Emissions Discussion [Split Post]

I'm much more concerned about the actual toxic emissions, not Co2, which is a harmless gas.

Water John

Large diesel engines in lorries are cleaner than diesel cars.

punisher5112

punisher5112 wrote: »

No you are all wrong adblue fixes everything...... Not.

I work around Dublin and find the fumes off some large vehicles cause breathing issues if sucking in the fumes spewed out.

Yes we have a large old fleet of deadly diesels in Ireland, Old Taxi's , Vans, Trucks, Buses etc.

Water John

Mas Lad, you love your co2.

Don't care for it to be honest. Just hate all the BS around it spewed by the media. There are far greater issues , diesel exhaust , the burning of fossil fuels in general which damage the environment and human health, the over use of chemicals in food, on the land in the water, GM foods being sneaked into the food chain most of which gets very little media attention. Light pollution.......

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Theres no data for all the toxins that power stations pump out so just have to go with co2.

Ireland electricty production pumps out on average 500g co2/kW. 17kwh/100km gives you about 85g co2/km. Which is very good, but not zero.

Are these the figures you used to determine that EV is more polluting than diesel or is there more?

Outside of these figures don't you think it's better that the emissions are in controlled power stations rather than on our streets?

And as pointed out the CO2 isn't the pollutant that matters in this case so I think your diesel is less polluting than EV opinion is misplaced.

650Ginge

KCross wrote: »

Are these the figures you used to determine that EV is more polluting than diesel or is there more?

Outside of these figures don't you think it's better that the emissions are in controlled power stations rather than on our streets?

And as pointed out the CO2 isn't the pollutant that matters in this case so I think your diesel is less polluting than EV opinion is misplaced.

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

BoatMad

650Ginge wrote: »

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

Sorry, these " power station" comparisons are nonsense

try adding back the pollution , co2 and other noxious products used to produce the petrol or diesel in the first place.

A diesel car has two centre off pollution , the car, and the process producing the fuel

you cannot just cherry pick

my electricity supplier posts 40-60% renewables on average, you have failed to factor that in

The point is , its an apples and oranges comparison

The only one you can make is that an EV is a zero emissions vehicle at the point of pollution , a diesel or petrol is a net generator of pollution at the point of delivery

650Ginge

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry, these " power station" comparisons are nonsense

try adding back the pollution , co2 and other noxious products used to produce the petrol or diesel in the first place.

A diesel car has two centre off pollution , the car, and the process producing the fuel

you cannot just cherry pick

my electricity supplier posts 40-60% renewables on average, you have failed to factor that in

The point is , its an apples and oranges comparison

The only one you can make is that an EV is a zero emissions vehicle at the point of pollution , a diesel or petrol is a net generator of pollution at the point of delivery

Average co2 figures for electricity production in Ireland are published just look them up. So is the % of renewable that make up total production. Again look it up nothing near 40-60% in total. But I'm sure your supply is right about what you use.

It's buying fuel to make cars move....no apples or oranges.

Fuel burnt in power stations has to be mined, refined, transported too.

Isn't there huge losses on the electricity network too. Even the last piece of that network the electric car charger is only 75 efficient. All those pylons, substations, etc....

I dunno have you ever got any data for yourself and tried to work it out.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

Base those figures on the "Real" emissions of Diesels and see what you get. Then add to that the fact diesels are emitting up to 40 times the allowed Nox emissions ? seriously, diesels need to be banned.

Again you're seeing Co2 only.....

If they'd put half the effort and money into more research as to the effects of diesel exhaust on the environment and Human health as they do Anthropogenic warming then I'd be happy.......

grogi

650Ginge wrote: »

Average co2 figures for electricity production in Ireland are published just look them up. So is the % of renewable that make up total production. Again look it up nothing near 40-60% in total. But I'm sure your supply is right about what you use.

Pics or it didn't happen...

You are bringing the figure to the table, bring the source.

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Base those figures on the "Real" emissions of Diesels and see what you get. Then add to that the fact diesels are emitting up to 40 times the allowed Nox emissions ? seriously, diesels need to be banned.

Again you're seeing Co2 only.....

If they'd put half the effort and money into more research as to the effects of diesel exhaust on the environment and Human health as they do Anthropogenic warming then I'd be happy.......

Ah I give up. I'm not standing up for diesel you lot.

