Tesla Model S

unkel · 27-04-2020 9:11am

ELM327 wrote: »

Anyone buying a Taycan is certifiably insane.

I don't agree with that either. Thinking of trading in one of my kids (or the wife) plus my Model S for a Taycan :pac:

Lumen · 27-04-2020 9:13am

ELM327 wrote: »

Anyone buying a Taycan is certifiably insane. Over 50k more, less range, less power, less 0-60 and less charging options including no Suc.

The Taycan is not over 50k more expensive.

There is less range but the Taycan charges much faster and some reports suggest the Taycan is closer to its advertised range in real world tests than the Teslas.

I don't know what the real world performance difference is, e.g. from cold at 80%.

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 9:25am

unkel wrote: »

I don't agree with that either. Thinking of trading in one of my kids (or the wife) plus my Model S for a Taycan :pac:

Only if you include the cost savings by removing family members would a Taycan make sense.:cool:

Lumen wrote: »

The Taycan is not over 50k more expensive.

There is less range but the Taycan charges much faster and some reports suggest the Taycan is closer to its advertised range in real world tests than the Teslas.

I don't know what the real world performance difference is, e.g. from cold at 80%.

Have you tried specing up a Taycan performance model?
Including such "optional extras" as folding mirrors and a type 2 cable?

Compare this to the Model S Performance and you'll see 50k+ of a delta

It charges faster, yes, but has much much less options to do so. Closer to advertised range is a non issue, when the closer to is still less. They are thirsty, not fast, limited charging, too expensive, nonsense. I cannot see why anyone would buy one.

It's a porsche, supposed to be a performance car, but yet does not beat the only existing EV performance sedan in any way bar price (as in its more expensive!)

Near 200k Euro for the performance model, before adding the "optional extras". Not to mention it is half a second slower to 60 than the performance S
https://www.porsche.com/uk/_ireland_/modelstart/all/?modelrange=taycan

unkel · 27-04-2020 9:27am

ELM327 wrote: »

Only if you include the cost savings by removing family members would a Taycan make sense.:cool:

I didn't even think of that. Maybe Tesla do have a point after all when they are advertising the "price after savings"

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 9:35am

Black_Knight wrote: »

Guess it depends on your competencies. I've done a few installs on my old car. Door warning lights, footwell lights, rear view camera install. Replaced the boot loom too when the boot release started acting up. Turned out it was frayed wires like in the video above. Replaced the loom fully though. 65 quid.

IMO, worth investigating for zero cost if it happens to ya

I'd be happier doing something mechanical, those electrics look way too fiddly. Last big job I did was a TB + water pump on a 3.0 Jag S type. Much happier fettling away at a car worth 500 quid!

If so much as a window reg goes on my car it'll be in to Tesla to do.

Lumen · 27-04-2020 10:10am

ELM327 wrote: »

Have you tried specing up a Taycan performance model?

You mean the Turbo S? No. It's Ferrari money, so I don't think it's a useful comparison.

I tried to price a 4S on the IE site and didn't get very far. The ****tiness of Porsche's Irish presence is annoying. You go to the website with a €200k budget and within 2 clicks you're on the UK website.

Anyway, I looked at the UK site. The bigger battery is £4,613, and if I'm OK with Tesla quality I'm going to be happy to ignore most of the Porsche options. I reckon with bigger battery, paint, leather, charging tweaks I could squeak in under £90k, which is between the UK prices for the Model S LR and P.

I have no idea why the Taycan is so expensive in Ireland compared to the UK. What am I missing?

As for the performance considerations you mentioned, aside from drag racing with a warmed battery, there is no way I'd pick any Model S over any Taycan for performance. Acceleration from rest is only one very narrow part of performance. I haven't come across anyone who thinks the S drives better. I'm not criticizing it for that, and deliberately left that aspect out of the comparison, but you did bring it up.

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 10:14am

The Turbo S may be ferrari money but it's slower to 60 than the cheaper S Performance.

I presume the delta is VRT. The car is more expensive to begin with and gets hit with VAT and VRT.
If you're not looking at the performance vs performance then it's the LR vs the mid spec.

unkel · 27-04-2020 10:25am

Lumen wrote: »

I have no idea why the Taycan is so expensive in Ireland compared to the UK. What am I missing?

VRT

(and 23% VAT compared to 20% VAT in the UK)

Lumen · 27-04-2020 10:36am

unkel wrote: »

VRT

(and 23% VAT compared to 20% VAT in the UK)

I meant why the 4S and Model S are about the same price in UK but far apart in Ireland.

