Emissions Discussion [Split Post]

unkel

Aye. And efficiency by itself is not important at all. After all charging in Ireland is free or at worst very cheap (night rates). The only reason it's good thing is that it helps the range so a cheap car like an Ioniq can go 200-300km today. In a few years time a crossover brick SUV / MPV will cost about the same and will go even further because of its 60kWh battery

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Aye. And efficiency by itself is not important at all. After all charging in Ireland is free or at worst very cheap (night rates). The only reason it's good thing is that it helps the range so a cheap car like an Ioniq can go 200-300km today. In a few years time a crossover brick SUV / MPV will cost about the same and will go even further because of its 60kWh battery

OK we got it....you don't care about efficiency and you drive fast. Give over about for a while will ya.

It's so disappointing that electric car drivers only care about their pocket don't seem to give a care about that amount of mostly very polluting energy they are using and aren't interested in environment at all.

That dashboard for eirgrid even seems to have pulled the co2 figures. But the way we generate power in Ireland electric cars aren't clean, so yep efficiency still matters.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

That's fantastic.
If I'm honest I thought my Leaf would have been more efficient in the city.
I currently 99.9% city driving and I average 18kw/100km.

I had it down to 17 on a Dublin-Cavan trip.
Now I don't fly around the place but I don't drive it like miss daisy either.

That's weird, the last week or so I'm averaging 12-13 Kwh/100 kms at faster than city speeds.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

It's very simple. Ioniq is a 200km motorway (100km/h) or 300km city / mixed driving car. Less obviously on the handful of cold days we have in winter. But even Nyland got nearly 200km out of it in the middle of winter in Norway (-7C). I do have regen at 2 though, I get the impression that makes the car very efficient. 3 is too aggressive for me and 2 is too aggressive on motorways, so then I switch it to 1 (for those unfamiliar, it goes from 0 to 3 with 0 being no regen at all)

Handful of cold days ? well at 10 Deg C, wet roads and 110 Kph I wouldn't have been able to achieve more than 180 Kms max over 207 Kms and the last 80 or so kms would have been maybe 3 degrees warmer and dry roads and 100 Kph max speeds. Perhaps at 100 Kph I could have hit a lot closer to 200 Kms.

In Ireland it gets below 0 a lot more than you might think, even if it is only for a few hrs that's mainly the morning commute and we also get a lot of wind and rain.

We need a lot more ev makes and models, and efficiency is going to be better and worse for each model, I'd like a larger EV preferably an estate. This isn't going to be as efficient but what do I care ? I don't really, electricity is too cheap to care and as long as I have the range to meet all my driving with the occasional fast charge I'm happy.

For me a larger more expensive battery in a larger less efficient EV is worth a lot more than saving a few cent or getting 20-30 Km more range.

unkel

Exactly. Choice is very poor at the moment.

Deleted User wrote: »

In Ireland it gets below 0 a lot more than you might think

I don't know about that. Just thinking how many mornings do I actually have to scrape the ice off the windows? Maybe 5 days per year? But that's in Dublin, close enough to the sea (a bit over 10km as the crow flies) and at sea level. Could be very different in other places of course.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

OK we got it....you don't care about efficiency and you drive fast. Give over about for a while will ya.

It's so disappointing that electric car drivers only care about their pocket don't seem to give a care about that amount of mostly very polluting energy they are using and aren't interested in environment at all.

So what do you drive, Mr Hippy? :rolleyes:

And how do you heat your water?

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

So what do you drive, Mr Hippy? :rolleyes:

And how do you heat your water?

Oh, I am a complete hypocrite.

Water John

Well, it isn't the fault of EV drivers that Denis Naughton, the same as other Ministers before him, won't get the finger out.

Fines of €600M beckon in 2020.

