Who's working class? Rather!

Samuel T. Cogley

Have I got News for You reference aside I find this an ineresting one and a side discussion in a recent thread I though deserves it's own thread.

What do you see and working class and middle class?

For me it's not money it's education and profession. Middle class people tend to fall into the traditional professions like Lawyers, Doctors etc. I also think that it's shifted drastically over the last few years, a degree now for example can be a requirement for a skilled working class job, previously a degree almost always put you in a middle class profession.

This isn't a dig or a reason to get one's nose out of joint. I think it's an interesting topic of conversation. Working class and proud of it, to the point fo being a bit of an inverted snob.

marketty

If more working class people realised that they are in fact working class, things would be a lot better in this country. A lot of people are of the belief that the working class don't work, and that the degree educated average earners are automatically middle class. This perception of themselves as upwardly mobile young go getters just plays into the hands of politicians and others who want us all to believe that the poor are lazy scum and the cause of all the countries problems

Permabear

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bladespin

This is Ireland, there is no class system here, or rather we would all be considered working class (apart from people's imagination), income brackets would be a better grouping.

Samuel T. Cogley

bladespin wrote: »

This is Ireland, there is no class system here, or rather we would all be considered working class (apart from people's imagination), income brackets would be a better grouping.

I completely disagree here. Income is not really related to where you fit in. I'm way happier in Kilbarrack than I would be in Sandymount for example.

bladespin

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I completely disagree here. Income is not really related to where you fit in. I'm way happier in Kilbarrack than I would be in Sandymount for example.

I wasn't suggesting that tbh sorry, just that if you 'want' to generalize groups then that might be a better way.

Glenster

Working Class - Paid Weekly

Middle Class - Paid Monthly

Winterlong

I am working.
And I am class. Pure class.

Permabear

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mikemac2

A farmer is a landowner and a labourer

Find a class for that ha :pac:

bladespin

Permabear wrote: »

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Maybe in their imagination, but we all know

bladespin

mikemac2 wrote: »

A farmer is a landowner and a labourer

Find a class for that ha :pac:

Landed gentry?

biko

Who is this Rather that is working class?

JuliusCaesar

Glenster wrote: »

Working Class - Paid Weekly

Middle Class - Paid Monthly

so.. the Paid Fortnightly are the Working Middle?

Samuel T. Cogley

biko wrote: »

Who is this Rather that is working class?

Omackeral

Working class people don't work from what I gather.




Take it easy!

Samuel T. Cogley

Omackeral wrote: »

Working class people don't work from what I gather.




Take it easy!

That's one of my issues with the old class system is this is not someone who is working class. An overiding facet of the 'working class' IMO is the work ethic.

One eyed Jack

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

What do you see and working class and middle class?

The criterion that Permabear quoted are a good measure of the different classes that could be applied to any society, not just British or Irish society, as they take into account some of the factors that influence class, social mobility, and equity of opportunity. They consider social, cultural and economic factors, but I would add three more to that list to suggest that political, geographical and technological factors also influence social class, social mobility (upwards as well as downgraded), and equity of opportunity.

hatrickpatrick

Permabear wrote: »

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Ok now this is an interesting one - I'd never have linked the 'acceptability' or 'likelihood' of choosing certain names for one's kids with socioeconomic class. If your view is a widely held one and has correlations, that's pretty fascinating. Even more so since you've chosen Gaeilge names - can you think of any names as Gaeilge which you would associate with lower socioeconomic classes or is choosing names in the native language something restricted to the middle / upper classes? And if so, how did this come about, where did such a division originate?

steddyeddy

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's one of my issues with the old class system is this is not someone who is working class. An overiding facet of the 'working class' IMO is the work ethic.

Working class people I knew growing up worked harder than anyone I know.

Irish Praetorian

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I don't think he's shouting 'rather' I think he's saying 'Bravo!', which sort of makes more sense.

5rtytry56

Permabear wrote: »

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Also if your kids are called Nollaig and Grannia and you refuse to shop at Lidl you're probably in the same bracket.

Anyone else not care about whether they're considered working/middle/upper class? Once I've enough money to come and go as I please I'm happy, don't care if the neighbours think they're better than me. Go back a few generations and we're all descended from a mixture of people who in their time would have been considered lower, middle, upper class etc...

jimgoose

I'd probably be what you could call "middle class" with a straight face, only for latte gives me terrible trapped wind. So I am destined to wander the corridors of polite society in a sort of ghostly torment, collar up and scarf on at six in the evening, moaning in grief for a grandeur faded. And if I mangle any more metaphors the Universe will kick me in the ear, so I shall stop now.

