights back to us.

And my responsibilities to society end firmly before a mandatory vaccination, and significantly before a two tier society is created.

If anyone else chooses of their own free will to get vaccinated then cool, but not if they were forced into it.

Critical thinking does seem to take a leave of absence here in lieu of mob mentality stoked on by the press and government divide and rule agenda in Ireland though, so I'm not surprised that you are implying it is my responsibility to "society" to get vaccinated.

You are right about rights, that stuff needs to be defended.

As regards the bit I bolded in your reply, people seem to think they are special, they/we are not. Its about the group/tribe/herd/whatever tag you want to put on the collective. You put society in inverted commas as if it's a notional thing, that society delivers food to the play you get your groceries, fills your tank with oil, provides your electricity, etc, etc, etc. So yea you owe it to everyone else in this ecosystem to get vaccinated.

Now to add a caveat, I'm skeptical of this particular vaccine but that's not what I'm primarily talking about. There are talks about refusing kids places in schools that haven't had the MMR for example due to outbreaks.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jun/04/should-only-mmr-vaccinated-children-be-allowed-a-school-place

otmmyboy2

Feisar wrote: »

So yea you owe it to everyone else in this ecosystem to get vaccinated.

Yeah gonna wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Society is in quotation marks because of your reference "to their society".
Society as you just described it provides nothing unless I pay for it.

Relatively few people do something for nothing, particularly something as invasive as getting a shot or pair of shots.

I have stated before I am not anti vaccinations, I am however completely against mandatory vaccinations.

You should not be able to force, coerce, or compel someone to take a vaccination they choose not to.

If you want to improve update and reduce skepticism then other things need to be looked at, including messaging(not propaganda a la Jacinda Ardern), trustworthy reporting, independent analysis, really answering people's fears and questions about the various vaccines rather than brushing them off, etc to try and educate people on why it might be a good idea that they should get it.

This is regardless of vaccine, not just the covid ones in the limelight now.

"Good ideas don't require force" and all that :P

Now to add a caveat, I'm skeptical of this particular vaccine but that's not what I'm primarily talking about. There are talks about refusing kids places in schools that haven't had the MMR for example due to outbreaks.

Fair enough.
My comments have been solely about the prospect of mandatory or coerced vaccinations, not covid in particular but simply this one has been the first to raise the issue of mandatory vaccination in my lifetime.

I'd be rather curious as to the reasoning why people aren't getting their kids vaccinated against MMR though.
If it is the autism thing which I believe was discredited long ago then get people talking about it, have talks with parents whose kids aren't vaccinated to see are there areas they could be reassured about, fears/concerns they may have around the vaccine, etc.


I just had to add, looked at that guardian article you linked and christ I couldn't agree with the first chap more, he said it a lot better than I:

No, the MMR shouldn’t be compulsory. That would only be counterproductive. People will react against it and think they are being bullied and not being listened to. The right way to increase the vaccination rate is to engage respectfully with people, listen to their point of view and provide accurate and reliable information. Trying to compel people to vaccinate would probably be ineffective and could produce a negative reaction that would make matters even worse. We should try to persuade parents it is the right thing to do and a safe thing to do, which will protect all children.

Should be applied to most things honestly, covid vaccinations for sure.

civdef

BattleCorp wrote: »

The cops (well one at least) were d1cks but I'm not quite absolving Caron Nazario of all wrongdoing either.

Why didn't he get out of the car when he was asked? When the cop tried to open the door of the car, Nazario held it shut with his forearm.

Is it not a lawful command for the police to ask him to get out of the car?

The man was stopped for something he hadn't done (non-display of plates), wasn't speeding etc - so I don't see why he couldn't ask for some explanation. He was also being given contradictory orders abut keeping hands up and getting out of the vehicle) and I think rightly felt that if he went to open his seatbelt he was potentially in real danger.

I really don't see probable cause for what they decided to treat as a felony stop.

otmmyboy2

civdef wrote: »

The man was stopped for something he hadn't done (non-display of plates), wasn't speeding etc - so I don't see why he couldn't ask for some explanation. He was also being given contradictory orders abut keeping hands up and getting out of the vehicle) and I think rightly felt that if he went to open his seatbelt he was potentially in real danger.

I really don't see probable cause for what they decided to treat as a felony stop.

Philando Castile's family would agree with that.

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Routine" traffic stops are the most dangerous day to day activity a US LEO will face. So lets take this as a factor.He drives a mile to get to a well-lit area,as advised to do, but no doubt setting ff all sorts of Spidey senses in the cops. Why are they pulling him? No Lic plate, bar a hard enough to see temp lic tag. A bit of paper 5in by4ins not really visible in the dark tint of the back window.

