Skangers and the Education system

Your Face

Well, that escalated quickly.

99problems

dd972 wrote:

The Irish education system is widely acknowledged as one of the best in Europe, certainly better than the English comprehensive one so what's the story with skangers/scobes/scumbags whatever you call them, is there some lower strata of duff schools that churn them out or something?

I am a product of the Irish education system , I am not a scumbag I am however an Idiot. Schools in this joke of a country are not the best in Europe by a long shot. I do not know one person that would agree with you .

CoolHandBandit

sup_dude wrote: »

Even if it isn't the parent's fault? What if the parents aren't on social welfare? Is it only the parents on social that have disruptive kids that can be punished, or is it only parents on social that have distruptive kids? Is it if all their kids are distruptive? I mean if they have two well behaved kids and one not, is it still docked?

What is going to partly solve the problem is people not making silly kneejerk calls like that, and actually figuring out and addressing the root of the problems. Alas, this is AH so dole cuts for all, common sense for none!

Nice over reaction. Where did i say dole cuts for all.

Mrs OBumble

biko wrote: »

Two opinions/statements, no sources.
The education system has indeed failed.

Here's a source - which refers to internationally recongised primary resesrch: https://www.nala.ie/literacy/literacy-in-ireland

Some key takeaways include one in six (18%) being functionally illiterate. And thats actually one of the better measures.

There are problems with genetics for sure, but at least some of the blame for this lies with the education system being inadequate.

Scangers are just the extreme end of the problem: kids born to uneducated families usually turn out the same unless theres an effective education system and a culture which allows people to change their social class. Ireland has neither.

nice_guy80

Skangers will be skangers

And it's usually passed down through the generations

No education system can fix what is instilled in them and shown to them in their homes and families.

Sleepy

Some of the kids you're refering to aren't even fed breakfast before they're dragged to school.

In most walks of life the carrot works better than the stick so perhaps we should explore incentivising the parents in socially deprived circumstances? €500 bonus in your social welfare if your child achieves a moderately high Junior Cert? €1000 for anyone on welfare whose child achieves over 500 points in the leaving?

It may seem like an odd use of taxpayers money but I think it'd make a good investment - better educated citizens almost always end up paying more taxes.

team_actimel

Sleepy wrote: »

Some of the kids you're refering to aren't even fed breakfast before they're dragged to school.

In most walks of life the carrot works better than the stick so perhaps we should explore incentivising the parents in socially deprived circumstances? €500 bonus in your social welfare if your child achieves a moderately high Junior Cert? €1000 for anyone on welfare whose child achieves over 500 points in the leaving?

It may seem like an odd use of taxpayers money but I think it'd make a good investment - better educated citizens almost always end up paying more taxes.

More like a bonus to those who achieve over 300 points. 500 points would be a bit of a reach I'd say. I don't know many in socially deprived circumstances who even got much than 250 points.
Most of those who were from deprived backgrounds tended to do Leaving Cert Applied anyway.

jjbrien

bodhrandude wrote: »

OP they are all over the place, not just in Ireland, Neds (non-educated delinquents) in Scotland, chavs in England. Guess what? America has them too.

Bloody right america has them they voted in turmp :rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis

CoolHandBandit wrote:

Nice over reaction. Where did i say dole cuts for all.

Did you answer any of my questions?

That was hyperbole.

Red_Wake

reason vs religion wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

1) As most schools are owned by RCC, not gonna happen, not sure if this happens in Educate Together?
2)So you're replacing Catholicism with Philosophy - I'd argue you're just changing your dogma, as Philosophy has as many schools of thought as religion
3) Latin is even less useful than Irish, bear in mind that while Irish has no private sector employment AFAIK, as an EU language there are jobs in it as EU admins, as well as catering to the recreational Irish speakers[of which there are a few
4)What you're proposing is basically students going into FAS rather than university, a friend of mine is on an apprenticeship sponsored by FAS to become an electrician.
5) Paying public servants more has never fixed an irish public service, and never will. 
6)Covered through the SNA program for schools, which employs over 10,000 SNAs to help disadvantaged kids[425 million is the annual budget for this program]

Might want to detail your other suggestions, seem the ones listed above are either nonsense or already implemented.