You're giving Co2 figures of Diesels that's based on the NEDC BullSh1t test, in reality they're much higher.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

Not that nonsense again. Did you read that somewhere on the main Motors forum? Saw that stated many times over there. Was never bothered to reply, but I can't have that in here

Cargo ships are the most efficient form of transport, probably also the most environmentally friendly, were it not for the fact their engines are unregulated and most of them use dirty cheap fuel, which is high in sulphur oxides. That is all. And to put things into perspective, the emissions of sulphur oxides from volcanoes is far greater than the emissions of sulphur oxides from all man made things put together.

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Ah I give up. I'm not standing up for diesel you lot.

But you are. You clearly said diesel is less polluting than EV in Ireland!

I don't know how you can rationally come to that conclusion.

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Not that nonsense again. Did you read that somewhere on the main Motors forum? Saw that stated many times over there. Was never bothered to reply, but I can't have that in here

Cargo ships are the most efficient form of transport, probably also the most environmentally friendly, were it not for the fact their engines are unregulated and most of them use dirty cheap fuel, which is high in sulphur oxides. That is all. And to put things into perspective, the emissions of sulphur oxides from volcanoes is far greater than the emissions of sulphur oxides from all man made things put together.

Cant remember exactly were I seen it but they are terrible on the environment. A quick google got me to this wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_shipping#Atmospheric_pollution

A car ferry going to Hollyhead uses something like 50,000tonnes of heavy oil.

Cows farts gives out more toxic gas than private cars do, seriously they do.

650Ginge

KCross wrote: »

But you are. You clearly said diesel is less polluting than EV in Ireland!

I don't know how you can rationally come to that conclusion.

Read the bits you want to read and ignore the bits you want, thats how it is is it?

I WANT TO GET RID OF DIESELS.....FULL STOP

I WANT ALL CARS TO BE ELECTRIC, THE MORE EFFICIENT THE BETTER, LIKE THE IONIQ

Is that clear enough?

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

Cows farts gives out more toxic gas than private cars do, seriously they do.

Methane is not toxic ? like Co2 !

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Methane is not toxic ? like Co2 !

Well in the absence of oxygen it will kill you.

But it could power your leaf if we were smart like those monks outside Navan.

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Read the bits you want to read and ignore the bits you want, thats how it is is it?

I WANT TO GET RID OF DIESELS.....FULL STOP

I WANT ALL CARS TO BE ELECTRIC, THE MORE EFFICIENT THE BETTER, LIKE THE IONIQ

Is that clear enough?

You may want EV over diesel but saying diesel is less polluting is indirectly standing up for diesel, that's my point.

Your figures and reasons for that statement just don't stand up to scrutiny.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

A car ferry going to Hollyhead uses something like 50,000tonnes of heavy oil.

Seriously dude, where do you get all this nonsense?

Irish Ferries uses 100,000 tonnes of heavy oil. Per year. For the whole fleet. For all of their routes together.

650Ginge

KCross wrote: »

You may want EV over diesel but saying diesel is less polluting is indirectly standing up for diesel, that's my point.

Your figures and reasons for that statement just don't stand up to scrutiny.

Scrutiny should surely be a little bit more rigorous than you saying they are wrong.

Maybe you get figures and prove me wrong.....I'm very happy to be proved wrong on this one.

BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE DIESEL.

grogi

650Ginge wrote: »

Scrutiny should surely be a little bit more rigorous than you saying they are wrong.

Maybe you get figures and prove me wrong.....I'm very happy to be proved wrong on this one.

BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE DIESEL.

http://www.seai.ie/News_Events/Press_Releases/2016/Energy-Use-and-Associated-CO2-emissions-increased-in-2015.html

In 2015 it was 468g/kWh.
Now let's assume a generous 15 kWh/100km for an EV - that gives us 70g CO₂/km. Yes, much more than any diesel out there...

Not to mention other sh1te like NOₓ, PM or HC...

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Scrutiny should surely be a little bit more rigorous than you saying they are wrong.

Maybe you get figures and prove me wrong.....I'm very happy to be proved wrong on this one.

BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE DIESEL.

The only figures you've provided are co2 figures which doesn't prove your conclusion of diesel is less polluting while ignoring the real pollutants.

You then say you don't like diesel and want rid of it but if it's less polluting why say that!!!!

Nothing your saying makes sense.

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Seriously dude, where do you get all this nonsense?

Irish Ferries uses 100,000 tonnes of heavy oil. Per year. For the whole fleet. For all of their routes together.