Bring back the days of a proper price list! These brochure websites and configurators are infuriating.

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 10:39am

+1
And if I was spending 200k on a performance car, I'd be getting a used F430 with 100k over to buy a model X performance used.

unkel · 27-04-2020 10:41am

Lumen wrote: »

I meant why the 4S and Model S are about the same price in UK but far apart in Ireland.

Model S is a bargain in Ireland (net of tax) compared to other countries. Same way as the Model 3 is overpriced (except for the performance). Tesla pricing moves in mysterious ways as I am very glad I found in my own situation :pac:

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 10:49am

unkel wrote: »

Model S is a bargain in Ireland (net of tax) compared to other countries. Same way as the Model 3 is overpriced (except for the performance). Tesla pricing moves in mysterious ways as I am very glad I found in my own situation :pac:

+1

What standard range Taycan do you get for 80k?

https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/new/5YJSB7E27KF338523?postal=95141&coord=37.3388,-121.8914&redirect=no

Or top of the range performance model for under 110k including lifetime free charging?
https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/new/5YJSB7E46KF331659?postal=95141&coord=37.3388,-121.8914&redirect=no

Lumen · 27-04-2020 10:55am

unkel wrote: »

Model S is a bargain in Ireland (net of tax) compared to other countries. Same way as the Model 3 is overpriced (except for the performance). Tesla pricing moves in mysterious ways as I am very glad I found in my own situation :pac:

Yeah, but the UK have zero BIK and a salary sacrifice scheme!

So you can get a Model S P (or Taycan

) over 8 years (battery warranty period) for the equivalent of about £500/mo after tax with zero down.

Lumen · 27-04-2020 12:04pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The new S update is coming within 12 months, with the Plaid drivetrain.

On that subject, did you read this?

Elon Musk: Tesla is going to ‘simplify’ Plaid tri-motor upgrade, ‘was getting too complex’
https://electrek.co/2020/04/04/elon-musk-tesla-simplify-plaid-tri-motor-upgrade/

IMO the laptime chasing stuff is a dead end until batteries become substantially lighter and less prone to degradation.

They'd be better off focusing on temperature management and NVH. A double glazed model S with nicer cabin materials and with charging performance of a Model 3 +30% (possible with the larger battery) could help cement the S as the ultimate planet-hugging, tarmac-ripping luxobarge.

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 12:07pm

The issue is it wont be solved without moving from the 18XXX to 21XXX cells in the S/X and I don't see them switching course now when they didnt after the 3 launched in 2017-18.

That's an interesting article which I hadnt read.

unkel · 27-04-2020 12:31pm

Lumen wrote: »

could help cement the S as the ultimate planet-hugging, tarmac-ripping luxobarge.

It already is and has been for the guts of a decade. And there's nothing much out there that can touch it, even now. No wonder Tesla isn't really fussed doing an awful lot with it. It's not making much money and never has, it's the halo car that put Tesla on the map globally. They're concentrating on the cash cows now, Model 3 and in particular Model Y.

AndyBoBandy · 27-04-2020 3:17pm

Can you see Tesla doing any Luxobarges ever again?? ala the S & X, or major refreshes of S & X

The 1st Roadster was to prove the tech, and pave the way for the S, which in turn (along with the X) was to get the company in a position to produce the cheaper mass market cars (3 & Y), so what'll be their next move after these? something small & compact? or perhaps a cheaper (to produce) S/X sized barges?

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 3:33pm

Theres a refresh of the S and X due within 12 months. Including interior update and plaid drivetrain with tri motor setup and 110kWh pack

slave1 · 27-04-2020 3:37pm

Let's not forget continuing production and global launch of the Y, Roadster 2, Semi and Cybertruck, not to mention Tesla Roof and Powerwalls.
They have plenty to keep them busy, I'd say the S, 3, X and Y are forever more and will never be discontinued, just updated with little fanfare.

ELM327 · 27-04-2020 4:09pm

I think Elon sees himself as Henry Ford, Edison, and Hank Scorpio all tied into one. And Ford was famous for running the same model for years on end.