Sure the tax payer will just silently pay it , why introduce measures that might get people annoyed that they have to pay more, for instance, the Government can easily, silently pay out fines rather than increase Diesel motor tax by 300 Euro's for instance or increase ICE VRT by 30% etc etc or put an extra 50 C/litre on Diesel, all these things will get the public screaming and the Government don't want to deal with the reality of it all both the emissions problems and the public.

What's the betting the all Island smokey coal ban won't come into effect in 2018 like planned either........

650Ginge

Water John wrote: »

Well, it isn't the fault of EV drivers that Denis Naughton, the same as other Ministers before him, won't get the finger out.

Fines of €600M beckon in 2020.

Time to take a bit of responsibility for what we can do as an individual and not just kick the can to someone else.

My choice of car isn't ideal but using the data on fuelly and spritmonitor I'm in the top 9% for economy. And my last tank was a best tank so hopefully I'll move up that list.

When I get an EV I hope I can manage the same with it.

Just on that getting an EV. Looking on donedeal the demo Ioniqs are more expensive that the new Ioniqs? 😕

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure the tax payer will just silently pay it , why introduce measures that might get people annoyed that they have to pay more, for instance, the Government can easily, silently pay out fines rather than increase Diesel motor tax by 300 Euro's for instance or increase ICE VRT by 30% etc etc or put an extra 50 C/litre on Diesel, all these things will get the public screaming and the Government don't want to deal with the reality of it all both the emissions problems and the public.

What's the betting the all Island smokey coal ban won't come into effect in 2018 like planned either........

We got people converted to diesel by incentives. I would think it much fairer if we do the same to get them out of diesels.

Why hit some poor joe for doing what he was encouraged to do?

goz83

650Ginge wrote: »

We got people converted to diesel by incentives. I would think it much fairer if we do the same to get them out of diesels.

Why hit some poor joe for doing what he was encouraged to do?

It should be incentive enough to stop poisoning everyone with dirty diesel fumes.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

That's weird, the last week or so I'm averaging 12-13 Kwh/100 kms at faster than city speeds.

Not sure if it's my driving style, tyre choice or the fact my brakes were possibly sticking a bit or a combination of all 3.

650Ginge

goz83 wrote: »

It should be incentive enough to stop poisoning everyone with dirty diesel fumes.

Get real no one gives monkies about that....
This just went full circle.....
because if electric car drivers did they would care about reducing the emmissons they generate via power stations.
Power stations that are so dirty we get hit for €100millions of fines from the EU....destroy large areas of bog......we import the coal we use on cago ships....the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

So you have no moral high ground on deadly emissions because you went EV....not yet in this country.

Electric car drivers in the main like everyone else just care how much money they save and boasting that they don't hanging around.

Bif

650Ginge wrote: »

Get real no one gives monkies about that....
This just went full circle.....
because if electric car drivers did they would care about reducing the emmissons they generate via power stations.
Power stations that are so dirty we get hit for €100millions of fines from the EU....destroy large areas of bog......we import the coal we use on cago ships....the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

So you have no moral high ground on deadly emissions because you went EV....not yet in this country.

Electric car drivers in the main like everyone else just care how much money they save and boasting that they don't hanging around.

Is it not possible that EVs charged at night can use wind power that otherwise has no use?

650Ginge

Bif wrote: »

Is it not possible that EVs charged at night can use wind power that otherwise has no use?

Yes I would imagine so. But wind generation rates are still very low seem to average under 20% on the eirgrid dashboard.

Bif

650Ginge wrote: »

Yes I would imagine so. But wind generation rates are still very low seem to average under 20% on the eirgrid dashboard.

I imagine there is a lot more than 20% at night. Over 3000 mw of wind capacity on the system as well as hydro if running. If organised right it could work very well. Houses running on pv panels may also be used to charge cars in the future I imagine. It's heading in the right direction but needs massive support.

aliveandkicking

650Ginge wrote: »

Yes I would imagine so. But wind generation rates are still very low seem to average under 20% on the eirgrid dashboard.