I meant litres it is on the information plaque on the ship.

Simple mistake.

Which other bit was nonsense? Was there something wrong the link about the environmental impact of shipping I posted?

http://www.carbontracking.com/reports/irish_ferries_emissions_calculation.pdf

650Ginge

grogi wrote: »

http://www.seai.ie/News_Events/Press_Releases/2016/Energy-Use-and-Associated-CO2-emissions-increased-in-2015.html

In 2015 it was 468g/kWh.
Now let's assume a generous 15 kWh/100km for an EV - that gives us 70g CO₂/km. Yes, much more than any diesel out there...

Not to mention other sh1te like NOₓ, PM or HC...

Yeah fair enough I don't know of any diesels that get to 70g CO2/km.

You are not allowing for losses on the car charger or the network itself. 468g/kWh is at the power station.

http://teslaliving.net/2014/07/07/measuring-ev-charging-efficiency/

http://ireland2050.ie/questions/how-efficient-will-new-infrastructure-be/

We don't know what the power stations are pumping out in the way of other sh1te either. I am going to guess they mis-represent just as bad as any car brand.

I found this report, interesting reading even if it doesn't include Ireland.

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/paraguay-is-the-greenest-place-on-earth-to-drive-an-electric-car

peposhi

650Ginge wrote: »

What are getting so angry about?

I'm not saying diesels or petrol are good....they aren't but electricity generation in this country isn't clean either. If it was the EU wouldn't fining us.

Not sure why you thought I was angry... Not at all... I just disagree with you


Here is a quote for you:
"The Union of Concerned Scientists24 came up with a way to directly compare car emissions, regardless of the type of car it is—a metric called “miles per gallon equivalent,†or MPGghg (ghg stands for greenhouse gases).

MPGghg is how many miles per gallon a gas car would need to achieve in order to match the carbon emissions of an EV (in the EV’s case, the emissions come from the plant that makes the electricity). In other words, if an EV gets 40 MPGghg, it means it emits the exact same amount of carbon as a gas car that gets 40 MPG.

The average new gas car gets 23 MPG. Anything above 30 MPG is really good for a gas car, and anything below 15 or 17 is bad. For reference, remember that an EV running on just coal-produced electricity would have an MPGghg of 30 (so even in a hypothetical entirely coal-powered state, an EV would be the same as a highly efficient gas car), and an EV running on just natural gas-powered electricity would have an MPGghg of 54 and just top the Toyota Prius, which runs at 50 MPG."


And this is the article I would strongly suggest you to read:

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html

Plenty of data and graphs to clear the things up.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

I meant litres it is on the information plaque on the ship.

Simple mistake.

Oh of course it was a simple mistake. Just as simple as your "fact" that 15
big ships pollute more than all of the cars in this world. How could you even accept a statement like that without your brain going into overdrive that it doesn't make sense???

I suppose Irish people have been brainwashed for many centuries by the catholic church, I guess it could be expected not all of that is gone by now

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Oh of course it was a simple mistake. Just as simple as your "fact" that 15
big ships pollute more than all of the cars in this world. How could you even accept a statement like that without your brain going into overdrive that it doesn't make sense???

I suppose Irish people have been brainwashed for many centuries by the catholic church, I guess it could be expected not all of that is gone by now

Well,

1. I am not Irish, so it seems your jockeying for the title of worlds biggest know it all know f-all still needs some work.

2. I still stand buy the fact that 15 of the world biggest cargo ship produce more emission all the world cars...(I have had a chance to check it and whilst it is hard to believe anything you read these days it does appear to be in that ballpark, admittedly seems to stem from 2009 data)...they might be more efficient by a measure of your choosing, but they emit more sh1te.

Maybe you could have googled it yourself, but since you didn't, here you go.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars

http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-15-biggest-ships-create-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182

Cruise ships don't seem great either
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/21/the-worlds-largest-cruise-ship-and-its-supersized-pollution-problem

Fiery mutant

Why when arguments lik this do people go all the way back in the chain to power stations, cargo ships etc to say that EV's are more polluting. It's a ridiculous argument.

Petrol and diesel cars are transported via cargo ships, power stations generate the power for the petrol and diesel stations dotted around every street corner to operate.

So every argument that can be grown at EV's applies to petrol and diesel cars as well.

The simple things is after all these factors are taken into account, EV's are more environmentally friendly, more efficient, and better Fukin fun.