Skangers and the Education system

HigginsJ

Wanderer78 wrote: »

adhd would be a very common issue but various forms of autism would also be common, these are very complex issues and very difficult to deal with. our one size fits all system truly leaves people with these issues vulnerable and exposed in the system

Again, in no way would I disagree with you. To my view alot more people are being diagnosed with ADHD in particular to account for other things and this makes it genuinely difficult to help those who may actually need it.

This is not the kids fault in any way, it suits the parents down to the ground to a large degree and the kids will surely just pick up on this from their parents.

Neon_Lights

Them skangers are mad for their add or ADHD and live on handouts. You feel fantastic though ten years on when you see them struggling, generally with a significant number of sprogs a drug habit and still on the dole. And you think to yourself what a tool.

Wanderer78

HigginsJ wrote: »

Again, in no way would I disagree with you. To my view alot more people are being diagnosed with ADHD in particular to account for other things and this makes it genuinely difficult to help those who may actually need it.

This is not the kids fault in any way, it suits the parents down to the ground to a large degree and the kids will surely just pick up on this from their parents.

its a fair point i guess, but in many cases, you ll find that the parents to also have similar complex issues and are possibly undiagnosed.

Samuel T. Cogley

A system that teaches blind religion and doesn't teach philosophy; one of the best in Europe. Well done OP, needed a giggle.

The education system or certainly that age is where the investment should be in breaking the cycle of depravation and 'scumbagery' by the time we're putting them up at casa Mount Joy at €76,000 a year it's too late, but schools can't be expected to raise children.

reason vs religion

biko wrote: »

Two opinions/statements, no sources.
The education system has indeed failed.

A claim that the sun is a giant marshmallow hardly requires a scientific counter argument.

The number of thanks mine received indicates many believe the initial claim to be self-evidently false. And, for effect, my was purposely condensed, mirroring the OP's.

kunst nugget wrote: »

Here is a Journal.ie fact check in relation to Ireland's educational prowess. Turns out we're distinctly average..

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-european-education-rankings-facts-eoghan-murphy-cnbc-2992092-Sep2016/

Ostensibly this actually supports the OP's claim. His was in relation to pre-tertiary education, and this says that Ireland's teens perform near the top in the EU. However, and it's a subtle point, high performance does not necessarily imply a superior education system. PISA results are effectively a proxy for social equality - one reason Finland does so well. If you drill down, you actually see that Ireland's top tier of students underperforms compared with the three or four countries ranked below it, which implies our education system is pretty mediocre but that we're fortunate that we have relatively few in poverty, meaning the bottom tier of students scores relatively highly.

Parchment

I dont see how the Irish education system can be one of the best in the world - it encourages rote learning for success in the Leaving Cert.

I studied in an Irish university then onto a Scottish one - my mind was blown by the difference in learning styles. In Ireland you are coaxed along whereas in Scotland you are very much on your own and need to be an independent learner - the total opposite to the "great" Irish system.

SEPT 23 1989

Wanderer78 wrote: »

unfortunately our educational system isn great with dealing with complex problems such as mental health issues, complex behavioural problems, learning disabilities and personality disorders etc etc. people who have these issues are very likely to struggle in our educational system, some failing very badly and even leaving the system at an early stage. our system can in fact exacerbate these issues in some

they eventually get back into the system,The Prison system

things are changing but very slowly

we will look back with horror in 50 years time at how badly kids were treated by the state trying to get basic help to improve their lves

kunst nugget

Parchment wrote: »

I dont see how the Irish education system can be one of the best in the world - it encourages rote learning for success in the Leaving Cert.

I studied in an Irish university then onto a Scottish one - my mind was blown by the difference in learning styles. In Ireland you are coaxed along whereas in Scotland you are very much on your own and need to be an independent learner - the total opposite to the "great" Irish system.

I don't know if you can necessarily base the entire university systems of two countries on the individual courses you did.

Wanderer78

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

they eventually get back into the system,The Prison system

things are changing but very slowly

we will look back in horror in 50 years time at how badly kids were treated by the state trying to get basic help to improve their lves

completely agree with you here, we have a very reactionary system whereby we need to become proactive. im amazed many dont see the relationship between all these issues, ive been informed theres plenty of peer reviewed work available on these matters but i havent had the chance to look yet. i was recently told by an experienced special needs assistant that a study was done in a scottish prison some time ago and found that 60% of the prison population had dyslexia! id imagine if you looked further, you d find the same or similar complex issues that we have been discussing.

valoren

The idiom 'you can drag a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it' is apt for that question.
Some people for whatever reason, be it indifference, boredom, frustration, learning disability, will never be interested in education.

I define education as reading comprehension, writing correctly with regards to grammar and fundamental arithmetic ability. You get all that in Primary. You can complete Primary school without becoming educated.

Secondary school is the application of those skills to specific defined subjects with the three R's refined and mastered at an advanced level with the difference being that your progress is tested through examinations. Examinations are not liked it seems by the skangers among us.