Well then that's at least 20% better than diesels (and not even getting into the pollution created from oil refinaries etc. or the fact that 60%+ of our electricity is generated by gas) so EV drivers in this country do have the moral highground on emissions over diesels

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

We got people converted to diesel by incentives. I would think it much fairer if we do the same to get them out of diesels.

Why hit some poor joe for doing what he was encouraged to do?

Yes we did, they made diesels a lot cheaper to own and run, turning it the other way would cause major uproar in Ireland.

First of all the major problem is lack of choice, not everyone wants a 120-180 Km range EV or can even afford one.

Not everyone wants a Leaf or Zoe. The Ioniq is restricted in it's production and the E-golf is priced so it's more attractive for people to buy TDI's.

The I3 looks weird and is pretty expensive.

Make petrols a lot cheaper and diesel sales will drop like a stone and it would help solve a lot of the diesel related pollution, the real pollution but it won't solve the Co2 problem if you want to call it that lol.

Sadly the Government lack the will power and brains to do anything about it.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

Yes I would imagine so. But wind generation rates are still very low seem to average under 20% on the eirgrid dashboard.

On some days/nights wind accounts for up to 60% on the grid and electrics charging can take full advantage, storage heaters etc.

The Grid can take 60% renewable max, next year 65%. The problem is there is no Solar PV on the Grid because we got to much wind energy at peak times and the wind doesn't blow enough to generate 60% 24x7 ,the grid can't take it and we couldn't export it because the capacity of the interconnector to the U.K wouldn't take it.

We need a prober balance of wind and solar PV that balance isn't there because someone somewhere deemed it a good idea to support wind energy only or some idiot probably thought Solar PV isn't suitable for Ireland. Well it is and it's proven.

peposhi

650Ginge wrote:

Get real no one gives monkies about that.... This just went full circle..... because if electric car drivers did they would care about reducing the emmissons they generate via power stations. Power stations that are so dirty we get hit for €100millions of fines from the EU....destroy large areas of bog......we import the coal we use on cago ships....the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

So how do the bloody oil/diesel/petrol gets transported around the world?!? Same cargo ships? The amount of tankers that have sunk over the time and destroyed the natural life in the area...

fricatus

peposhi wrote: »

So how do the bloody oil/diesel/petrol gets transported around the world?!? Same cargo ships? The amount of tankers that have sunk over the time and destroyed the natural life in the area...

Not just that, but the amount of electricity needed to refine a litre of petrol or diesel (which would get you about 15 km) is about the same needed to power an EV for about 7 km. So by not burning a litre of diesel, you're also cutting out the emissions required to produce 7 km of electricity (whatever the hell that would be in kw/h).

BTW, my source for that is a video on YouTube in the Fully Charged series.

650Ginge

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Well then that's at least 20% better than diesels (and not even getting into the pollution created from oil refinaries etc. or the fact that 60%+ of our electricity is generated by gas) so EV drivers in this country do have the moral highground on emissions over diesels

Even with that 20% wind EV's are still bigger polluters than petrols/diesels.

If you take a look at the maths you will unfortunately find that it is true. I am happy to be proved wrong here.

Private transportation is a bit of a fall guy for pollution but it only makes up 17% of world pollution, farming makes up a high percentage for instance.

I was totally surprised and shocked when I worked out what the pollution emitted from EV's via power stations was. It doesn't have to be that way and in countries like Norway it isn't. The Ioniq efficiency is a big step forward, when I see people getting 10.9kWh for 100kms compares to the Model S which seems to struggle to get below 30kWh for 100kms.

Makes it worse to see that the electric car owners think that because it is cheap that they will drive more and less efficiently, more kilometres driven, more pollution. More kilometres driven more traffic.

Some experts predict that because the electric car usage is so cheap and at the fore front of autonomous driving that they will make congestion considerably worse. At least short term until cars start to talk to each other.

