Census 2016 Results

JupiterKid

__Alex__ wrote: »

Interesting graph, showing the percentage of 'No Religion' correspondents in the different age groups, compared with the percentage of those age groups in the general population:

I'm my opinion it shows two main things - that over 1 in 10 children under the age of 9 are being brought up with no religion AND that 30 somethings are the predominant age cohort of adults with no religion.

__Alex__

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm my opinion it shows two main things - that over 1 in 10 children under the age of 9 are being brought up with no religion AND that 30 somethings are the predominant age cohort of adults with no religion.

I also think a lot of the student-age adults might still have their part filled out by their folks too, moreso than 30-somethings.

Billy86

__Alex__ wrote: »

Interesting graph, showing the percentage of 'No Religion' correspondents in the different age groups, compared with the percentage of those age groups in the general population:

Mammy sed I'm a cat lick.

ChikiChiki

I was in a hurry when i filled out the form at the last minute. Pretty sure i wrote Catholic in the religion section which when I think about it is bull****. If i could go back I'd mark no religion.

a very cool kid

Huntergonzo wrote: »

But a catholic school may be the only school in the area, therefore you have no real choice only to enroll your child in it, so high demand for catholic schools is another very misleading statistic. Anyway if they're catholic schools, why doesn't the catholic church fund them?

Ah I rarely ever believe line 'couldn't be removed/done/changed etc etc by government even if they wanted to', and I don't just mean in a religious context. The government isn't all powerful, but they have the power to do a hell of a lot once the will is there, sadly populism and inaction are the preferred options because the less you rock the boat the better your re-election chances. When a government says "we can't" they generally mean "shut up, I don't want to".

That's tough, start your own school, send your kids somewhere else in that case.

Cookie_Monster

There should be no question of religion on the census, never mind debating how it should be structured. It's utterly irrelevant to the running of the state and it's planning and no more important than asking what football team or political party you support.

Tigger

a very cool kid wrote: »

That's tough, start your own school, send your kids somewhere else in that case.

Is it easy to start a school?

An Ciarraioch

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There should be no question of religion on the census, never mind debating how it should be structured. It's utterly irrelevant to the running of the state and it's planning and no more important than asking what football team or political party you support.

Actually, the religion stats would be extremely important to the Department of Education, as knowing how many Catholics or non-Catholics live in an area helps with demand and planning for multi-denominational, vocational and Educate Together schools. Similarly, English-speaking areas with a larger level of Irish-speakers will be prime sites for Gaelscoileanna.

Cookie_Monster

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Actually, the religion stats would be extremely important to the Department of Education, as knowing how many Catholics or non-Catholics live in an area helps with demand and planning for multi-denominational, vocational and Educate Together schools. Similarly, English-speaking areas with a larger level of Irish-speakers will be prime sites for Gaelscoileanna.

But schools should all be non-denominational anyway, so moot point.
Now obviously that's not going to happen overnight but it needs to.

retalivity

It shouldnt be, but it needs to be for the foreseeable future to combat the belief that the catholic church needs to run the school system to accommodate the majority of the population that it sees as its adherents.

The sooner they are removed from the education system the better, and more honest answering of the census will help speed that along.

An Ciarraioch

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But schools should all be non-denominational anyway, so moot point.
Now obviously that's not going to happen overnight but it needs to.

Perhaps, but that doesn't even happen in the UK, as while the majority of schools come under the State system, all the various churches also run their own schools.

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So you can't tell the difference between the fact of where you are born and a religious belief?

Why would it be a lie? You haven't answered my question on what it means to be a Catholic.

RobertKK

People really do obsess about religion in a census.

ChikiChiki

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There should be no question of religion on the census, never mind debating how it should be structured. It's utterly irrelevant to the running of the state and it's planning and no more important than asking what football team or political party you support.

I think you will find its very relevant to the state at the moment. Loads of schools and hospitals with church influence. Nice to see the declining numbers.

LordSutch

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Actually, the religion stats would be extremely important to the Department of Education, as knowing how many Catholics or non-Catholics live in an area helps with demand and planning for multi-denominational, vocational and Educate Together schools. Similarly, English-speaking areas with a larger level of Irish-speakers will be prime sites for Gaelscoileanna.

The two bits in bold are well dodgy and open to interpretation. Take 'Non Catholics' for instance, what does that even mean? Church of Ireland people are also catholics, albeit not 'Roman Catholics', one could also question Irish speakers, Vs non Irish speakers. Does cupla focal count???
Its all done on trust and interpretation as to what an Irish speaker actually is.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But schools should all be non-denominational anyway, so moot point.
Now obviously that's not going to happen overnight but it needs to.

It's very far from a 'moot' point because in reality schools are denominational or interdenominational. Given this reality, it is therefore very relevant indeed that religion be asked. The idea that it shouldn't be asked is classic, politically motivated obscurantism. Your proposal seems like a more developed variant of the 'We don't like the answer so let's challenge people's self-definition' - with your variant being 'Let's abolish the question!'. Entertaining stuff.

