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Who's working class? Rather!

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    #62
    __Alex__
    Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭__Alex__


    Bambi985 wrote: »
    Strange really, I remember being a kid in the 80s/early 90s and there were 42 Niamhs and Aoifes and Daithis and Aislings in any given school year. Common as muck, those names were. About as exotic as a smack in the face.

    Exactly! :D And Caoimhe, Conor, Seán, Sinéad, Siobhán etc. etc.


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    #63
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,866 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Brought up in a working class household. Was first in the family to do well enough at school to go to university. My kids are being brought up in a middle class household. Their kids will probably be the same although they will probably have 2 generations to spoil them rotten....


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    #64
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #65
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Maybe it's different in Dublin, but since when are Irish names associated with having a high opinion of yourself? Names like Ronan, Ciara, Niamh, Cormac, Seán, Ciarán, Caoimhe, Maebh, Sinéad etc. were 10 a penny in my school, which is an english speaking community school in a town in Meath, not exactly a hotbed of the noveau middle class. They've gone on to be everything from being on the dole to mechanics, builders, musicians, farmers and doctors.

    Oddly enough when I think of my friends who went to private schools in Dublin (maybe 10 or so) only one had an "Irish" name.


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    #66
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    bladespin wrote: »
    This is Ireland, there is no class system here, or rather we would all be considered working class (apart from people's imagination), income brackets would be a better grouping.

    If you think there is no class system in Ireland next time you apply for a job use an address from the north inner city in Dublin.......see how you get in ;)

    My own experience is that Ireland is very class conscious, as bad, if not worse than the UK in some respects.

    I myself, am probably what you might call middle class - member of a "profession," house in the 'burbs, play golf, etc.......but plenty would say I'm working class given where I grew up.....I still see myself as working class and proud of it!

    Truth is, I'm probably somewhere in between......I didn't send my kids to a Gaeilscoil, but they do play rugby.......I enjoy eating out, as long as it's a good burger......I cycle to work, but it's an expensive bike......etc etc


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    #67
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    There's multiple types of ways of looking at class to be honest, some focus more on social and cultural aspects and the more Marxist-orientated one focuses on economic position and power. Both have relevance in society and Ireland is no exception in that regard and although the social and cultural aspects may not be as pointed as the UK, they definitely do exist.

    For me, I always look at it in the sense of your economic position and as Marx called it, "relationship to the means of production." For instance it has always bemused me to hear Alan Sugar describe himself as working class when he is a multimillionaire employer, titled Lord and property owner (the epitome of not being working class).


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    #68
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #69
    Winterlong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭Winterlong


    Maybe it should be Welfare class, Working class, Professional class, Executive class and pure Toff class.


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    #70
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If you ignore Marxist classes then social class is mostly inherited. There's no real moving up although your children can.

    Reading doesn't cut it.


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    #71
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Welfare payments and social supports are generous enough to have created a welfare class, generations of families who don't work and who really prefer not to work. A parasitic existence.


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    #72
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,586 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    From now on, I'm going to analyse the name of every person I meet in terms of what particular kind of **** their parents are.


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    #73
    whoopsadoodles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭whoopsadoodles


    I find the Irish name thing very odd. I've an Irish name as I said previously. My parents are very much working class. In my experience, the private school kids I know (which is quite a few) don't generally have Irish names and have much more English middle class type names.

    I also can't help but notice that the people saying that Irish names are a sign of the middle classes, don't actually live in Ireland, so perhaps it has been over exaggerated on social media or something because it's definitely not reality from what I can tell.


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    #74
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    whoopsadoodles wrote: »
    I find the Irish name thing very odd. I've an Irish name as I said previously. My parents are very much working class. In my experience, the private school kids I know (which is quite a few) don't generally have Irish names and have much more English middle class type names.

    I also can't help but notice that the people saying that Irish names are a sign of the middle classes, don't actually live in Ireland, so perhaps it has been over exaggerated on social media or something because it's definitely not reality from what I can tell.

    I've an Irish name as well and my parents are working class. My son also has an Irish name.....but I'm rich as f*ck.


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    #75
    Winterlong
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭Winterlong


    I dont think there is a link between Irish names and class.

    Probably - some pretentious people give their kids stupid names try to show their culture/upward mobility/coolness or something. There are not too many of these IMO.

    Most people give their kids good names, Irish-english-polish whatever, because they like the name or have family links to that name.

    And some name their kids after whoever was number 1 on the Hit Parade on the day the kid was born. Good luck to them.


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    #76
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #77
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,719 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    They are all fairly run-of-the-mill names, Permabear.

    I think there is probably a conflation of certain Dublin-centric trends around schooling and perhaps even children's names with pretentiousness but the reality is that the things people from South County Dublin do will always be seen as pretentious.

    It seems to me that the reason for your perception that certain Irish names are given by pretentious people is that if you live in South County Dublin and want your children to have a good education but cannot afford, or simply do not want to pay for private schooling is that enrollment in the best non-fee-paying schools in the County requires that your children are bilingual. The Coláiste Íosagáin/Eoin feeder Gaelscoileanna don't absolutely preclude non-Irish speakers but there is a requirement that you have deference to the language.

    You might think that it's a bit of a stretch to name your child in a way that will get them an education but competition for the top schools in this area is fierce and any option will be explored if it is perceived that it will offer an advantage for a preferred school. It's no different to us hypocrites who actively reject religion but still baptise our children.

    As a result of the above, there is probably an association between Gaelgóirs and the well-to-do but it is not the same as naming your child as Gaeilge for social status. Unfortunately, you cannot escape your upbringing with a fancy name. Otherwise, we'd all be called Augustus.