Traffic stops are bloody dangerous, mostly from other traffic though as borne out by stats for officer deaths. It must totally suck to have to police in a place where the chance of perp with gun is so high though.

I don't credit these two morons with functioning spidey senses though.

The guy is an army Lt and carrying a handgun in his footwell. Interesting as US army bases have very strict rules about personal firearms on base inc vehicles.So was he cleared to carry such by the base commander is another interesting point in this

Interesting but not relevant to the case in hand, and at the end of the day he was exercising his rights - think he had a CCW too?

As a Lt he should know a thing about obeying orders and giving such.When you have guys pointing guns at you maybe its best to comply and save explanations and questions until they are happy you aren't a threat.

Lawful orders, of course. I didn't see a whole lot of lawful. It definitely is more sensible to keep mouth shut and sue later - but in a free society, someone brave enough to protest injustice shouldn't be criticised for that.

Police response to this incident, utterly a shambles and unprofessional.Issuing contradictory commands to the man then macse ing him for not exiting the car, and then trying to make a deal of this "all going away" if he doen't make an issue of it!"

No argument there at all- doing some further reading, it seems towns in this area are known for poor policing standards. Amazing how a small town here that might justify a couple of guards here is able to run its own independent force there with very little oversight and fairly dodgy hiring / training practices.

Still at least they didn't get their Glocks mixed up with their Tasers as like the stupid bint in Minnesota.:rolleyes:

If it wasn't so tragic it'd be funny.

civdef

On the other hand, the man is probably going to own the town lock, stock and barrel by the time the lawsuits are over.

Mellor

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Even Sweden which never locked down is around 1.5%, going by cases vs deaths, of course that is likely lower because of asymptomatic cases.

I'd say half the mortality rate is less dangerous.

That's mortality rate, unrelated to R0 number.

And I agree that that non symptomatic cases might mean the mortality rate is lower, but by the same token it means that the transmission rate is higher. THe net effect is the same number people die.

Passports were initiated as a temporary measure around WWI, and yet they are still here. I disagree with revoking your freedom to travel internationally and selling it back to you only to be revoked at will by your country.

Eg - people were once free to travel without passports, then that freedom was revoked and sold back to them(passports aren't free) and subject to the whims of the government(see tin pot governments confiscating passports of political dissidents).

Passports have existed since medieval times are earlier. In parliament law since the 1500s. They served to help you prove who you were overseas. But mass migration wasn't an issue until the 20th century, people complained about war time restriction. But it's absolutely necessary in the 21st century.

Or are you saying that passports should be abolished, and all immigration borders dropped? As I really can't you supporting that in the other direction.

I equate your "consequences" of choosing not to get vaccinated to coercion because that is what it is, if something is truly optional in the sense of vaccinations then why should people be punished if they refuse?
Denying someone something is still punishment, and if you disagree with the word coercion then duress would fit it nicely:

But it doesn't fit the definition of coercion. Coercion implies that the restriction is attempt to get people to do something in and of itself.
Which doesn't apply here. Restrictions would not to force/encourage people to get vaccinated. There are there to increased safety for society.
As I said, I'm perfectly ok with people choosing not to be vaccinated. And they should be aware that that decision affects their risk profile.

Optional, in no way implies without consequence.
Driver Licenses are optional. Not being licensed had consequence.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Y
I'd be rather curious as to the reasoning why people aren't getting their kids vaccinated against MMR though.
If it is the autism thing which I believe was discredited long ago then get people talking about it, have talks with parents whose kids aren't vaccinated to see are there areas they could be reassured about, fears/concerns they may have around the vaccine, etc.

It is almost certainly routed in the autism thing. One man did society a lot of harm with that fake "study". People believe these nonsense stories because it's fearmongering. Talking to them does not help, they dig their heels and decided it's a matter of opinion not fact.
People are entitled to their opinions, the problem is that people think their uneducated and ill-formed opinions are equal to others. Obvious not the case.
But it's a human condition, and as a result we have people who believe the earth is flat, and others who believe dinosaurs are a hoax (or a test from God). :rolleyes:

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Routine" traffic stops are the most dangerous day to day activity a US LEO will face. So lets take this as a factor.He drives a mile to get to a well-lit area,as advised to do, but no doubt setting ff all sorts of Spidey senses in the cops. Why are they pulling him? No Lic plate, bar a hard enough to see temp lic tag. A bit of paper 5in by4ins not really visible in the dark tint of the back window.

