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Who's working class? Rather!

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭__Alex__


    __Alex__ wrote: »
    Just speaking for myself here but I hated learning Irish and was terrible at it but I really love lots of Irish names. There is nothing more to it than that for me! :)

    To add, I think the reason many people call their children Irish names despite not being too engaged with Irish culture is simply down to knowing the names. Hear a name somewhere, like it, call your kid that. That's how many kids get named and in Ireland, you are exposed to all kinds of Irish names because it's, well, Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭Bambi985


    Strange really, I remember being a kid in the 80s/early 90s and there were 42 Niamhs and Aoifes and Daithis and Aislings in any given school year. Common as muck, those names were. About as exotic as a smack in the face.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,187 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    TL;DR: Nerds who are extremely good at doing stuff and paid accordingly, but feckin' awkward when it comes to speak to other people.

    Basically they created an entire new social class for the vast majority of IT workers, software engineers specifically :D.

    And before anyone goes "not true!", I am indeed a software engineer. I know what I'm talking about >_<

    "They" created furk-all. Class is something you're either born with, or you end up working for the RTE. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Candie wrote: »
    Who's talking about Nigerians?

    Feel free to scroll back through the thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 irish horse


    The rich are rich because the spend like their poor.the poor are poor because the spend like their rich.well it's what I have noticed quite a bit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    mikemac2 wrote: »
    A farmer is a landowner and a labourer

    Find a class for that ha :pac:

    Petit bourgeoisie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    While permabear's list was good I think it possible ignored inherited capital(s) a bit much


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'm afraid that you are where you came from, old bean. If you're the type to buy his own furniture then you are not one of us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    The rich are rich because the spend like their poor.the poor are poor because the spend like their rich.well it's what I have noticed quite a bit.

    Yeh. That's why roman abromovich and Elton John are so poor now.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    Bambi985 wrote: »
    Strange really, I remember being a kid in the 80s/early 90s and there were 42 Niamhs and Aoifes and Daithis and Aislings in any given school year. Common as muck, those names were. About as exotic as a smack in the face.

    I have one of those names. Was born in the late 80's. Lived abroad for a lot of my childhood thinking I had the most exotic name going, feckin hated it too as no one could pronounce it. Then moved here and I was the 4th girl in my class with that name. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭__Alex__


    Bambi985 wrote: »
    Strange really, I remember being a kid in the 80s/early 90s and there were 42 Niamhs and Aoifes and Daithis and Aislings in any given school year. Common as muck, those names were. About as exotic as a smack in the face.

    Exactly! :D And Caoimhe, Conor, Seán, Sinéad, Siobhán etc. etc.


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,351 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Brought up in a working class household. Was first in the family to do well enough at school to go to university. My kids are being brought up in a middle class household. Their kids will probably be the same although they will probably have 2 generations to spoil them rotten....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,872 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Maybe it's different in Dublin, but since when are Irish names associated with having a high opinion of yourself? Names like Ronan, Ciara, Niamh, Cormac, Seán, Ciarán, Caoimhe, Maebh, Sinéad etc. were 10 a penny in my school, which is an english speaking community school in a town in Meath, not exactly a hotbed of the noveau middle class. They've gone on to be everything from being on the dole to mechanics, builders, musicians, farmers and doctors.

    Oddly enough when I think of my friends who went to private schools in Dublin (maybe 10 or so) only one had an "Irish" name.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    bladespin wrote: »
    This is Ireland, there is no class system here, or rather we would all be considered working class (apart from people's imagination), income brackets would be a better grouping.

    If you think there is no class system in Ireland next time you apply for a job use an address from the north inner city in Dublin.......see how you get in ;)

    My own experience is that Ireland is very class conscious, as bad, if not worse than the UK in some respects.

    I myself, am probably what you might call middle class - member of a "profession," house in the 'burbs, play golf, etc.......but plenty would say I'm working class given where I grew up.....I still see myself as working class and proud of it!

    Truth is, I'm probably somewhere in between......I didn't send my kids to a Gaeilscoil, but they do play rugby.......I enjoy eating out, as long as it's a good burger......I cycle to work, but it's an expensive bike......etc etc


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    There's multiple types of ways of looking at class to be honest, some focus more on social and cultural aspects and the more Marxist-orientated one focuses on economic position and power. Both have relevance in society and Ireland is no exception in that regard and although the social and cultural aspects may not be as pointed as the UK, they definitely do exist.