I hope in the future(and I mean well into the future) that there will only be electric cars, but no private ownership.

Most cars spend most of there time not being used, cars will be pooled and you simple call one using an UBER style app and it will come get you from a base or because they had been routed nearby on another task and they will take you where you want to go and then go get the next one.

I live 12kms from the nearest town, its a 20,000 person town. I reckon the number of cars it would take to service that town would be quite small maybe 50 in total, resulting in minimal waiting times given the right software running it.

Ah just a dream probably. We are stubborn and selfish us humans, then there is the corporate interest to get past that keeps thinking up new ways to sell us more of everything.

Now back to you guys that actually own Ioniqs, apologies for ranting on your thread.

Water John

The majority of people in both Paris and London now favour, because of pollution, a ban on diesels in their cities.

goz83

650Ginge wrote: »

Get real no one gives monkies about that....
This just went full circle.....
because if electric car drivers did they would care about reducing the emmissons they generate via power stations.
Power stations that are so dirty we get hit for €100millions of fines from the EU....destroy large areas of bog......we import the coal we use on cago ships....the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

So you have no moral high ground on deadly emissions because you went EV....not yet in this country.

Electric car drivers in the main like everyone else just care how much money they save and boasting that they don't hanging around.

Electricity doesn't need fossil fuel. Our grid might have a heavy dependence of fossil fuels, but we also burn alot of Gas to produce electricity, which is quite clean in comparison. Lets not forget that our renewable sources are increasing each year, mainly wind.

Now, maybe i'm just ignorant, but you'll have to explain how an EV is more polluting than a Diesel car (mile for mile). To keep the thread somewhat on topic, you can even use the Ioniq as the example and compare to a Diesel. or Petrol car. I think it's already been pointed out that electricity is used to refine petrol/diesel.

Give me minute....the popcorn is nearly ready.

An ICE would drive about 24 Kms on the available power of a 24 Kwh Leaf. And that's before the Petrol and diesel has been refined and transported from God knows where.

650Ginge

peposhi wrote: »

So how do the bloody oil/diesel/petrol gets transported around the world?!? Same cargo ships? The amount of tankers that have sunk over the time and destroyed the natural life in the area...

What are getting so angry about?

I'm not saying diesels or petrol are good....they aren't but electricity generation in this country isn't clean either. If it was the EU wouldn't fining us.

It's a lot cleaner than diesel, the EU are fining us for Co2 emissions not pollution, there is a massive, massive difference , Co2 isn't harmful to Humans or the environment and one reason Diesel was banned in most U.S state for decades. !!!

Diesel was promoted in the E.U for it's lower Co2 despite the dangers of diesel exhaust being well known the Governments were fooled into thinking the DPF was the solution, what fools !!!

650Ginge

goz83 wrote: »

Electricity doesn't need fossil fuel. Our grid might have a heavy dependence of fossil fuels, but we also burn alot of Gas to produce electricity, which is quite clean in comparison. Lets not forget that our renewable sources are increasing each year, mainly wind.

Now, maybe i'm just ignorant, but you'll have to explain how an EV is more polluting than a Diesel car (mile for mile). To keep the thread somewhat on topic, you can even use the Ioniq as the example and compare to a Diesel. or Petrol car. I think it's already been pointed out that electricity is used to refine petrol/diesel.

Give me minute....the popcorn is nearly ready.

Theres no data for all the toxins that power stations pump out so just have to go with co2.

Ireland electricty production pumps out on average 500g co2/kW. 17kwh/100km gives you about 85g co2/km. Which is very good, but not zero.

If you do popcorn on gas keep an eye on it....it cooks really quickly. ðŸ˜႒

punisher5112

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a lot cleaner than diesel, the EU are fining us for Co2 emissions not pollution, there is a massive, massive difference , Co2 isn't harmful to Humans or the environment and one reason Diesel was banned in most U.S state for decades. !!!