Pulling over in a well lit and safe place is pretty standard. Traffic police should be used to that.
Was the paper tag issued by the state? If so then it's not the drivers fault that it's the system. Even if hard to see, the very first thing the officer should have done was check for a tag. He didn't. He first action was to pull a gun and give confusing orders, then pepper spray the guy.
He's been fired. And rightfully so. Hope he gets nailed in civil court too.

yubabill

This whole thing with vaccines and clots is a cluster funk. It's being handled abysmally all over and it will undermine public confidence in the rollout.

This is what happens when politicians get involved with people who have a God complex (some in the medical community).

At least they have not tried to make vaccination mandatory. That would be a serious violation of human rights IMHO and the choice should be with the individual.

The only consolation is that the public will pay less attention to experts in the future (hopefully climate change experts, because I believe a lot of them are charlatans).

There are a few genuine scientists and medical professionals left, they have always won in the long run and let's hope they get their day.

civdef

yubabill wrote: »

This whole thing with vaccines and clots is a cluster funk. It's being handled abysmally all over and it will undermine public confidence in the rollout.

This is what happens when politicians get involved with people who have a God complex (some in the medical community).

At least they have not tried to make vaccination mandatory. That would be a serious violation of human rights IMHO and the choice should be with the individual.

The only consolation is that the public will pay less attention to experts in the future (hopefully climate change experts, because I believe a lot of them are charlatans).

There are a few genuine scientists and medical professionals left, they have always won in the long run and let's hope they get their day.

If you start off believing all but a “few” scientists and medical professionals are genuine- you will be very hard to satisfy about anything in the modern world I fear.

Are you basing this assessment of millions of trained professionals off any training of your own?

tudderone

civdef wrote: »

If you start off believing all but a “few” scientists and medical professionals are genuine- you will be very hard to satisfy about anything in the modern world I fear.

Are you basing this assessment of millions of trained professionals off any training of your own?

What qualifications does Greta Thunberg have to be bleating on, on media worldwide about something as complex as climate ?

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

Traffic stops are bloody dangerous, mostly from other traffic though as borne out by stats for officer deaths. It must totally suck to have to police in a place where the chance of perp with gun is so high though.

Officers being killed by traffic on stops is the least of the problems on a routine stop. Thats why they are so jumpy on stops is because they dont know what they are facing with the potential of facing a gun being pointed on them.Hence it is better just to comply with their demands,and not give them a problem.De-escalate the situation as much as possible,as a driver being stopped.

I don't credit these two morons with functioning spidey senses though.

More in the term of "WTF is this guy doing,is this going to be the one,Fuk I'm not being paid enough to do this job!" type senses...dunno what sort of a term you give that.


I

nteresting but not relevant to the case in hand, and at the end of the day he was exercising his rights - think he had a CCW too?

Since the cops claimed it was another reason they pulled him over.... But even if he had a CCW,thats null and void once you are on Uncle Sams property,be it a military base, courthouse, school,prision etc, and esp if you are serving! Even if it is on base accommodation.
Unless the base commander and your CO has cleared you to carry to and from or on the base, its a question then for the military police.

Lawful orders, of course. I didn't see a whole lot of lawful. It definitely is more sensible to keep mouth shut and sue later - but in a free society, someone brave enough to protest injustice shouldn't be criticised for that.

Saw a lot of confusing and contradictory orders from the cops, and an LT playing stupid about his rights there and then ,when de-escalating and complying would be the better option in the moment. Keepit together until you get to lawyer up as he is g right

No argument there at all- doing some further reading, it seems towns in this area are known for poor policing standards. Amazing how a small town here that might justify a couple of guards here is able to run its own independent force there with very little oversight and fairly dodgy hiring / training practices

.

True that, but then again you have big forces like LAPD having the same problem, as does any police force.What the bigger problem IMO with the US police is they are hiring alot of Ex military personnel, who haven't been properly "Deactivated" What you could do out in Bagdad or Khandar doesn't apply too well in Baltimore or Kansas. Both policing systems have their pros and cons of voting in your local Sheriff or appointing your police chief by political appointment.

If it wasn't so tragic it'd be funny.

Fact!!

tudderone

Not to mention that the job of police officer in a lot of places in America is not well paid at all, leads to it not attracting the best for the job. More of a case of take what you can get.

BattleCorp

Mellor wrote: »

Pulling over in a well lit and safe place is pretty standard. Traffic police should be used to that.
Was the paper tag issued by the state? If so then it's not the drivers fault that it's the system. Even if hard to see, the very first thing the officer should have done was check for a tag. He didn't. He first action was to pull a gun and give confusing orders, then pepper spray the guy.
He's been fired. And rightfully so. Hope he gets nailed in civil court too.