For skangers, anything beyond a primary level of education or understanding simply holds little weight in their social circles. Should a skanger find themselves using correct english on facebook comments for example, they would be vilified, singled out, isolated for using 'dem big wurds'. It's almost a form of compliance I guess.

Parchment

kunst nugget wrote: »

I don't know if you can necessarily base the entire university systems of two countries on the individual courses you did.

I saw the way the Irish student (there were 35 students on the course, 8 were Irish) floundered with the Scottish style of "do it yourself". Obviously they coped but the Scottish student were far better versed in doing it themselves.

kunst nugget

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i was recently told by an experienced special needs assistant that a study was done in a scottish prison some time ago and found that 60% of the prison population had dyslexia!

What was worse is they thought they it was going to be sex daily.

kunst nugget

Parchment wrote: »

I saw the way the Irish student (there were 35 students on the course, 8 were Irish) floundered with the Scottish style of "do it yourself". Obviously they coped but the Scottish student were far better versed in doing it themselves.

The course I did here, albeit in a slightly specialised subject, was one where you were left to your own devices and it was up to you to determine what your project work and research was going to entail.

Admittedly, less than half the original group of students were left by the end of the course.

Tayschren

The sheer idiocy of this thread is astounding, firstly if you were educated in the Irish system then the abiltiy to see how bad it was in your mind is in fact a positive that you didn't realise but then again not realising shows how badly educated you were in the first place leading to the fact that it must be a really top notch system if it got you to the point where you dont know what you really know because your too smart to know your stupid.

DrumSteve

I hate these threads.

team_actimel

Tayschren wrote: »

The sheer idiocy of this thread is astounding, firstly if you were educated in the Irish system then the abiltiy to see how bad it was in your mind is in fact a positive that you didn't realise but then again not realising shows how badly educated you were in the first place leading to the fact that it must be a really top notch system if it got you to the point where you dont know what you really know because your too smart to know your stupid.

Reading that hurt my brain.
*You're too smart to know you're stupid.

kunst nugget

DrumSteve wrote: »

I hate these threads.

Ah, now. I think your clothes aren't that bad. They bring out the pink in your eyes.

lawred2

bodhrandude wrote: »

OP they are all over the place, not just in Ireland, Neds (non-educated delinquents) in Scotland, chavs in England. Guess what? America has them too.

lol - never knew that's what that meant..

wifey is Scottish and herself and her family use it all the time - must check whether they knew the origins

lawred2

team_actimel wrote: »

There were a fair few skangers in my school in the country and they got the same level of education as the rest of us (in primary school anyway). For some reason they didn't listen or absorb even the most basic of grammatical English.

You only have to take a look at some of their Facebook pages and the lessons of punctuation and grammar seemed to have passed them by.
"im full time mommy to 2 beautifull angles who I luv ta bits nd wud do anyting for i like to enjoy life and am a mad ting"

because they are by and large a sub breed

Samuel T. Cogley

An excellent education system would IMHO:

- Teach ALL religions and spend about 30 minutes a week on it
- Teach Philosophy and spend at least 2 hours a week on it
- Offer Latin as an alternative in the 'Dead Languages department'
- Offer vocational training as an alternative to full-time formal academic education, leading to trades including IT.
- A starting salary for teachers at the median average wage only increase from there but be performance related
- Have huge amounts of ancillary services to deal with children with issues, including interaction with social services

And plenty of others.

reason vs religion

valoren wrote: »

The idiom 'you can drag a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it' is apt for that question.
Some people for whatever reason, be it indifference, boredom, frustration, learning disability, will never be interested in education.

I define education as reading comprehension, writing correctly with regards to grammar and fundamental arithmetic ability. You get all that in Primary. Secondary school is the application of those skills to specific defined subjects with the three R's refined and mastered at an advanced level.

So basically being able to fill out a form on your own, or making sure you haven't been shortchanged for example to me means you're educated.

But for skangers, anything beyond that level of education or understanding simply holds little weight in their social circles. Should a skanger find themselves using correct english on facebook comments for example, they would be vilified, singled out, isolated for using 'dem big wurds'. It's almost a form of compliance I guess.

Have you considered, rather than it being a case of economically deprived students wilfully rejecting schooling, that it's in fact the case that they don't possess certain human capital that most children would have developed - ability to concentrate, grasp of complex language, etc - and that this, in conjunction with attitudes to schooling, makes their successful progress improbable from the start? In the same way the one-size-fits-all curriculum fails the minority with learning difficulties, those who are lacking in certain human capital are put in a education system under which they are not equipped to perform.

lawred2

Everlong1 wrote: »

Spot on. This will continue unless we start demanding an end to the welfare entitlement culture and elect politicians and parties who are prepared to tackle same. I was very encouraged by Leo Varadkar's recent comments on this. Anyone wanting to see an end to the welfare lifestyle option should think about supporting Fine Gael and encouraging them along this road. Fianna Fail of course have destroyed Ireland twice - the first time was in the late 70's/ early 80's - and will destroy the country again by throwing money at everyone on welfare to buy votes if they slither into power again.

and thus ends a party political broadcast on behalf of Fine Gael

judeboy101

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Well it is by people in Ireland, never been clear on what basis though.
It's grand imo, but it's no Finnish system!