Diesel was promoted in the E.U for it's lower Co2 despite the dangers of diesel exhaust being well known the Governments were fooled into thinking the DPF was the solution, what fools !!!

No you are all wrong adblue fixes everything...... Not.

I work around Dublin and find the fumes off some large vehicles cause breathing issues if sucking in the fumes spewed out.

I'm much more concerned about the actual toxic emissions, not Co2, which is a harmless gas.

Water John

Large diesel engines in lorries are cleaner than diesel cars.

punisher5112

punisher5112 wrote: »

No you are all wrong adblue fixes everything...... Not.

I work around Dublin and find the fumes off some large vehicles cause breathing issues if sucking in the fumes spewed out.

Yes we have a large old fleet of deadly diesels in Ireland, Old Taxi's , Vans, Trucks, Buses etc.

Water John

Mas Lad, you love your co2.

Don't care for it to be honest. Just hate all the BS around it spewed by the media. There are far greater issues , diesel exhaust , the burning of fossil fuels in general which damage the environment and human health, the over use of chemicals in food, on the land in the water, GM foods being sneaked into the food chain most of which gets very little media attention. Light pollution.......

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Theres no data for all the toxins that power stations pump out so just have to go with co2.

Ireland electricty production pumps out on average 500g co2/kW. 17kwh/100km gives you about 85g co2/km. Which is very good, but not zero.

Are these the figures you used to determine that EV is more polluting than diesel or is there more?

Outside of these figures don't you think it's better that the emissions are in controlled power stations rather than on our streets?

And as pointed out the CO2 isn't the pollutant that matters in this case so I think your diesel is less polluting than EV opinion is misplaced.

650Ginge

KCross wrote: »

Are these the figures you used to determine that EV is more polluting than diesel or is there more?

Outside of these figures don't you think it's better that the emissions are in controlled power stations rather than on our streets?

And as pointed out the CO2 isn't the pollutant that matters in this case so I think your diesel is less polluting than EV opinion is misplaced.

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

BoatMad

650Ginge wrote: »

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

Sorry, these " power station" comparisons are nonsense

try adding back the pollution , co2 and other noxious products used to produce the petrol or diesel in the first place.

A diesel car has two centre off pollution , the car, and the process producing the fuel

you cannot just cherry pick

my electricity supplier posts 40-60% renewables on average, you have failed to factor that in

The point is , its an apples and oranges comparison

The only one you can make is that an EV is a zero emissions vehicle at the point of pollution , a diesel or petrol is a net generator of pollution at the point of delivery

650Ginge

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry, these " power station" comparisons are nonsense

try adding back the pollution , co2 and other noxious products used to produce the petrol or diesel in the first place.

A diesel car has two centre off pollution , the car, and the process producing the fuel

you cannot just cherry pick

my electricity supplier posts 40-60% renewables on average, you have failed to factor that in

The point is , its an apples and oranges comparison

The only one you can make is that an EV is a zero emissions vehicle at the point of pollution , a diesel or petrol is a net generator of pollution at the point of delivery

Average co2 figures for electricity production in Ireland are published just look them up. So is the % of renewable that make up total production. Again look it up nothing near 40-60% in total. But I'm sure your supply is right about what you use.

It's buying fuel to make cars move....no apples or oranges.

Fuel burnt in power stations has to be mined, refined, transported too.

Isn't there huge losses on the electricity network too. Even the last piece of that network the electric car charger is only 75 efficient. All those pylons, substations, etc....

I dunno have you ever got any data for yourself and tried to work it out.

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

I agree about c02 but I can't find data on the other stuff.

In fairness the most efficient ev in the world can't beat the most efficient diesel on co2.....hardly brilliant.

A model S can't beat a 520d for co2. But Bmw are likely at same rubbish as VW.

I'm on the electric side here I cycle in dublin I want see the end of diesels.

Base those figures on the "Real" emissions of Diesels and see what you get. Then add to that the fact diesels are emitting up to 40 times the allowed Nox emissions ? seriously, diesels need to be banned.