Is it a lawful request for the cops to ask you to step out of the car if they think you don't have the correct 'tag'?

tudderone

CNN blabbermouth admitting what everyone knew anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4R_p-qG0wQ

tudderone

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

civdef

Officers being killed by traffic on stops is the least of the problems on a routine stop.

That perception is a big part of the problem, and it's not just a US thing.
Good resources:

https://www.policemag.com/340410/the-hazards-of-traffic-stops
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2484&context=mlr

Since the cops claimed it was another reason they pulled him over.... But even if he had a CCW,thats null and void once you are on Uncle Sams property,be it a military base, courthouse, school,prision etc, and esp if you are serving! Even if it is on base accommodation.
Unless the base commander and your CO has cleared you to carry to and from or on the base, its a question then for the military police.

If these two were MP's on base it would be relevant. Public road, civilian cops - none of their business.

civdef

tudderone wrote: »

What qualifications does Greta Thunberg have to be bleating on, on media worldwide about something as complex as climate ?

If she was challenging the worldwide scientific consensus, I'd certainly question her credentials to do so. But she isn't!

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

Dunno about carrying them across personally but shipping wise I believe if stuff is sent from NI to here it gets charged vat/duty/customs etc in the same manner as stuff from the rest of the UK.

AFAIK anyway.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

Anyone know the situation with importing items generally from the north ? Is duty to be paid when they cross the border ?

I bought a few things recently and there was no extra charges, as far as I know the North is classed as still in the EU as well as the UK.

tudderone

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Dunno about carrying them across personally but shipping wise I believe if stuff is sent from NI to here it gets charged vat/duty/customs etc in the same manner as stuff from the rest of the UK.

AFAIK anyway.

I thought the border was now down the middle of the Irish sea and there was no border on the Island ? I am looking at getting tools from the north, i got an offer on some and want to know am i going to get squeezed by vat/duty

otmmyboy2

tudderone wrote: »

I thought the border was now down the middle of the Irish sea and there was no border on the Island ? I am looking at getting tools from the north, i got an offer on some and want to know am i going to get squeezed by vat/duty

Maybe it's been changed but I remember reading that from NI to Ireland was going to be the customs line, but open to correction on that.

If the stuff Rows Grower ordered was over €22 and got through with nothing added then happily I stand corrected, and I'll be making an order or two aswell

EDIT:
I stand corrected, according to KPMG:
"The terms of the revised NI Protocol mean an all-Ireland economy is preserved with no Tariffs, customs controls or border checks applied to the trade in goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland allowing for frictionless trade North/South."
https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/12/brexit-vat-and-customs.html

EDIT 2:
Revenue seems to say the same:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses-trading-with-ni/vat-trade-with-ni-after-transition/trade-in-goods-with-northern-ireland.aspx

tudderone

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Maybe it's been changed but I remember reading that from NI to Ireland was going to be the customs line, but open to correction on that.

If the stuff Rows Grower ordered was over €22 and got through with nothing added then happily I stand corrected, and I'll be making an order or two aswell

EDIT:
I stand corrected, according to KPMG:
"The terms of the revised NI Protocol mean an all-Ireland economy is preserved with no Tariffs, customs controls or border checks applied to the trade in goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland allowing for frictionless trade North/South."
https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/12/brexit-vat-and-customs.html

EDIT 2:
Revenue seems to say the same:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses-trading-with-ni/vat-trade-with-ni-after-transition/trade-in-goods-with-northern-ireland.aspx

Thanks for taking the time to post that Otmmyboy.

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

That perception is a big part of the problem, and it's not just a US thing.
Good resources:

https://www.policemag.com/340410/the-hazards-of-traffic-stops
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2484&context=mlr

Haven't read fully the 2nd article yet.But the first is making a lot of my points about why cops are soo lerry and cocked on routine traffic stops.

If these two were MP's on base it would be relevant. Public road, civilian cops - none of their business.

Missing the point. He might have been legal by carrying a CWP in a public place But he came FROM, apparently work IE the base. So in that case he was illegally[?] carrying it on base. Which if he had it in his possession on the base area, would also be a violation of his CWP.This is why a lot of people are making a big deal of it.

Now,if he had stored it, say in a locker in a gym say, or a left luggage locker ,a friends house etc or before going anywhere near the base, he's good to go and that negates any US military investigation as well, or he has the authorisation from his C/O to carry on the base?AND destroys the cop's arguments too, as it is irrelevant anyway as it was a moving vehicle violation they were supposedly pulling him over for.