    For me, I always look at it in the sense of your economic position and as Marx called it, "relationship to the means of production." For instance it has always bemused me to hear Alan Sugar describe himself as working class when he is a multimillionaire employer, titled Lord and property owner (the epitome of not being working class).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭Winterlong


    Maybe it should be Welfare class, Working class, Professional class, Executive class and pure Toff class.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If you ignore Marxist classes then social class is mostly inherited. There's no real moving up although your children can.

    Reading doesn't cut it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Welfare payments and social supports are generous enough to have created a welfare class, generations of families who don't work and who really prefer not to work. A parasitic existence.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    From now on, I'm going to analyse the name of every person I meet in terms of what particular kind of **** their parents are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭whoopsadoodles


    I find the Irish name thing very odd. I've an Irish name as I said previously. My parents are very much working class. In my experience, the private school kids I know (which is quite a few) don't generally have Irish names and have much more English middle class type names.

    I also can't help but notice that the people saying that Irish names are a sign of the middle classes, don't actually live in Ireland, so perhaps it has been over exaggerated on social media or something because it's definitely not reality from what I can tell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    I find the Irish name thing very odd. I've an Irish name as I said previously. My parents are very much working class. In my experience, the private school kids I know (which is quite a few) don't generally have Irish names and have much more English middle class type names.

    I also can't help but notice that the people saying that Irish names are a sign of the middle classes, don't actually live in Ireland, so perhaps it has been over exaggerated on social media or something because it's definitely not reality from what I can tell.

    I've an Irish name as well and my parents are working class. My son also has an Irish name.....but I'm rich as f*ck.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭Winterlong


    I dont think there is a link between Irish names and class.

    Probably - some pretentious people give their kids stupid names try to show their culture/upward mobility/coolness or something. There are not too many of these IMO.

    Most people give their kids good names, Irish-english-polish whatever, because they like the name or have family links to that name.

    And some name their kids after whoever was number 1 on the Hit Parade on the day the kid was born. Good luck to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,759 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    They are all fairly run-of-the-mill names, Permabear.

    I think there is probably a conflation of certain Dublin-centric trends around schooling and perhaps even children's names with pretentiousness but the reality is that the things people from South County Dublin do will always be seen as pretentious.

    It seems to me that the reason for your perception that certain Irish names are given by pretentious people is that if you live in South County Dublin and want your children to have a good education but cannot afford, or simply do not want to pay for private schooling is that enrollment in the best non-fee-paying schools in the County requires that your children are bilingual. The Coláiste Íosagáin/Eoin feeder Gaelscoileanna don't absolutely preclude non-Irish speakers but there is a requirement that you have deference to the language.

    You might think that it's a bit of a stretch to name your child in a way that will get them an education but competition for the top schools in this area is fierce and any option will be explored if it is perceived that it will offer an advantage for a preferred school. It's no different to us hypocrites who actively reject religion but still baptise our children.

    As a result of the above, there is probably an association between Gaelgóirs and the well-to-do but it is not the same as naming your child as Gaeilge for social status. Unfortunately, you cannot escape your upbringing with a fancy name. Otherwise, we'd all be called Augustus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I suppose a mad idea would be not to judge people by what they name their child. If you believe class is something that strongly defines us then fair enough, but hold together a more cogent atguement than what people name their child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    I reckon most parents name the child a name they like, not that I'll give them a name that will suit the locals when they inevitably emigrate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,722 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    I always see an anti Irish names cohort on boards but I think its a regional thing. Where I'm from names like Jack, Ethan, Ben, Claire, Lilly, Abbie tend to be found amongst families of the horsie set (the two opposite ends of the scale).

    Irish name's in the middle though there are more and more unusual ones though names like Darragh or Liam would still be far more common then others.

    How anyone thinks Cillian (caoimhe same situation) is an unusal name is beyond me, after john and paul (thank you mr pope) it might have been the most common growing up. As for Odhran I knew 2 years back both from Waterford and know two kids now and think its a nice name. I'd take Odhran a thousand times over James or Lorcan.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    I would have thought relatively esoteric Irish names are a hallmark of the alluded trend but not most of the Irish names mentioned here.