Finnish system is horrible, homogenous and pigeon holes kids too early. A kid could struggle all the way through primary and secondary here in Ireland and pull it out of the bag in 6th yr and get 600pts. That same child would be screened out of the Finnish system earlier and never get the chance to turn it around.

lawred2

Tayschren wrote: »

The sheer idiocy of this thread is astounding, firstly if you were educated in the Irish system then the abiltiy to see how bad it was in your mind is in fact a positive that you didn't realise but then again not realising shows how badly educated you were in the first place leading to the fact that it must be a really top notch system if it got you to the point where you dont know what you really know because your too smart to know your stupid.

good lord

I'd hate to measure this for irony.

DrumSteve

kunst nugget wrote: »

Ah, now. I think your clothes aren't that bad. They bring out the pink in your eyes.

Cheers, I went with a white shirt navy slacks combo today.

kunst nugget

team_actimel wrote: »

Reading that hurt my brain.
*You're too smart to know you're stupid.

He's street smart not book smart...

Here we go

HigginsJ wrote: »

I don't think anyone would argue with you on this one but I think this is more about a certain demographic and the high propensity for them to not fully engage with the educational system.

I would love to see how many of these children are given an out in that they are suffering from "ADHD". I'm sure there are legitimate cases of those who suffer from this but it is something that is being bandied about willy nilly to excuse unacceptable behaviour.

I read something awhile ago about community culture. It's not just being from a bad house hold but area people born in disadvantage areas grow up surrounded by people in the same boat. They come accustom to that level of life no drive to improve because it's ingrained in them. And in there real life interactions the people they see achieve and better then selfs in there area do so trough other means. Other then education but crime. Sorry can't link to it. Think it was about gettos in America and black crime rates in theses areas but the theory is the same.

Red_Wake

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

An excellent education system would IMHO:

- Teach ALL religions and spend about 30 minutes a week on it
- Teach Philosophy and spend at least 2 hours a week on it
- Offer Latin as an alternative in the 'Dead Languages department'
- Offer vocational training as an alternative to full-time formal academic education, leading to trades including IT.
- A starting salary for teachers at the median average wage only increase from there but be performance related
- Have huge amounts of ancillary services to deal with children with issues, including interaction with social services

And plenty of others.

1) As most schools are owned by RCC, not gonna happen, not sure if this happens in Educate Together?
2)So you're replacing Catholicism with Philosophy - I'd argue you're just changing your dogma, as Philosophy has as many schools of thought as religion
3) Latin is even less useful than Irish, bear in mind that while Irish has no private sector employment AFAIK, as an EU language there are jobs in it as EU admins, as well as catering to the recreational Irish speakers[of which there are a few
4)What you're proposing is basically students going into FAS rather than university, a friend of mine is on an apprenticeship sponsored by FAS to become an electrician.
5) Paying public servants more has never fixed an irish public service, and never will. 
6)Covered through the SNA program for schools, which employs over 10,000 SNAs to help disadvantaged kids[425 million is the annual budget for this program]

Might want to detail your other suggestions, seem the ones listed above are either nonsense or already implemented.

eviltwin

Schools can only do so much. When you consider how little time children are actually in school over the year how can the positive influence they may get there override the negative one at home? Add to that some kids are actively discouraged from doing well by their families and peers and you can be fighting a losing battle.

reason vs religion

Red_Wake wrote: »

1) As most schools are owned by RCC, not gonna happen, not sure if this happens in Educate Together?
2)So you're replacing Catholicism with Philosophy - I'd argue you're just changing your dogma, as Philosophy has as many schools of thought as religion
3) Latin is even less useful than Irish, bear in mind that while Irish has no private sector employment AFAIK, as an EU language there are jobs in it as EU admins, as well as catering to the recreational Irish speakers[of which there are a few
4)What you're proposing is basically students going into FAS rather than university, a friend of mine is on an apprenticeship sponsored by FAS to become an electrician.
5) Paying public servants more has never fixed an irish public service, and never will. 
6)Covered through the SNA program for schools, which employs over 10,000 SNAs to help disadvantaged kids[425 million is the annual budget for this program]

Might want to detail your other suggestions, seem the ones listed above are either nonsense or already implemented.

1. It's a set of hypothetical suggestions.

2. Philosophy is clearly not a dogma. I don't think any more needs being said in this regard.

3. Latin was obviously not proposed for its usefulness as a conversational language. The benefits of learning Latin are widely-known.

4. The proposal would be to bring vocational training into the mainstream, in the process legitimising it. Hope your mate's getting on well.

5. Public servants are not paid based on performance, which is what was suggested.

6. The SNA system is inadequate.


You wear your obnoxious arrogance like an ill-fitting suit.