Who's working class? Rather!

Permabear

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Pac1Man

Let us spare a thought for Saoirse 'Sore-Eyes' Ronan.

hullaballoo

andekwarhola wrote: »

As for the increased interest in gaelscoileanna amongst the 'middle class' , I always, probably unfairly, assumed it was as much to do with avoiding schools perceived to be overly 'multicultural' as much as a love of the language.

Obviously it's more multi-faceted than any of us have the time or inclination to discuss fully here. But, in general terms, the reason for the interest in Gaelscoileanna (at least in South County Dublin) is because of the level of education. These schools are consistently at the top of the pile in terms of LC points and student matriculation into University or similar and have been for some time now.

They are competing with schools who are charging €5,000.00 plus per student per year and in many cases, they are doing substantially better on the metrics parents value.

I believe the recent increase in Irish names is also multi-faceted (and includes the earlier point that having an Irish name is no longer considered a disadvantage, rightly or wrongly) but the prevalence in South County Dublin is imo undoubtedly associated with a desire to have the option of a Gaelscoil to send your child to. It may be the case that it caught on as a fashion thereafter and some people do it out of pretension but surprisingly enough, not everyone who lives in the area is that much of a cnut.

Permabear

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Rightwing

Anyone who grew up in/lives in a council house is working class.

Shenshen

Neyite wrote: »

Back in the nineties I used to get CV's from Czech or Polish folks. Under their name they would put the phonetic spelling in brackets. No reason why Sadhbh cant do that for her job in OZ.

The Siobhan's of our generation who went off on their J1's had the same issue too I'm sure.

I work with a lady with an Irish name - not even one of the more metaphysical ones, but it's still a spelling that doesn't give someone who is unfamiliar with the language the slightest hint as to how it might possibly be pronounced.

We work for a multi-national company in Ireland, and her role involves working colleagues all across Europe and the Middle East. Whenever I happen to mention her name on the phone to someone new(-ish) I'm usually met with audible relief that the person I talk to now 1) knows what the name's supposed to sound like and 2) that she is in fact female.
I know that a good number of people never initially pick up the phone to her as they're too worried to offend by not being able to say her name.

It's not a massive big deal, but it is a little stumbling block.

The thing that cracked me up was when she told me how, coming back from holiday one year, the passport controller in Dublin Airport looked at her name on the passport, looked up at her and said "What country is that kind of name from, then?"

Rightwing

Shenshen wrote: »

I work with a lady with an Irish name - not even one of the more metaphysical ones, but it's still a spelling that doesn't give someone who is unfamiliar with the language the slightest hint as to how it might possibly be pronounced.

We work for a multi-national company in Ireland, and her role involves working colleagues all across Europe and the Middle East. Whenever I happen to mention her name on the phone to someone new(-ish) I'm usually met with audible relief that the person I talk to now 1) knows what the name's supposed to sound like and 2) that she is in fact female.
I know that a good number of people never initially pick up the phone to her as they're too worried to offend by not being able to say her name.

It's not a massive big deal, but it is a little stumbling block.

The thing that cracked me up was when she told me how, coming back from holiday one year, the passport controller in Dublin Airport looked at her name on the passport, looked up at her and said "What country is that kind of name from, then?"

That genius is in the wrong job if struggling with names on passports.

LirW

@Samuel T.: I think I asked you this question yesterday and was thinking of opening a thread with the very same question, thanks for giving me a read while feeding my nipper

andekwarhola

hullaballoo wrote: »

These schools are consistently at the top of the pile in terms of LC points and student matriculation into University or similar and have been for some time now.

Is it true that students get extra points for sitting the leaving certificate in Irish?

Not knocking Irish schools by the way. My previous post was an observation.

Rightwing

andekwarhola wrote: »

Is it true that students get extra points for sitting the leaving certificate in Irish?

Not knocking Irish schools by the way. My previous post was an observation.

I believe they get 10% extra, and teachers also get a higher salary for teaching Ãs Gaeilge.

andekwarhola

Rightwing wrote: »

I believe they get 10% extra

Good deal if you can get it

Glenster

Permabear wrote: »

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In fairness my name is the most popular in Ireland and without fail some spud munching bogger spells it wrong every week.

Or whenever it comes up.

Capt'n Midnight

Candie wrote: »

but when you've met a Russian called Persephone it can really hit home how parental aspiration can be obvious to everyone, except of course, the parents.

Russians naming their child after the boat on Beachcombers ?
Wondrous are the worldly webs weaving us together.

Capt'n Midnight

Permabear wrote: »

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I heard of a Bríd who when to Oz, and people were embarrassed to say her name, "because it's what animals do".

Press_Start

touts wrote: »

How I see the class structure in 2017 Ireland: etc

very well put, however I think we're a little past class systems in the traditional sense. I think the classes are either too broad, or far to narrow. The original term for working class dates as far back as the Roman period, with the "Plebeians" who were the average rabble. Compared to the Elites, such as senators, rich folk, generals and the like. Following the medieval times and into the start of the industrial revolution you started having labourer jobs, that were outside of farming and service work. This led to the massive class splitting, which was even more exemplified in 1800s USA, Britain and Russia.
Large scale factories, mines and docks were the working class vocation, jobs that generally did not require a lot of education, and the lines were black and white in the regard.
Upper class work tended to be either ownership of factories, landlords, government work, lawyers, army officers and so on, very similar to todays equivalent.
What has changed however in those 200 years are the introduction of jobs that blend the middle gap, hence the "middle class".
Hugely popular in america, people who tended to live in suburbs and "ladies who luncheon" were very stereotypical. In a harsher way, they acted like upper class with less of the aristocratic class and none of the finance to provide it. after the 70s and 80s when factory work became less popular and more and more tech was coming out you had even more jobs and titles. Also more jobs that required actual hard education. Also meant that the lines between the classes and these jobs were blurred.