1. It's a set of hypothetical suggestions.

2. Philosophy is clearly not a dogma. I don't think any more needs being said in this regard.

3. Latin was obviously not proposed for its usefulness as a conversational language. The benefits of learning Latin are widely-known.

4. The proposal would be to bring vocational training into the mainstream, in the process legitimising it. Hope your mate's getting on well.

5. Public servants are not paid based on performance, which is what was suggested.

6. The SNA system is inadequate.


You wear your obnoxious arrogance like an ill-fitting suit.

1) Cop out response

2) There are multiple schools of thought in philosophy, which one would you teach? Whichever one was selected for teaching would become the new dogma. 

3) What are these vague benefits?

4) Vocational training isn't mainstream due to sections of society viewing tradesmen as a lesser profession [something which I disagree with]. I don't see this as something the government is capable of fixing. As an aside, the last time trades were mainstream was the construction bubble.

5) Evaluating teachers is incredibly complex and the unions would freak out.

6) I'd argue it's taken advantage of by middle class schools[SNAs are more common in schools in privileged areas compared to underprivileged areas] rather than inadequate, given that the budget is astronomical. When you say inadequate, in what way do you consider it inadequate?

Feel free to include more vague condemnations and personal insults in your response:angel:

Sleepy

team_actimel wrote: »

More like a bonus to those who achieve over 300 points. 500 points would be a bit of a reach I'd say. I don't know many in socially deprived circumstances who even got much than 250 points.
Most of those who were from deprived backgrounds tended to do Leaving Cert Applied anyway.

Maybe 500 is a bit of a stretch but 300 is scraping the bottom of the barrel. I'd say there's a happy medium at around 400 points or so, basically put it at a level that'd be sufficient to get one into a Bachelors degree in a university.

Red_Wake

reason vs religion wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

1) As most schools are owned by RCC, not gonna happen, not sure if this happens in Educate Together?
2)So you're replacing Catholicism with Philosophy - I'd argue you're just changing your dogma, as Philosophy has as many schools of thought as religion
3) Latin is even less useful than Irish, bear in mind that while Irish has no private sector employment AFAIK, as an EU language there are jobs in it as EU admins, as well as catering to the recreational Irish speakers[of which there are a few
4)What you're proposing is basically students going into FAS rather than university, a friend of mine is on an apprenticeship sponsored by FAS to become an electrician.
5) Paying public servants more has never fixed an irish public service, and never will. 
6)Covered through the SNA program for schools, which employs over 10,000 SNAs to help disadvantaged kids[425 million is the annual budget for this program]

Might want to detail your other suggestions, seem the ones listed above are either nonsense or already implemented.

1. It's a set of hypothetical suggestions.

2. Philosophy is clearly not a dogma. I don't think any more needs being said in this regard.

3. Latin was obviously not proposed for its usefulness as a conversational language. The benefits of learning Latin are widely-known.

4. The proposal would be to bring vocational training into the mainstream, in the process legitimising it. Hope your mate's getting on well.

5. Public servants are not paid based on performance, which is what was suggested.

6. The SNA system is inadequate.


You wear your obnoxious arrogance like an ill-fitting suit.

1) Cop out response

2) There are multiple schools of thought in philosophy, which one would you teach? Whichever one was selected for teaching would become the new dogma. 

3) What are these vague benefits?

4) Vocational training isn't mainstream due to sections of society viewing tradesmen as a lesser profession [something which I disagree with]. I don't see this as something the government is capable of fixing. As an aside, the last time trades were mainstream was the construction bubble.

5) Evaluating teachers is incredibly complex and the unions would freak out.

6) I'd argue it's taken advantage of by middle class schools[SNAs are more common in schools in privileged areas compared to underprivileged areas] rather than inadequate, given that the budget is astronomical. When you say inadequate, in what way do you consider it inadequate?