Permabear

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whoopsadoodles

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone else not care about whether they're considered working/middle/upper class? Once I've enough money to come and go as I please I'm happy, don't care if the neighbours think they're better than me. Go back a few generations and we're all descended from a mixture of people who in their time would have been considered lower, middle, upper class etc...

o/

I couldn't care less.

I come from a very working class background but would now be considered middle class and would be in regular company of all of the classes. I don't change depending on who I am speaking to. I don't hide where I'm from. I don't care that some of the working classes think I'm a snob and some of the middle and upper classes probably think I'm a knacker. Couldn't give a fiddlers.

I leave my very nice house in my very nice car and I drive down to see my parents in the old council house that I grew up in and where my boyracer mobile lives in the winter. I shop in lidl/aldi/dunnes/supervalu (but never tesco :mad:). I go to fancy restaurants where everyone has perfect pearly whites and I go my old local where some of the punters haven't had teeth in their head in years and I fit in in both. (although I probably would swear less in the fancy restaurants to be fair )

Oh and I have an Irish name and like them too

Glenster

As far as I'm concerned gradations of class only apply to people in towns/cities.

Boggers are not any of the seven/three classes. They are boggers.

5rtytry56

Glenster wrote: »

Boggers are not any of the seven/three classes. They are boggers.

so all culchies belong to the bogger class.

jimgoose

bladespin wrote: »

This is Ireland, there is no class system here, or rather we would all be considered working class (apart from people's imagination), income brackets would be a better grouping.

There is one interesting divide that seems to have most people in one of two camps, as far as I can see broadly along socio-economic/education lines in the time-honoured tradition of the the Hoi-Polloi vs. the Rawthah More Refained people. To wit, the latter are inclined to view Government as something to be engaged with and participated in, whereas the former group are more inclined to view it as something that lives "up there" somewhere and does things to them.

Permabear

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fred funk }{

Working class have their name on their shirt. Middle class have their name on their desk and upper class have their name on the building.

Samuel T. Cogley

__Alex__

Working class background, education would probaby nudge me into the ol' middle class bracket. But I got a great upbringing that instilled good values, so I just look at people's backgrounds that way; were they instilled with good values? Working, middle, upper, doesn't matter to me; people can't help what family they were born into. If you're a decent person, you're fine by me.

__Alex__

Permabear wrote: »

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My Dad loves spotting these types that he knows at his local Aldi. (small West of Ireland town) He even often beelines for them to have a chat to ramp up their awkwardness. Brat.

jimgoose

__Alex__ wrote: »

My Dad loves spotting these types that he knows at his local Aldi. (small West of Ireland town) He even often beelines for them to have a chat to ramp up their awkwardness. Brat.

Fock, it's like, Skobie O' Gill and the Lidl people!

__Alex__

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok now this is an interesting one - I'd never have linked the 'acceptability' or 'likelihood' of choosing certain names for one's kids with socioeconomic class. If your view is a widely held one and has correlations, that's pretty fascinating. Even more so since you've chosen Gaeilge names - can you think of any names as Gaeilge which you would associate with lower socioeconomic classes or is choosing names in the native language something restricted to the middle / upper classes? And if so, how did this come about, where did such a division originate?

Actually, I agree. Irish names transcend class in Ireland from what I can see. Grew up in an area with a mixture of working- and middle-class. Irish names were just widespread in general.

It's a media-influenced trope, I think, that the middle class couples all have Irish-named children.

Permabear

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__Alex__

Permabear wrote: »

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Most people I know who have done that have done it to give themselves a measure of anonymity of Facebook to the randomer trying to find them. I hate Irish (I mean, really hate it) but have my Irish surname on Facebook for this very reason as I have an unusual surname that many wouldn't know the Irish for.

__Alex__

Permabear wrote: »

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Same. Pops keeps an eye out for the M&S and Super Valu bags.

Back in the day before the advent on online gambling, he also used to love observing people nervously trying to skulk into the local bookies.

I've just realised how ruthless small town people like my pops are!

