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RIP Martin McGuinness

thee glitz

Former Deputy First Minister of NI Martin McGuinness has died. May he RIP.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0321/861287-martin-mcguinness-death/

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Thomas__

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Sinn Fein are really on a roll right now.

Recent elections North and South
United Ireland
Martin McGuinness death

I am still waiting for Gerry Adams to announce his resignation from being President of SF. It´s already like waiting for Godot, but one day it´ll come.

flutered

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

its gonna be hard on this thread, so it is surly an all hands on deck from this afternoon onwards

flutered

bubblypop wrote: »

You should go down to the special criminal court, there's people in there every day if the week stating stuff like this.

how come we do not have our media telling us that,
given the times that were there it took some guts to do that, but then the hatred against the provos in the south was confined to bth fg and lab

flutered

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, they didn't need to deny they were SAS, that was a story made up by the men that stripped, tortured, beat, shot and stabbed them.

They were not in uniform (because it was kind of unsafe driving around in an army uniform) and were armed because they were soldiers. They weren't even supposed to be there, they had only recently arrived in the north and got lost. They were told to avoid the area.

trained soldiers who did not know which direction they went, even girl guides are able to figure that out

Jelle1880

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The same man that subsequently went on to be a prominent cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq.

Because he (like many others) believe that simply removing Saddam would be sufficient. He underestimated the deep sectarian divide in Iraq (and the complete mess the US and it's allies would make of the war).

Why that somehow disqualifies his opinion on Adams and Paisley, I don't know. But I guess Iraq must be an easy argument to ignore his other points.

flutered

Snickers Man wrote: »

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

the same guy who told the unemployed to, get on you bikes, it says a lot really

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

It certainly takes efforts to counter your point of view. Everything concerning NI and the Troubles is just then cristal clear when one takes one side of the narrative and follows it unquestioned. It´s always been a complicated matter, full of one-sided narratives, full of lies, twists and turns and every side blamed the other for it, but in fact, they were all to blame for what happened, the Shinners, the Provos, the Unionists, the Loyalists and last but not least the British Security Forces along with the RUC. In my view, those three decades of the Troubles in NI were the most worst display of a civil war which barely one could have escaped without living in danger to get killed one way or another, depending on where one lived and those in towns and cities were left in much more of a danger than those living in rural areas, not so close to the border.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

Self praise is no praise

Arcade_Tryer

Sinn Fein are really on a roll right now.

Recent elections North and South
United Ireland
Martin McGuinness death

[Deleted User]

Snickers Man wrote: »

It was horrendous. And brutal. But you have to remember the context. The day (or two) before, a republican funeral had been attacked by a Loyalist named Michael Stone who fired shots and threw grenades at mourners in a graveyard, killing a few of them.

Unsurprisingly, people were somewhat on edge at the next set of Republican funerals. Then they come across a car parked with two strange men sitting inside as the cortege approaches. Stewards demand to know what is going on.

The car tries to extricate itself from the situation. It gets blocked in by taxis. People approach it. The passenger pulls out a gun. Everybody scatters. Then the braver among them rush the car again. One guy, clearly identifiable by his red hair as one "Cleeky" Clarke jumps on to the roof and starts bashing the window with a tyre iron. The men are dragged out of the car, taken away, identified as soldiers, stripped and shot dead.

Horrendous.

They were probably NOT SAS however. As they were signallers, the informed speculation is that they were there to attempt to bug the crowd to pick up conversations for intelligence purposes. There was a helicopter overhead (as always in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) but the technology of the time would not enable sound recording from such a distance. So it appears likely the two guys were sent in undercover with sophisticated equipment to bug the mourners.

The notion that two guys on RnR were driving through West Belfast in the vicinity of the Falls Road on that weekend of all times is just farcical. Not even the Brits are that stupid.