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    #78
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I suppose a mad idea would be not to judge people by what they name their child. If you believe class is something that strongly defines us then fair enough, but hold together a more cogent atguement than what people name their child.


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    #79
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #80
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    I reckon most parents name the child a name they like, not that I'll give them a name that will suit the locals when they inevitably emigrate.


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    #81
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,714 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    I always see an anti Irish names cohort on boards but I think its a regional thing. Where I'm from names like Jack, Ethan, Ben, Claire, Lilly, Abbie tend to be found amongst families of the horsie set (the two opposite ends of the scale).

    Irish name's in the middle though there are more and more unusual ones though names like Darragh or Liam would still be far more common then others.

    How anyone thinks Cillian (caoimhe same situation) is an unusal name is beyond me, after john and paul (thank you mr pope) it might have been the most common growing up. As for Odhran I knew 2 years back both from Waterford and know two kids now and think its a nice name. I'd take Odhran a thousand times over James or Lorcan.


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    #82
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    I would have thought relatively esoteric Irish names are a hallmark of the alluded trend but not most of the Irish names mentioned here.

    As for the increased interest in gaelscoileanna amongst the 'middle class' , I always, probably unfairly, assumed it was as much to do with avoiding schools perceived to be overly 'multicultural' as much as a love of the language.


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    #83
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    I think the list posted earlier in the thread is quite good.

    Even though you can culturally allude to 'middle-class' values for the purposes of discussion, the definition have definitely been found ailing in modern society.

    Things are no way near as distinct as even 20 years ago. I'm from a very working class background; was the first in the family/wider family to go to unversity (MSc level) and I have a professional job in IT. We own a family home and my wife also owns another house but we still live in a fairly normal, suburban area (albeit not anywhere like where I was brought up and bought at the usual stupid Dublin price).

    We can afford to save and put aside money for the kids education. Our neighbours, for example, are a complete mix of what you would call white collar professionals and tradespeople/blue collar workers. Third level education for my kids is basically a given when it absolutely wasn't for me.

    What i'm (badly) driving at is that, especially in capital cities, the modern costs of living and property (and the subsequent trends like gentrification) has thrown the traditional markers of 'middle-class' into flux in a way that it hasn't for the dperived or the genuinely wealthy.


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    #84
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #85
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    I'd take Odhran a thousand times over James or Lorcan.

    Madness. Lorcan is an animal name.

    You'd spend your entire life explaining Odhran.

    Orrin?

    Oddron?

    Bodhran?


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    #86
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    There's 'Orans' too, isn't there.


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    #87
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    andekwarhola wrote: »
    There's 'Orans' too, isn't there.

    I encountered a disproportionate amount of "Olan"s working in banks during the 2000s. Each time I'd have to suppress the urge to bellow in a Brian Blessed voice "Grrrrreetings O-Lan, king of the Hawk-Men!!" :pac:


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    #88
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's down to trends in names rather than pretensions I would say. When I'd my baby in 2012, the neo-natal nurse chatting to me during a long feed thought that the recent trends for names like Molly, Rose, Lily was terribly old-fashioned. She said they reminded her of her grandmothers and she would be maybe in her fifties. Jack was on my list and she thought that was terribly old fashioned too. So I think a lot of names would be cyclical.

    In the 80's there were hordes of Marys, Marie, Maria, and any variant of the name Mary in Irish and in English. I cant recall any baby in recent years having that name. In another couple of generations it will be trendy again and we'll have loads of them again.


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    #89
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #90
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Back in the nineties I used to get CV's from Czech or Polish folks. Under their name they would put the phonetic spelling in brackets. No reason why Sadhbh cant do that for her job in OZ.

    The Siobhan's of our generation who went off on their J1's had the same issue too I'm sure.


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    #91
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭touts


    How I see the class structure in 2017 Ireland:

    Welfare Class (those who could work but couldn't be arsed because they are happy in the limited lifestyle welfare gives them. They are crammed into a three bed house with 3 in a room and a couple of big dogs in the kitchen. No holidays and a battered 1990s hatchback in the drive. They don't worry about the future because that's someone else's problem. Retirement isn't an issue because they retired after the Junior Cert)

    Working Class (those who work to get by but generally don't live that better a lifestyle than the welfare class. They might go on a cheap holiday every couple of years, they have a 10 year old car that they are driving into the ground, their homes are a little too small for the full family and two or three of the kids are in one bedroom. They have no safety net and illness or redundancy could easliy see them homeless. They will be working until 70 and then will have to look for a part time cash in hand jobs)

    Middle Class (those who work and can afford a bit better lifestyle with a holiday a year, change the car every couple of years for a slightly newer second hand one and no one shares a room in their house unless they want to. But they really haven't much of a safety net and generally worry about the future for college, retirement, illness etc. They will generally have a boom time house in negative equity that will probably never return to the price they paid for it. They will work until they are 68)

    Pre-recession Public Service Class (those on Celtic Tiger Public service pay and pensions who really have little to complain about but are the most vocal in the country about how bad they have it. They are just back from a week in the South African Wine Lands and are heading to Florida for their traditional three weeks in July. They get a new reg every couple of years probably a 1X2 reg to maximise the benefit of the year. They have a couple of spare bedrooms in a house they bought in the early 90s and paid off thanks to benchmarking and the SSIA. They are planning on how to retire at 55 because they just can't last until 60)

    Elite Class. (TDs, Senior civil servants, wealthy lawyers, business men etc. The nobility of 2017 Ireland. Money is no object. They have the highest Aerlingus gold circle membership and the points from that pay for their holidays every 3-4 months. Their 171 BMW has already been agreed for a trade in for the 172 model. They have more houses/apartments than family members so sharing a bedroom isn't a factor. They will never retire because why would one?).


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