For the record, I would be delighted to see the Roman Catholic Church removed from the state's education system. A more anti-Irish culture and anti-Irish radical/republican/socialist organisation than the RCC is hard to conceive of other than the British Empire/colonial state in Ireland itself. The ultimate collaborators of Irish history. It's just a pity that the vast majority of the proponents of secularising Irish education on this website have an inferiority complex to English culture/hatred of Irish culture. All they offer is an atheist West Brit Ireland to replace a Roman Catholic West Brit Ireland. Like many others, I think I'll hang out for a better deal on Irish education.

LordSutch

West Brit, anti Irish, British Empire, inferiority complex, colonial collaborators ......

What are on about, maybe you've got the wrong thread?

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

West Brit, anti Irish, British Empire, inferiority complex, colonial collaborators ......

What are on about, maybe you've got the wrong thread?

Ah Lord Sutch. It's definitely the correct thread when you're here on your anti-Irish culture and anti-Roman Catholic hobby horses. It's only six months before you'll be in full flight glorifying the dead of the British Empire and telling us how proud you were to wear your British poppy and how awful the Easter Rising was.

Huntergonzo

a very cool kid wrote: »

That's tough, start your own school, send your kids somewhere else in that case.

Haha alright, no worries chief.

Huntergonzo

Tigger wrote: »

Is it easy to start a school?

Ah ye, you just get up, scratch your balls and boom, it's there.

Huntergonzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah Lord Sutch. It's definitely the correct thread when you're here on your anti-Irish culture and anti-Roman Catholic hobby horses. It's only six months before you'll be in full flight glorifying the dead of the British Empire and telling us how proud you were to wear your British poppy and how awful the Easter Rising was.

Why are you so anti-semitic and racist, it's disgusting actually!

Arcade_Tryer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah Lord Sutch. It's definitely the correct thread when you're here on your anti-Irish culture and anti-Roman Catholic hobby horses. It's only six months before you'll be in full flight glorifying the dead of the British Empire and telling us how proud you were to wear your British poppy and how awful the Easter Rising was.

People don't have a problem with Irish or Catholic culture. People have a problem with Irish and Catholic culture being forced upon them in public life e.g. compulsory learning of Irish in school, baptism, communion etc. This is a significance difference, and it is a difference which is never fully acknowledged, or even perhaps understood, by Irish language advocates and Catholic hierarchy.

Huntergonzo

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

People don't have a problem with Irish or Catholic culture. People have a problem with Irish and Catholic culture being forced upon them in public life e.g. compulsory learning of Irish in school, baptism, communion etc. This is a significance difference, and it is a difference which is never fully acknowledged, or even perhaps understood, by Irish language advocates and Catholic hierarchy.

Not much point trying to have a genuine debate with someone who equates atheist as a = "crowd of Irish culture and Irish independence hating West Brits". Just feed him his own medicine ie = random incoherent name calling and labelling, it's all he knows, he won't understand genuine debate.

Huntergonzo

Huntergonzo wrote: »

it's all he knows, he won't understand genuine debate.

I can see you're clearly the Cicero of our times when it comes to "genuine debate":

Tigger wrote: »

Is it easy to start a school?

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Ah ye, you just get up, scratch your balls and boom, it's there.

One eyed Jack

Huntergonzo wrote: »

All I'm saying is if the catholic church wishes to maintain control of such a large number of primary schools then they should fund them, seems reasonable enough to me.

The Catholic Church, which as I said, isn't just the Hierarchy, does fund the education of all children, through the instruments set down by the State. Revenue is collected from people who are employed, whether or not they have children, and this is used to fund the education of all children, not just Roman Catholic children.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Ps, I don't personally believe any child has a religion, their parents may do alright, but not a child.

Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with you over the fact that my child is a member of the Roman Catholic Church and is therefore a Roman Catholic child. I suspect that what you do or don't believe in relation to other people or their children, isn't particularly relevant to them.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I'm not being smart but what exactly is in the Constitution, which explicitly states that the state must fund catholic education? I'm not saying it's not in there (nothing would surprise me about the Irish Constitution at this stage), I just don't know exactly where myself.

That wasn't your original contention the first time. This was -

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Ah I rarely ever believe line 'couldn't be removed/done/changed etc etc by government even if they wanted to', and I don't just mean in a religious context. The government isn't all powerful, but they have the power to do a hell of a lot once the will is there, sadly populism and inaction are the preferred options because the less you rock the boat the better your re-election chances. When a government says "we can't" they generally mean "shut up, I don't want to".

But to point you in the right direction, here are the relevant articles and sections in the Irish Constitution which prohibit any Government from interfering in matters of religion and how religions recognised by the State conduct their affairs shall be free from any State interference, but subject to the protection of public order and morality -


EDUCATION

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3 1 The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2 The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

CHILDREN

ARTICLE 42A

1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.