Incidentally, the same Cleeky Clarke who was filmed bashing in the windows and was later convicted for his role in the killings had previously during the Michael Stone incident in Milltown cemetry risked considerable injury by rescuing a journalist who had come under suspicion of being involved in the shootings by the hysterical crowd. The journalist had been running away to find a payphone (mere local reporters didn't have mobile phones in those days) to file a report and the crowd thought he was one of the attackers. They jumped on him and were in the process of trying to kick him to death when Clarke, who recognised him, dived in on top of him and shielded him while screaming at the crowd to leave him alone.

There's footage of it somewhere.

Oh and I am no Sinn Fein supporter. Nor was I ever. But remember the context of the times.

Oh i remember alright, i grew up very close to the border from the early 80s,
I remember watching the Michael Stone incident also.
I just found the extreme violence of this particular incident had the biggest impact on me.
I couldn't watch it without feeling physically sick, and i am far from soft!
Anyway, kinda off topic.....

Lady Spangles

Snickers Man wrote: »

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

Although I completely understand Tebbit's anger, the BBC seem to be repeating his sentiments ad nauseum. Colin Parry, on the other hand, whose young son was killed by the IRA seems to be showing a lot more grace at least.

R P McMurphy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It seems to be a common tactic.

Mention the atrocities that were done under his command and you're bound to get a response about the Brits. Because that somehow makes it ok I guess ?

I think Hitchens summed it up perfectly about Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams, and it probably works for McGuinness too:

The same man that subsequently went on to be a prominent cheerleader for the invasion of Iraq.

nacho libre

retalivity wrote: »

Rip mairtin, worked hard for peace in his later years and for derry all his life

Now watch the DUP make a complete mess of being respectful in his passing.

I thought Arlene and Ian were respectful with their comments

davycc

Genuinely in shock here,

A former freedom fighter turned peacemaker supreme.

Rip martin.

Snickers Man

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't think it matters really does it?
The video of this attack remains one of the most horrific i have ever seen. I don't believe anyone could watch it without being seriously emotionally disturbed.

It was horrendous. And brutal. But you have to remember the context. The day (or two) before, a republican funeral had been attacked by a Loyalist named Michael Stone who fired shots and threw grenades at mourners in a graveyard, killing a few of them.

Unsurprisingly, people were somewhat on edge at the next set of Republican funerals. Then they come across a car parked with two strange men sitting inside as the cortege approaches. Stewards demand to know what is going on.

The car tries to extricate itself from the situation. It gets blocked in by taxis. People approach it. The passenger pulls out a gun. Everybody scatters. Then the braver among them rush the car again. One guy, clearly identifiable by his red hair as one "Cleeky" Clarke jumps on to the roof and starts bashing the window with a tyre iron. The men are dragged out of the car, taken away, identified as soldiers, stripped and shot dead.

Horrendous.

They were probably NOT SAS however. As they were signallers, the informed speculation is that they were there to attempt to bug the crowd to pick up conversations for intelligence purposes. There was a helicopter overhead (as always in Northern Ireland during the Troubles) but the technology of the time would not enable sound recording from such a distance. So it appears likely the two guys were sent in undercover with sophisticated equipment to bug the mourners.

The notion that two guys on RnR were driving through West Belfast in the vicinity of the Falls Road on that weekend of all times is just farcical. Not even the Brits are that stupid.

Incidentally, the same Cleeky Clarke who was filmed bashing in the windows and was later convicted for his role in the killings had previously during the Michael Stone incident in Milltown cemetry risked considerable injury by rescuing a journalist who had come under suspicion of being involved in the shootings by the hysterical crowd. The journalist had been running away to find a payphone (mere local reporters didn't have mobile phones in those days) to file a report and the crowd thought he was one of the attackers. They jumped on him and were in the process of trying to kick him to death when Clarke, who recognised him, dived in on top of him and shielded him while screaming at the crowd to leave him alone.

There's footage of it somewhere.

Oh and I am no Sinn Fein supporter. Nor was I ever. But remember the context of the times.

FrancieBrady

I see the deflectors are hard at work.

jackhammer

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, they didn't need to deny they were SAS, that was a story made up by the men that stripped, tortured, beat, shot and stabbed them.