Today, you have your average group of 50 teens. One or two are wealthy, 7 or 8 are well off enough to have delusions of grandeur, 15-20 are comfortable enough to not struggle, maybe at all, and the rest toe between getting by and getting into some financial trouble once every few years, making cuts and some among them even turn very poor.
Class systems are dated, and not accurate. the average working class family is possibly as well off as a middle class equivalent in the 30s. It's evolving and can't be quantified.

Real Example: I went to a private school, got a decent education, and was very happy. we didn't have a lot of money, but with some financial help from family members I was privileged enough to get that. My mother was a beauty therapist and my father worked in a factory. My grandfather was a navy man, and my grandmother mixed between politics, even becoming first Lady Mayor, and working as a school secretary. None of them extremely well paying jobs but we were comfortable.
After school I got a grant and went to college, and graduated with honours. I had a part time job, working in a hotel bar, and then moved to a call centre. I now work for Apple as an at home, in a rented house in the middle of the city.
What class would I be? I can't afford a mortgage, a house, a wedding, a car, a major holiday as I'm still paying off student loans, and I barely have any major hobbies due to work schedule. Is it all due to circumstance? I have a good job, a solid education, but with time, living situation the current attitude in government towards education fees I can't progress towards my Masters and become a teacher like I want to, which would put me in an upper middle class job. Am I working class simply because the situation I'm in, rather than my upbringing or vocation?

steddyeddy

So just to clarify that names that are more difficult to pronounce than Bob are bad? My colleague, Sri Lankan (Tamil) is called Chandralal. He was born in the Sussex downs as were his mother and father. They could have picked a more British name I suppose but they went for Chandralal. A few of his colleagues here find it difficult to pronounce. Should they have went for a more generic name in place of the ethnic tongue twister that is Chandralal?

Yourself isit

Permabear wrote: »

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Really? What do Hungarians or Nigerians do?

steddyeddy

Yourself isit wrote: »

Really? What do Hungarians or Nigerians do?

Confuse stupid people with their complex names?

jimgoose

steddyeddy wrote: »

So just to clarify that names that are more difficult to pronounce than Bob are bad? My colleague, Sri Lankan (Tamil) is called Chandralal. He was born in the Sussex downs as were his mother and father. They could have picked a more British name I suppose but they went for Chandralal. A few of his colleagues here find it difficult to pronounce. Should they have went for a more generic name in place of the ethnic tongue twister that is Chandralal?

Probably the best one I encountered was a Greek chap called Charalambous Aganastopolous. Known as "Harry".

__Alex__

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not buying this at all. New names come into the public consciousness all the time. That you have heard new Irish names popping up isn't really indicative of anything. Irish given names have been popular at least since I was born in the early '80s and before that too, from what I can see.

A quick search shows that you do have some animosity towards the Irish language. I think you are allowing this to cloud your judgment a bit. I hated learning Irish but I can separate my feeling on that from the issue of naming children Irish names. People name their children these names because they hear them and are exposed to them.

pickarooney

Permabear wrote: »

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That's complete Double Dutch to me. I'm none the wiser for having read it.

pickarooney

Candie wrote: »

Unpronounceable and unspellable. I often wonder if there's an element of stressing one's racial purity involved!

One of my aunts has a nice name, but my paternal great-grandmother changed her name from Meera to Moira when telling her neighbours about her new granddaughter. Obviously, her mixed race grandchildren and son-in-law were banned from the house, lest people in the village figure out that her daughter didn't marry a nice pale Catholic boy when they saw the pride of brown babies. My grandfather never met his in-laws.

This makes me suspicious of people who determinedly adopt Irish or any other language names, when they have no other interest in either the language or culture.

Does that apply to African Americans?

__Alex__

Neyite wrote: »

Back in the nineties I used to get CV's from Czech or Polish folks. Under their name they would put the phonetic spelling in brackets. No reason why Sadhbh cant do that for her job in OZ.

The Siobhan's of our generation who went off on their J1's had the same issue too I'm sure.

Absolutely. This is what I would do if I had an Irish name. It's not that big an issue, in fact I'd say it's got around quite easily by doing what you outline above. Lots of people of my generation have names that would confuse people, it's hardly a new phenonemon.

Agree too on the cyclical nature of naming trends.

Mr.Plough

It's based on your profession. Doctors - not working class. Teachers - work in class.

mockingjay

Working class: Have to work for a living - any job
Middle class: Live of Daddy's money
Upper class: Live of Granda's money

Permabear

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bladespin

Think there's a lot of confusion between so called calsses and 'trendos' who think they have class going on here, from what I see with my kids in school (good auld greek and biblical names - named after family members btw), there's a good mix of older Irish names and newer names, that said the traditional Irish names seem to be dropping down in popularity in favor of more conventional names - Fiachra etc.

Also, re Gealscoils, I do remember when we were trying to figure out which school our first would attend a'friend' who had a child a similar age was trying to push us towards a gealscoil on the opposite side of our town because they didn't have any 'foreign' kids there - seriously wtf???
Some surprise to them when the kids started there were actually more mixed kids in the playground there than our local.

steddyeddy

In fairness not all Gael schools or private schools operate on the intention of keeping the wrong person out.

steddyeddy

I going to name drop here but we collaborate with a scientist called Elspeth Garmen. A pioneer of women in science and an opponent of private school advantage, she was against the social construction of class. She always expressed the view "class is the obsession of the lesser people".

bladespin

steddyeddy wrote:

In fairness not all Gael schools or private schools operate on the intention of keeping the wrong person out.

Toyally agree, my example just demonstrates the motive of a 'classy' parent.