2 1 In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

2 Provision shall be made by law for the adoption of any child where the parents have failed for such a period of time as may be prescribed by law in their duty towards the child and where the best interests of the child so require.

3 Provision shall be made by law for the voluntary placement for adoption and the adoption of any child.

4 1 Provision shall be made by law that in the resolution of all proceedings -

i brought by the State, as guardian of the common good, for the purpose of preventing the safety and welfare of any child from being prejudicially affected, or

ii concerning the adoption, guardianship or custody of, or access to, any child,

the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.

2 Provision shall be made by law for securing, as far as practicable, that in all proceedings referred to in subsection 1 of this section in respect of any child who is capable of forming his or her own views, the views of the child shall be ascertained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child.

RELIGION

ARTICLE 44

1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

2 1 Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

2 The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3 The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

5 Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

6 The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.


Source: CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND


Article 44 more directly answers your question, but I included the other articles for context, and decided not to put them in "QUOTE" bbcode in case you actually wanted to query a specific section of any particular article (can be a hoor to do with quote boxes).

Mrs OBumble

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But schools should all be non-denominational anyway, so moot point.
Now obviously that's not going to happen overnight but it needs to.

Do you understand what the phrase non-denominational means?

Try google-ing "non-denominational church dublin", and taking a good hard look at the organisations which are returned. Do you really want these folks running schools? Some of them make your average Catholic look like a decidedly wishy-washy agnostic.

I'm guessing that the phrase you really meant was "secular". And that in a state which is still 75% religious, it will take quite some time for that to happen.

Arghus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This seems to me an overly literal interpretation.

Surely the only thing that matters is what the person themselves thinks as regards to whether they fall under the "no religion" catergory or not.

How does it make sense that I have to tick the box marked Catholic for ever more, just because I happened to be baptised as an infant when I had literally no say in it and the decision was made entirely for me? In my life, as a person with independant agency, I'm entirety nonbelieving and non practicing. That to me are only things worth considering when it comes to deciding whether I truly am Non-Religious or not. The Catholic Church can consider me one way or another, but The Catholic Church considers a lot of things to be true that I don't, and just because the church considers one thing to be true, doesn't make it automatically so. And as a few have pointed out, they've done away with the option for an individual to formally break with the church.

So what you're saying is: you may be an atheist, with no religious element to your life, but because a ritual happened to you without your consent when you were a child, you must always consider yourself a Catholic, because an organisation who you pay no heed to and whose beliefs you find to be bogus says you can't leave anyways - even if you want to.... ?

Nah, I'd have no qualms ticking No Religion.

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah Lord Sutch. It's definitely the correct thread when you're here on your anti-Irish culture and anti-Roman Catholic hobby horses. It's only six months before you'll be in full flight glorifying the dead of the British Empire and telling us how proud you were to wear your British poppy and how awful the Easter Rising was.

Honestly Fuaranach, I don't know where or why you connect all your personal "baggage" to this thread. You are the only on going on about empires & colonies. I posted #166 with genuine observations, so you can relax & keep your 1916 hobby horse in it's box for another day :-)

Now, back to the census . . . .

JayRoc

Arghus wrote: »

This seems to me an overly literal interpretation.

Surely the only thing that matters is what the person themselves thinks as regards to whether they fall under the "no religion" catergory or not.

How does it make sense that I have to tick the box marked Catholic for ever more, just because I happened to be baptised as an infant when I had literally no say in it and the decision was made entirely for me? In my life, as a person with independant agency, I'm entirety nonbelieving and non practicing. That to me are only things worth considering when it comes to deciding whether I truly am Non-Religious or not. The Catholic Church can consider me one way or another, but The Catholic Church considers a lot of things to be true that I don't, and just because the church considers one thing to be true, doesn't make it automatically so. And as a few have pointed out, they've done away with the option for an individual to formally break with the church.

So what you're saying is: you may be an atheist, with no religious element to your life, but because a ritual happened to you without your consent when you were a child, you must always consider yourself a Catholic, because an organisation who you pay no heed to and whose beliefs you find to be bogus says you can't leave anyways - even if you want to.... ?

Nah, I'd have no qualms ticking No Religion.

It's the desperate act of an organisation who smells on the wind what is hopefully the beginning of the end, and is doing anything it can to pad its stats.

The notion that an adult would refer to themselves as RC because they were baptised and for no other reason is mindboggling. I honestly cannot get my head around it, and it angers me because it affects me. The numbers of catholics get artifically inflated, hugely, and as a result the schools continue to be run by a church that should have nothing to do with education.

One eyed Jack

JayRoc wrote: »

The numbers of catholics get artifically inflated, hugely, and as a result the schools continue to be run by a church that should have nothing to do with education.

The schools under the patronage of the RCC would still be run by the RCC regardless of how many people identify as Roman Catholic, because the State is obliged to provide for education, which means that it's the number of children enrolled in a school determines the amount of funding provided for their education, regardless of the children's religious affiliation or none.