I stayed in a luxury B&B last year, where the owner would be from upper-class Anglo-Irish stock. He unashamedly told us he shops in Aldi (wonder if our breakfast came from there! :eek:), no pretension at all. It's the middle-classes that care about this shit.

Names are used to display either the tribe you belong to, or the tribe you aspire to belong to. I went to school with a Cordelia, a Cecily, and a Jemima, among other traditional British names (I am English).

Some would have had the names passed down and been named after a favourite aunt or whatever, but when you've met a Russian called Persephone it can really hit home how parental aspiration can be obvious to everyone, except of course, the parents.

Permabear

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H3llR4iser

Technical Middle Class: This is a new, small class with high economic capital but seem less culturally engaged. They have relatively few social contacts and so are less socially engaged.

TL;DR: Nerds who are extremely good at doing stuff and paid accordingly, but feckin' awkward when it comes to speak to other people.

Basically they created an entire new social class for the vast majority of IT workers, software engineers specifically .

And before anyone goes "not true!", I am indeed a software engineer. I know what I'm talking about >_<

Permabear

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5rtytry56

Permabear wrote: »

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^^THIS

ZeroThreat

H3llR4iser wrote: »

TL;DR: Nerds who are extremely good at doing stuff and paid accordingly, but feckin' awkward when it comes to speak to other people.

Basically they created an entire new social class for the vast majority of IT workers, software engineers specifically .

And before anyone goes "not true!", I am indeed a software engineer. I know what I'm talking about >_<

Having attended professional accountancy body evening/weekend lectures, I'd have to say that many people working in finance areas seem even more socially inept than the techies.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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Unpronounceable and unspellable. I often wonder if there's an element of stressing one's racial purity involved!

One of my aunts has a nice name, but my paternal great-grandmother changed her name from Meera to Moira when telling her neighbours about her new granddaughter. Obviously, her mixed race grandchildren and son-in-law were banned from the house, lest people in the village figure out that her daughter didn't marry a nice pale Catholic boy when they saw the pride of brown babies. My grandfather never met his in-laws.

This makes me suspicious of people who determinedly adopt Irish or any other language names, when they have no other interest in either the language or culture.

Bambi985

I think in Ireland we're a lot more snobbish than we pretend to be, despite us all being a few generations away from poverty. The aspirational class thing comes out in the obsession with postcodes, increasingly obscure baby names as gaeilgethe D4 accent and the "what do you do?" question that crops up almost immediately on meeting someone new.

Zebra3

Jaysus, lot of bitterness towards people giving their kids Irish language names.

I know loads of people who have done so and there's not a hope in hell that the reason is to differentiate from some Nigerians. I mean of all the immigrants to be supposedly needing to differentiate from, Nigerians? Ffs. :rolleyes:

Many of these people have been immigrants themselves or have returned home after being moved/born abroad because their parents emigrated and are proud of being Irish. Also the success of Riverdance has definitely helped increase people's pride in their own culture/language.

But if faux accusations of racism make people feel better......

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote: »

Jaysus, lot of bitterness towards people giving their kids Irish language names.

I know loads of people who have done so and there's not a hope in hell that the reason is to differentiate from some Nigerians. I mean of all the immigrants to be supposedly needing to differentiate from, Nigerians? Ffs. :rolleyes:

Many of these people have been immigrants themselves or have returned home after being moved/born abroad because their parents emigrated and are proud of being Irish. Also the success of Riverdance has definitely helped increase people's pride in their own culture/language.

But if faux accusations of racism make people feel better......

Who's talking about Nigerians?

Pft. Nobody is being accused of racism, just of being a little too caught up in their 'pedigree'. Some people would take it too far, and there's lots of people with the most Irish of Irish names who have no other engagement with the language. It's just rather pointed, and that's fine if it's just pride but it's also being used as a social signifier.

__Alex__

Candie wrote: »

This makes me suspicious of people who determinedly adopt Irish or any other language names, when they have no other interest in either the language or culture.

Just speaking for myself here but I hated learning Irish and was terrible at it but I really love lots of Irish names. There is nothing more to it than that for me!

Atoms for Peace

"Here you come to the real secret of class distinctions in the West--the real reason why a European of bourgeois upbringing, even when he calls himself a Communist, cannot without a hard effort think of a working man as his equal. It is summed up in four frightful words which people nowadays are chary of uttering, but which were bandied about quite freely in my childhood. The words were: The lower classes smell."
http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier/7.html