Again you're seeing Co2 only.....

If they'd put half the effort and money into more research as to the effects of diesel exhaust on the environment and Human health as they do Anthropogenic warming then I'd be happy.......

grogi

650Ginge wrote: »

Average co2 figures for electricity production in Ireland are published just look them up. So is the % of renewable that make up total production. Again look it up nothing near 40-60% in total. But I'm sure your supply is right about what you use.

Pics or it didn't happen...

You are bringing the figure to the table, bring the source.

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Base those figures on the "Real" emissions of Diesels and see what you get. Then add to that the fact diesels are emitting up to 40 times the allowed Nox emissions ? seriously, diesels need to be banned.

Again you're seeing Co2 only.....

If they'd put half the effort and money into more research as to the effects of diesel exhaust on the environment and Human health as they do Anthropogenic warming then I'd be happy.......

Ah I give up. I'm not standing up for diesel you lot.

You're giving Co2 figures of Diesels that's based on the NEDC BullSh1t test, in reality they're much higher.

unkel

650Ginge wrote: »

the largest 15 cargo ships in the world create more pollution than all the cars in the world.....

Not that nonsense again. Did you read that somewhere on the main Motors forum? Saw that stated many times over there. Was never bothered to reply, but I can't have that in here

Cargo ships are the most efficient form of transport, probably also the most environmentally friendly, were it not for the fact their engines are unregulated and most of them use dirty cheap fuel, which is high in sulphur oxides. That is all. And to put things into perspective, the emissions of sulphur oxides from volcanoes is far greater than the emissions of sulphur oxides from all man made things put together.

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Ah I give up. I'm not standing up for diesel you lot.

But you are. You clearly said diesel is less polluting than EV in Ireland!

I don't know how you can rationally come to that conclusion.

650Ginge

unkel wrote: »

Not that nonsense again. Did you read that somewhere on the main Motors forum? Saw that stated many times over there. Was never bothered to reply, but I can't have that in here

Cargo ships are the most efficient form of transport, probably also the most environmentally friendly, were it not for the fact their engines are unregulated and most of them use dirty cheap fuel, which is high in sulphur oxides. That is all. And to put things into perspective, the emissions of sulphur oxides from volcanoes is far greater than the emissions of sulphur oxides from all man made things put together.

Cant remember exactly were I seen it but they are terrible on the environment. A quick google got me to this wiki page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_shipping#Atmospheric_pollution

A car ferry going to Hollyhead uses something like 50,000tonnes of heavy oil.

Cows farts gives out more toxic gas than private cars do, seriously they do.

650Ginge

KCross wrote: »

But you are. You clearly said diesel is less polluting than EV in Ireland!

I don't know how you can rationally come to that conclusion.

Read the bits you want to read and ignore the bits you want, thats how it is is it?

I WANT TO GET RID OF DIESELS.....FULL STOP

I WANT ALL CARS TO BE ELECTRIC, THE MORE EFFICIENT THE BETTER, LIKE THE IONIQ

Is that clear enough?

650Ginge

650Ginge wrote: »

Cows farts gives out more toxic gas than private cars do, seriously they do.

Methane is not toxic ? like Co2 !

650Ginge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Methane is not toxic ? like Co2 !

Well in the absence of oxygen it will kill you.

But it could power your leaf if we were smart like those monks outside Navan.

KCross

650Ginge wrote: »

Read the bits you want to read and ignore the bits you want, thats how it is is it?

I WANT TO GET RID OF DIESELS.....FULL STOP

I WANT ALL CARS TO BE ELECTRIC, THE MORE EFFICIENT THE BETTER, LIKE THE IONIQ

Is that clear enough?

You may want EV over diesel but saying diesel is less polluting is indirectly standing up for diesel, that's my point.

Your figures and reasons for that statement just don't stand up to scrutiny.