    As for the increased interest in gaelscoileanna amongst the 'middle class' , I always, probably unfairly, assumed it was as much to do with avoiding schools perceived to be overly 'multicultural' as much as a love of the language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    I think the list posted earlier in the thread is quite good.

    Even though you can culturally allude to 'middle-class' values for the purposes of discussion, the definition have definitely been found ailing in modern society.

    Things are no way near as distinct as even 20 years ago. I'm from a very working class background; was the first in the family/wider family to go to unversity (MSc level) and I have a professional job in IT. We own a family home and my wife also owns another house but we still live in a fairly normal, suburban area (albeit not anywhere like where I was brought up and bought at the usual stupid Dublin price).

    We can afford to save and put aside money for the kids education. Our neighbours, for example, are a complete mix of what you would call white collar professionals and tradespeople/blue collar workers. Third level education for my kids is basically a given when it absolutely wasn't for me.

    What i'm (badly) driving at is that, especially in capital cities, the modern costs of living and property (and the subsequent trends like gentrification) has thrown the traditional markers of 'middle-class' into flux in a way that it hasn't for the dperived or the genuinely wealthy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    I'd take Odhran a thousand times over James or Lorcan.

    Madness. Lorcan is an animal name.

    You'd spend your entire life explaining Odhran.

    Orrin?

    Oddron?

    Bodhran?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    There's 'Orans' too, isn't there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,187 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    There's 'Orans' too, isn't there.

    I encountered a disproportionate amount of "Olan"s working in banks during the 2000s. Each time I'd have to suppress the urge to bellow in a Brian Blessed voice "Grrrrreetings O-Lan, king of the Hawk-Men!!" :pac:


  • Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's down to trends in names rather than pretensions I would say. When I'd my baby in 2012, the neo-natal nurse chatting to me during a long feed thought that the recent trends for names like Molly, Rose, Lily was terribly old-fashioned. She said they reminded her of her grandmothers and she would be maybe in her fifties. Jack was on my list and she thought that was terribly old fashioned too. So I think a lot of names would be cyclical.

    In the 80's there were hordes of Marys, Marie, Maria, and any variant of the name Mary in Irish and in English. I cant recall any baby in recent years having that name. In another couple of generations it will be trendy again and we'll have loads of them again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Back in the nineties I used to get CV's from Czech or Polish folks. Under their name they would put the phonetic spelling in brackets. No reason why Sadhbh cant do that for her job in OZ.

    The Siobhan's of our generation who went off on their J1's had the same issue too I'm sure.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭touts


    How I see the class structure in 2017 Ireland:

    Welfare Class (those who could work but couldn't be arsed because they are happy in the limited lifestyle welfare gives them. They are crammed into a three bed house with 3 in a room and a couple of big dogs in the kitchen. No holidays and a battered 1990s hatchback in the drive. They don't worry about the future because that's someone else's problem. Retirement isn't an issue because they retired after the Junior Cert)

    Working Class (those who work to get by but generally don't live that better a lifestyle than the welfare class. They might go on a cheap holiday every couple of years, they have a 10 year old car that they are driving into the ground, their homes are a little too small for the full family and two or three of the kids are in one bedroom. They have no safety net and illness or redundancy could easliy see them homeless. They will be working until 70 and then will have to look for a part time cash in hand jobs)

    Middle Class (those who work and can afford a bit better lifestyle with a holiday a year, change the car every couple of years for a slightly newer second hand one and no one shares a room in their house unless they want to. But they really haven't much of a safety net and generally worry about the future for college, retirement, illness etc. They will generally have a boom time house in negative equity that will probably never return to the price they paid for it. They will work until they are 68)

    Pre-recession Public Service Class (those on Celtic Tiger Public service pay and pensions who really have little to complain about but are the most vocal in the country about how bad they have it. They are just back from a week in the South African Wine Lands and are heading to Florida for their traditional three weeks in July. They get a new reg every couple of years probably a 1X2 reg to maximise the benefit of the year. They have a couple of spare bedrooms in a house they bought in the early 90s and paid off thanks to benchmarking and the SSIA. They are planning on how to retire at 55 because they just can't last until 60)

    Elite Class. (TDs, Senior civil servants, wealthy lawyers, business men etc. The nobility of 2017 Ireland. Money is no object. They have the highest Aerlingus gold circle membership and the points from that pay for their holidays every 3-4 months. Their 171 BMW has already been agreed for a trade in for the 172 model. They have more houses/apartments than family members so sharing a bedroom isn't a factor. They will never retire because why would one?).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭Pac1Man


    Let us spare a thought for Saoirse 'Sore-Eyes' Ronan.