Feel free to include more vague condemnations and personal insults in your response:angel:

C Montgomery Gurns II

team_actimel wrote: »

There were a fair few skangers in my school in the country and they got the same level of education as the rest of us (in primary school anyway). For some reason they didn't listen or absorb even the most basic of grammatical English.

You only have to take a look at some of their Facebook pages and the lessons of punctuation and grammar seemed to have passed them by.
"im full time mommy to 2 beautifull angles who I luv ta bits nd wud do anyting for i like to enjoy life and am a mad ting"

To be honest text messaging and, later, FB, was probably the most important educational revolution in the history of scaldy civilization. There were people who before the year 2000 would have gotten through life being almost completely illiterate, who suddenly for reasons of social interaction were forced to be able to at least half coherently express themselves to their friends via text/ FB.

osarusan

Average is about 345 points...or was 2 years ago.

Richard Hillman

Sleepy wrote: »

Some of the kids you're refering to aren't even fed breakfast before they're dragged to school.

In most walks of life the carrot works better than the stick so perhaps we should explore incentivising the parents in socially deprived circumstances? €500 bonus in your social welfare if your child achieves a moderately high Junior Cert? €1000 for anyone on welfare whose child achieves over 500 points in the leaving?

It may seem like an odd use of taxpayers money but I think it'd make a good investment - better educated citizens almost always end up paying more taxes.

You'll get all of these do-gooder groups saying it will put too much pressure on the kids and stuff. Turning kids into feeble beings that cannot deal with pressure is good for business with these group's.

HigginsJ

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You'll get all of these do-gooder groups saying it will put too much pressure on the kids and stuff. Turning kids into feeble beings that cannot deal with pressure is good for business with these group's.

Sadly this is a very valid point.

To quote Sheldon Cooper: "I weep for humanity"

steddyeddy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Here's a source - which refers to internationally recongised primary resesrch: https://www.nala.ie/literacy/literacy-in-ireland

Some key takeaways include one in six (18%) being functionally illiterate. And thats actually one of the better measures.

There are problems with genetics for sure, but at least some of the blame for this lies with the education system being inadequate.

Scangers are just the extreme end of the problem: kids born to uneducated families usually turn out the same unless theres an effective education system and a culture which allows people to change their social class. Ireland has neither.

I'm a scientist so I'd be interested in the genetic problems you're sure of. I'm not saying I disagree, intelligence is paramount and intelligence is variable. The education system is pivotal though. Even a neglected child can benefit from a good education.

steddyeddy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

You'll get all of these do-gooder groups saying it will put too much pressure on the kids and stuff. Turning kids into feeble beings that cannot deal with pressure is good for business with these group's.

Depends. I find those from the elite private schools in our lab group the most spoon fed. A PhD is self directed learning and a good learning environment should give students an end goal without feeding them every bit of information.

Samuel T. Cogley

Red_Wake wrote: »

1) Cop out response

This is AH not a think tank. So engage or don't but don't pretend you're too good for the argument.

Red_Wake wrote: »

2) There are multiple schools of thought in philosophy, which one would you teach? Whichever one was selected for teaching would become the new dogma.

You misunderstand how philosophy works, however almost anything would be better than the religious nonsense we have now. You teach people to think, they then pick up on the schools that appeal to them and you aid the understanding on why that appeals to them. In short critical thinking. The exact opposite of faith.

Red_Wake wrote: »

3) What are these vague benefits?

Fine don't teach any dead languages.

Red_Wake wrote: »

4) Vocational training isn't mainstream due to sections of society viewing tradesmen as a lesser profession [something which I disagree with]. I don't see this as something the government is capable of fixing. As an aside, the last time trades were mainstream was the construction bubble.

Vocation training is widely available in the UK and there has been some success with it. You can vocationally train IT engineers, lab techs, retailers and pilots. It's not just window cleaners and brick layers, although if that's what little Jonny or Janey wants to do that should be an option too.