Sabre Man · 27-04-2020 4:14pm

Tesla has to keep Model S and X to complete the S3XY lineup.

unkel · 27-04-2020 4:36pm

Sexy cars!

slave1 · 27-04-2020 4:44pm

So looking at various MS in the UK again (Corona boredom) and onto the Sandyford guys (after reading about it in the forum) and you need to bring it in if you're switching from 21s to 19s (or visa versa) for a software update, mad Ted mad.
My concerns on the 21s is herself will just kerb them and then the grief afterwards.

slave1 · 27-04-2020 5:05pm

sk8board · 27-04-2020 8:36pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Theres a refresh of the S and X due within 12 months. Including interior update and plaid drivetrain with tri motor setup and 110kWh pack

All manufacturers do those midlife changes to run out all their remaining production runs before retooling a factory. the model S is now 8 year old and the exterior is starting to age, yet it’s still €95-€100k with some basic options.
I think the model Y LR or Perf will kill the S. why pay €20k more for a 8-10 year old model?

re the Taycan -
in reality a taycan 4S is a 911 carerra S without the running costs and €40k in the glovebox.

Some good reviews Matt Farahs channel this week - as a petrolhead he fawned over it.

unkel · 27-04-2020 9:41pm

sk8board wrote: »

I think the model Y LR or Perf will kill the S

That's like saying a BMW 330i will kill the BMW 750i

sk8board · 28-04-2020 8:07am

unkel wrote: »

That's like saying a BMW 330i will kill the BMW 750i

It’s like saying BMW are no longer updating the 7 series when the old one is just fine and the 3 series is new and has similar range.

The person spending €95k on an S isn’t shopping it against ICE cars in that specific price - they’re buying it primarily because they want a Tesla and that was the price to play.

the sales of S and X are now dropping off a cliff due to the M3 perf ticking the EV box for many who would have stretched to the S, and also the fanboy sales are starting to tail off for a new S. The Y will cannibalise that even more.

As it is, the S will be at least 10 years before we see a replacement or mk2 on the road. Nonsense

ELM327 · 28-04-2020 9:22am

sk8board wrote: »

All manufacturers do those midlife changes to run out all their remaining production runs before retooling a factory. the model S is now 8 year old and the exterior is starting to age, yet it’s still €95-€100k with some basic options.
I think the model Y LR or Perf will kill the S. why pay €20k more for a 8-10 year old model?

re the Taycan -
in reality a taycan 4S is a 911 carerra S without the running costs and €40k in the glovebox.

Some good reviews Matt Farahs channel this week - as a petrolhead he fawned over it.

Nothing is better than it still. Why change it?
The Y will do nothing to the S, the Y is a small X not S.
It's not 8-10 years old. I have a '16 facelift MS and it shares very little beyond exterior appearance with the new model.

The taycan is not as fast as the S and doesnt have the same range or charging options, and its 50k+ more expensive. It's a ludicrous option if you pardon the pun.

Anyone looking at a new S is not going to be deterred by a Y/3.
The S is still much faster than the Y/3, by over a second in the 0-60

unkel wrote: »

That's like saying a BMW 330i will kill the BMW 750i

+1

ELM327 · 28-04-2020 9:25am

sk8board wrote: »

It’s like saying BMW are no longer updating the 7 series when the old one is just fine and the 3 series is new and has similar range.

The person spending €95k on an S isn’t shopping it against ICE cars in that specific price - they’re buying it primarily because they want a Tesla and that was the price to play.

the sales of S and X are now dropping off a cliff due to the M3 perf ticking the EV box for many who would have stretched to the S, and also the fanboy sales are starting to tail off for a new S. The Y will cannibalise that even more.

As it is, the S will be at least 10 years before we see a replacement or mk2 on the road. Nonsense

I bought my S for ~50k all in. Not 90 but still, it's a good comment on your analogy.

The competitors for me were a BMW 760li, a bentley continental or something like this. Less expensive than the S but have higher running costs. I like premium cars and would compromise for an S/X as I like Tesla but the 3/Y are not premium cars. Same as a 120d bmw is not a 760li

unkel · 28-04-2020 9:45am

sk8board wrote: »

It’s like saying BMW are no longer updating the 7 series when the old one is just fine and the 3 series is new and has similar range.

Indeed

I don't think we fundamentally disagree here, sk8board. The Model S is an aging car, but still excellent. And numerous people who really wanted a Tesla for a long time, can now get a brand new one (Model 3) with the latest tech and a long warranty for not much more than an aging early S

And to go back to the earlier analogy, BMW only really started selling lots of cars (and making lots of profits) after they launched the first 3-series in the 70s

Tesla Model S

Comments