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,759 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    As for the increased interest in gaelscoileanna amongst the 'middle class' , I always, probably unfairly, assumed it was as much to do with avoiding schools perceived to be overly 'multicultural' as much as a love of the language.

    Obviously it's more multi-faceted than any of us have the time or inclination to discuss fully here. But, in general terms, the reason for the interest in Gaelscoileanna (at least in South County Dublin) is because of the level of education. These schools are consistently at the top of the pile in terms of LC points and student matriculation into University or similar and have been for some time now.

    They are competing with schools who are charging €5,000.00 plus per student per year and in many cases, they are doing substantially better on the metrics parents value.

    I believe the recent increase in Irish names is also multi-faceted (and includes the earlier point that having an Irish name is no longer considered a disadvantage, rightly or wrongly) but the prevalence in South County Dublin is imo undoubtedly associated with a desire to have the option of a Gaelscoil to send your child to. It may be the case that it caught on as a fashion thereafter and some people do it out of pretension but surprisingly enough, not everyone who lives in the area is that much of a cnut.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Anyone who grew up in/lives in a council house is working class.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Neyite wrote: »
    Back in the nineties I used to get CV's from Czech or Polish folks. Under their name they would put the phonetic spelling in brackets. No reason why Sadhbh cant do that for her job in OZ.

    The Siobhan's of our generation who went off on their J1's had the same issue too I'm sure.

    I work with a lady with an Irish name - not even one of the more metaphysical ones, but it's still a spelling that doesn't give someone who is unfamiliar with the language the slightest hint as to how it might possibly be pronounced.

    We work for a multi-national company in Ireland, and her role involves working colleagues all across Europe and the Middle East. Whenever I happen to mention her name on the phone to someone new(-ish) I'm usually met with audible relief that the person I talk to now 1) knows what the name's supposed to sound like and 2) that she is in fact female.
    I know that a good number of people never initially pick up the phone to her as they're too worried to offend by not being able to say her name.

    It's not a massive big deal, but it is a little stumbling block.

    The thing that cracked me up was when she told me how, coming back from holiday one year, the passport controller in Dublin Airport looked at her name on the passport, looked up at her and said "What country is that kind of name from, then?"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I work with a lady with an Irish name - not even one of the more metaphysical ones, but it's still a spelling that doesn't give someone who is unfamiliar with the language the slightest hint as to how it might possibly be pronounced.

    We work for a multi-national company in Ireland, and her role involves working colleagues all across Europe and the Middle East. Whenever I happen to mention her name on the phone to someone new(-ish) I'm usually met with audible relief that the person I talk to now 1) knows what the name's supposed to sound like and 2) that she is in fact female.
    I know that a good number of people never initially pick up the phone to her as they're too worried to offend by not being able to say her name.

    It's not a massive big deal, but it is a little stumbling block.

    The thing that cracked me up was when she told me how, coming back from holiday one year, the passport controller in Dublin Airport looked at her name on the passport, looked up at her and said "What country is that kind of name from, then?"

    That genius is in the wrong job if struggling with names on passports.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    @Samuel T.: I think I asked you this question yesterday and was thinking of opening a thread with the very same question, thanks for giving me a read while feeding my nipper :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    These schools are consistently at the top of the pile in terms of LC points and student matriculation into University or similar and have been for some time now.

    Is it true that students get extra points for sitting the leaving certificate in Irish?

    Not knocking Irish schools by the way. My previous post was an observation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Is it true that students get extra points for sitting the leaving certificate in Irish?

    Not knocking Irish schools by the way. My previous post was an observation.

    I believe they get 10% extra, and teachers also get a higher salary for teaching Ãs Gaeilge.


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