Red_Wake wrote: »

5) Evaluating teachers is incredibly complex and the unions would freak out.

Tough ****. Teachers and unions are a major reason why the Irish education system is to poor. There are of course gems in the rough but they are not rewarded and the deadwood is not pruned.

Red_Wake wrote: »

6) I'd argue it's taken advantage of by middle class schools[SNAs are more common in schools in privileged areas compared to underprivileged areas] rather than inadequate, given that the budget is astronomical. When you say inadequate, in what way do you consider it inadequate?

We're not addressing social issues at their genesis, the budget it inadequate until we do.

brevity

I'm probably just echoing what others have said but you should be taught/educated in school and encouraged at home.

So, the teacher will teach maths, or some other subject and the student will get encouraged to do their homework/study at home.

There will obviously be some cross over but that's how I would view it.

Arcade_Tryer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

unfortunately our educational system isn great with dealing with complex problems such as mental health issues, complex behavioural problems, learning disabilities and personality disorders etc etc. people who have these issues are very likely to struggle in our educational system, some failing very badly and even leaving the system at an early stage. our system can in fact exacerbate these issues in some

And that's just the teachers...

Lux23

Everyone country has an underclass - ever see the German ones? Terrifying yokels.

suicide_circus

Was in a waiting room yesterday, a kid with his mum and nanny came in. The kid was acting up, screeching etc and someone must have looked over at them because the mum goes on this rant about how he's autistic and people being judgmental. The mum was getting frustrated and upset with her son kicking her and pulling her hair. Anyway my point is, the two women were feeding this kid sugary sweets the whole time. Chewits and refresher sweets etc. They were trying to pacify an overstimulated frustrated autistic child with glucose and E numbers. They were doing their best but lacked a basic understanding of what was going on with their own child.

reason vs religion

Red_Wake wrote: »

1) Cop out response

2) There are multiple schools of thought in philosophy, which one would you teach? Whichever one was selected for teaching would become the new dogma. 

3) What are these vague benefits?

4) Vocational training isn't mainstream due to sections of society viewing tradesmen as a lesser profession [something which I disagree with]. I don't see this as something the government is capable of fixing. As an aside, the last time trades were mainstream was the construction bubble.

5) Evaluating teachers is incredibly complex and the unions would freak out.

6) I'd argue it's taken advantage of by middle class schools[SNAs are more common in schools in privileged areas compared to underprivileged areas] rather than inadequate, given that the budget is astronomical. When you say inadequate, in what way do you consider it inadequate?

Feel free to include more vague condemnations and personal insults in your response:angel:

1. A cop out?! Patently not. It's legitimate to propose an ideal scenario without having to demonstrate how it might be realised. As for how it might: parent-power in a country increasingly apathetic of religion could quickly bring about the proposed shift.

2. Philosophy in schols isn't about imparting knowledge or truths; religion transparently is. In philosophy, students are taught to identify and analyse arguments and coherently respond to them, in the process developing critical thinking, attention to detail, rhetorical skill, etc. They engage with the body of philosophical thought to develop such skills, not so as to be led towards positions on abstract questions in philosophy. What's more, no philosophical education involves being taught a particular school of thinking to the exclusion of others. (I'm doing a degree in philosophy. I imagine you are unaware of just how facile your objection is.)

3. Don't shamelessly ask me! You'll find many sources online.

4. Of course it's something a government can normalise!

5. You've moved on from your previous objection, then? Performance pay would not be without it's difficulties, granted. But the arguments in opposition from teachers are usually reflexive and weak, and the prospective outcomes from encouraging exceptional teaching are transformative. Union response is irrelevant.

6. This is another example of a proposal that is not currently feasible in this country. Ancillary provisions in an ideal system might include support-teachers in classrooms, special classes for students struggling with maths and, conversely, those who are being held back, support groups for children who are struggling socially, etc, all of which would be integrated into the learning process. SNA's are tasked with personal care of students with disabilities in an attempt to fit them into the mould required for them to be taught by the one-dimensional education system.