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

Pulling over in a well lit and safe place is pretty standard. Traffic police should be used to that.
Was the paper tag issued by the state? If so then it's not the drivers fault that it's the system. Even if hard to see, the very first thing the officer should have done was check for a tag. He didn't. He first action was to pull a gun and give confusing orders, then pepper spray the guy.
He's been fired. And rightfully so. Hope he gets nailed in civil court too.

The Tag if I rightly remember from buying a car over is a dealer issued on the behalf of the state, to allow you to drive until your state-issued plates arrive.That you apply for thru the Dept of Motor Vechicles for the State.
So he was legit and displaying it legally, and it is still visible on the back window, despite the tint. Maybe not the fine detail, but that could have been sorted with a torch and 20 seconds on looking at it and tipping in the details into the computer. Now it might not come back as registered to the owner's new name, as it can take,like anywhere,a few days to pop up. Well it did in my case, but that was 25 plus years ago, So I'd assume it's quicker now but in that case, you'd just keep the dealer receipt or title with you to prove such.

So yeah an utter shambles from the word go on dealing with this situation.

Grizzly 45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

civdef wrote: »

If she was challenging tthe worldwide scientific consensus, I'd certainly question her credentials to do so. But she isn't!

Which side should we listen to oh all-knowing, Soros financed sock puppet, Greta?? The one side of qualified scientists and academics who say it is as bunkum

Or the crowd who have been caught out, and bought out trying to fit the facts to suit their agenda in the Climategate scandal and dodgy hockey stick graphs and computer programmes and haven't had ONE prediction of climate alarmism come true since they assured us with [JUNK] Science since 1964 would happen in the 1960s, then the 70s, well ok! The 80s then! What we meant was really the 90s!... Oh well deffo in the Oughties...Definitely by the 2020s and no doubt by the 2030s, and we'll hedge our bets by the 2050s!!! as THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED[!Cos we say so!:D] Maybe they are...Take it away Brian!

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Which side should we listen to oh all-knowing, Soros financed sock puppet, Greta?? The one side of qualified scientists and academics who say it is as bunkum

Well it’s fairly clear which side of the debate you fall on here- but will you admit that the number of real scientists (lets define that as people with PhDs in peer reviewed journals in a relevant topic) on one side massively outnumber the other?

otmmyboy2

Now I have no love for the unelected EU Commission, but it would definitely tickle me if they slapped down the government's hotel quarantine nonsense:


My favorite quotes:

“The Commission is looking into these measures as there are some concerns in relation to the general principles of EU law, in particular proportionality and non-discrimination,” a Commission spokesman said.

It comes after the five countries concerned launched a diplomatic push against the measure, with Italian ambassador to Ireland Paolo Serpi describing it at “discriminatory” and calling for its immediate cancellation.

civdef

I don't get it. You have a problem with visitors being restricted to Ireland in the middle of a global pandemic?

One of the big lessons from 2020 is that measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly.

otmmyboy2

civdef wrote: »

I don't get it. You have a problem with visitors being restricted to Ireland in the middle of a global pandemic?

One of the big lessons from 2020 is that measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly.

I have a problem with the arbitrary and somewhat nonsensical nature of Ireland's hotel quarantine policy, most especially:
it's lack of accounting for those already vaccinated and tested prior to arrival,
it's lack of accountability,
it's exorbitant cost,
it's supposed exemptions on compassionate grounds not being applied in a reasonable and fair manner(see the numerous high court cases being run through currently),
it's implementation at this exceedingly late stage,
it's effectiveness, given the positivity rate of tests from travellers quarantined in hotels thus far,
it's legality(with regards to both EU and Irish law),
the lack of adequate facilities(both in numbers and appropriateness) for families, those with special medical needs, special needs, etc,
it's administration by the military,
it being applied seemingly arbitrarily(to some countries on the basis of their case levels, etc but not to others with similar or higher risk),
the exemption of state officials & politicians(I was unaware that job title protected you from covid, either getting or carrying it),
the lack of exemption for essential business travel,
the appeals process only being available once you have already booked, paid, arrived and been processed in,


I'm sure there are more but those are some off the top of my head.

You yourself mention

measures like this should have been applied much much more quickly

.
Personally I think this measure, particularly for EU countries and the US as a whole rather on a state by state basis, is another case of shutting the barn door after the horses have gone, been free, died of old age and already buried. :P

Also one final point,

middle of a global pandemic

?
Leo not ruling out another lockdown next Christmas would make that 21 months since normality ended.

I don't think middle is on the cards here, and also if that Christmas 2021 lockdown does come to fruition I think the entire gov should be thrown out for mismanagement of this pile of manure.
21 months and still using the big stick, with evidently still no other plan or approach bar rolling lockdowns until some arbitrary vaccination number has been reached?
Come on, that is utterly pathetic.