They were not in uniform (because it was kind of unsafe driving around in an army uniform) and were armed because they were soldiers. They weren't even supposed to be there, they had only recently arrived in the north and got lost. They were told to avoid the area.

Not condoning in any way that horrible event, but I think it quite likely that both those men were members of FRU or "the Det", both units having an even more chequered history in the north than the SAS.

In short, I can only make a guess as to what they were, as can you. But I would never, unquestionably, believe any side's version of any event in Northern Ireland.

Alf Stewart.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, they didn't need to deny they were SAS, that was a story made up by the men that stripped, tortured, beat, shot and stabbed them.

They were not in uniform (because it was kind of unsafe driving around in an army uniform) and were armed because they were soldiers. They weren't even supposed to be there, they had only recently arrived in the north and got lost. They were told to avoid the area.

SAS/Regular British Army, makes not a not to the legitimacy of their killings (in the eyes of the Provos)

You're saying it was incompetence led to their killings?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's enormously admirable integrity right there. I'd trust somebody with such conviction, courage and honesty.

You should go down to the special criminal court, there's people in there every day if the week stating stuff like this.

Fratton Fred

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

The British Army denied that they were SAS.

That said, the official line trotted out didn't make them any less legitimate targets to the provos regardless.

Undercover British soldiers, armed at a provisional IRA funeral?

They just happened to accidentally stray into the funeral?

Yeah right.

no, they didn't need to deny they were SAS, that was a story made up by the men that stripped, tortured, beat, shot and stabbed them.

They were not in uniform (because it was kind of unsafe driving around in an army uniform) and were armed because they were soldiers. They weren't even supposed to be there, they had only recently arrived in the north and got lost. They were told to avoid the area.

Snickers Man

FTA69 wrote: »

Norman Tebitt was on Twitter whinging about him. I imagine you'll have a few in the British gutter Press as well up to the same.

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

nelly17

John Major was Just on BBC news - a very interesting take on him prior to his Road to Damascus transition - but that said he could not have accomplished all that he did without having first gained respect within Armed Republiicinisim.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

Very few unionists have come out with a statement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-39184255

Alf Stewart.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

telling someone to get it straight, usually involves you being correct.

They were not SAS, they were Royal Corp of Signals

The British Army denied that they were SAS.

That said, the official line trotted out didn't make them any less legitimate targets to the provos regardless.

Undercover British soldiers, armed at a provisional IRA funeral?

They just happened to accidentally stray into the funeral?

Yeah right.

steddyeddy

Zebra3 wrote: »

Following the death of Martin McGuinness, I'd like to hear from the white supremacists of the British Establishment.

:rolleyes:

Very few unionists have come out with a statement.

[Deleted User]

In 1973, he was convicted by the Republic of Ireland's Special Criminal Court, after being arrested near a car containing 250 pounds (110 kg) of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. He refused to recognise the court, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment. In court, he declared his membership of the Provisional IRA without equivocation: "We have fought against the killing of our people... I am a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and very, very proud of it".

There's enormously admirable integrity right there. I'd trust somebody with such conviction, courage and honesty.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote: »

Following the death of Martin McGuinness, I'd like to hear from the white supremacists of the British Establishment.

:rolleyes:

say what?

Jelle1880

Zebra3 wrote: »

Following the death of Martin McGuinness, I'd like to hear from the white supremacists of the British Establishment.

:rolleyes:

Who exactly are they ?

Zebra3

Following the death of Martin McGuinness, I'd like to hear from the white supremacists of the British Establishment.

:rolleyes:

Lady Spangles

Very sad news, actually. The IRA ceasefire would never have held without all his hard work and, we all know, SF were sorely tested at times. He took huge risks for peace and took some steps that must have been extremely difficult (meeting Queen Elizabeth to name but one).

I don't care if I'm totally out of step with the rest of my home nation (England) on this (seeing as that's already been brought up here). They only saw one side of the conflict which was bombs going off on their streets. They didn't see the peace process transform Northern Ireland the way I did. McGuinness made a huge contribution to that.

RIP to the man and condolences to his family. Very sad news.