US may attack North Korea first

hungry hypno toad

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

They didn't refuse to give them up, they asked for some evidence from the United States before they handed them over.

And if the CIA didn't help train & arm them in the 1980's & hail them as freedom fighters fighting for liberty & democracy against "communist aggression" they wouldn't have had this problem to contend with.

Th videos claiming responsibility weren't sufficient evidence I guess. Pull the other one. Afghanistan should have been nuked.

BalcombeSt4

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I think the issue they forget is once that Emperor is found to be not wearing any clothes and to be a complete fraud that ha been keeping his people in dire poverty for decades, they'll turn on him.

All they really need to do is break the spell, not invade..

I agree with that, military action against North Korea will just push the NK population into the arms of the NK government, if the US really wants to help the people of North Korea they'd start by telling facts and the dropping the propaganda. And if they really had to take some sort of military action they'd support and fund a guerrilla movement of N.Koreans opposed to the dictatorship.

BalcombeSt4

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

Th videos claiming responsibility weren't sufficient evidence I guess. Pull the other one. Afghanistan should have been nuked.

For a start these videos of Bin Landen came out after the invasion began, none of the hijackers were from Afghanistan, and asking for some concreate evidence happens to be a very reasonable request. If a country approached the United States and said “hand over so and so, because we think he’s a criminal” and they didn’t provide any evidence, nobody would even bother laughing. Well, this Taliban request is considered ridiculous, it just shows how awful they are: “look they’re asking for evidence, they’re not allowed to do that, we say we want him, hand him over.” Well, it happens that they’re right on this. You should provide convincing evidence, and the U.S. didn’t provided it, probably because it doesn’t have it and, besides, they just treat them with contempt when they offer to negotiate.
In 2001 Haiti requested that the United States turn over Emanuel Constant, who was not only indicted but was sentenced in absentia in Haiti for a leading role in the murder of four to five thousand people in the early 90’s, during the coup period.
U.S. administrations were supporting the military junta and the rich elite. Constant, who was the head of the murderess paramilitary forces, had close ties to the U.S., to the CIA, and others, and that’s why the U.S. didn't want to hand him over, they don't want their dirty laundry aired in public. But here was a man who was a leading figure in the killing of four to five thousand people in a country right next door to the US they’ve had the evidence, they’ve brought him to trial, in fact, convicted him, and now they want him handed over. Should Haiti nuke the US for not handing him over?
And there plenty of other examples in Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Chile etc...


But you want to nuke a country whose people were forced to accept the brutal Taliban government thanks to the US & British support. Yea makes a lot of sense, go do one.

hungry hypno toad

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

For a start these videos of Bin Landen came out after the invasion began, none of the hijackers were from Afghanistan, and asking for some concreate evidence happens to be a very reasonable request. If a country approached the United States and said “hand over so and so, because we think he’s a criminal” and they didn’t provide any evidence, nobody would even bother laughing. Well, this Taliban request is considered ridiculous, it just shows how awful they are: “look they’re asking for evidence, they’re not allowed to do that, we say we want him, hand him over.” Well, it happens that they’re right on this. You should provide convincing evidence, and the U.S. didn’t provided it, probably because it doesn’t have it and, besides, they just treat them with contempt when they offer to negotiate.
In 2001 Haiti requested that the United States turn over Emanuel Constant, who was not only indicted but was sentenced in absentia in Haiti for a leading role in the murder of four to five thousand people in the early 90’s, during the coup period.
U.S. administrations were supporting the military junta and the rich elite. Constant, who was the head of the murderess paramilitary forces, had close ties to the U.S., to the CIA, and others, and that’s why the U.S. didn't want to hand him over, they don't want their dirty laundry aired in public. But here was a man who was a leading figure in the killing of four to five thousand people in a country right next door to the US they’ve had the evidence, they’ve brought him to trial, in fact, convicted him, and now they want him handed over. Should Haiti nuke the US for not handing him over?
And there plenty of other examples in Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Chile etc...


But you want to nuke a country whose people were forced to accept the brutal Taliban government thanks to the US & British support. Yea makes a lot of sense, go do one.

What a load of tripe. Nice to see we have an al Qaeda sympathiser on here.

BorneTobyWilde

super_furry wrote: »

I'd put money on Trump invading a country on a major scale before the next election. It's the only thing that could get him re-elected.

Ireland maybe, we are ripe for the picking .

hungry hypno toad

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Ireland maybe, we are ripe for the picking .

If it means us leaving the EU then I'm all in favour.

Gatling

Apparently allowing south Korea and Japan ti develop Nuclear weapons is on the cards now

hungry hypno toad

Gatling wrote: »

Apparently allowing south Korea and Japan ti develop Nuclear weapons is on the cards now

Sounds fair enough, NK have made a mockery of all nuclear non proliferation efforts.

cnocbui

Gatling wrote: »

Apparently allowing south Korea and Japan ti develop Nuclear weapons is on the cards now

Can't blame them. Should take about 6 months.

Same old nonsense from China - 'let's talk to them calmly'. I think it is probable that China want a nuclear armed N Korea, though I can't imagine why as it makes them irrelevant and they could be in danger themselves.

hungry hypno toad

cnocbui wrote: »

Can't blame them. Should take about 6 months.

Same old nonsense from China - 'let's talk to them calmly'. I think it is probable that China want a nuclear armed N Korea, though I can't imagine why as it makes them irrelevant and they could be in danger themselves.

Perhaps it shows that China don't have any real control over NK and are playing along to avoid losing face.

cnocbui

Yes, that seems very likely. If I were them, I would be exploring having agents, assassinate Kim loon Paranoid.

DEFTLEFTHAND

A chef working for Kim Jong Il in the 90s who later defected told an interesting story about him.

They were drinking brandy together, Il was a big drinker and liked to invite his staff to booze with him afterhours.

The chef under the influence of Hennessy asked Kim for permission to speak freely. His request was granted and he proceeded to ask Kim would NK really ever consider using any of their heavy artillery against western powers.

He answered of course not, they would wipe us out in a matter of days. The reason we have them is to prevent an unprovoked attack or outside intervention to the regime.

To create that fear factor. When you're as isolated as they are in the world this is the only card to play.

BlinkingLights

BlinkingLights wrote: »

A United Korea is no more of an economic or military threat to China than modern Japan is.

Modern Japan? The strongest and most technological advanced navy in the region? A Japan that while faces decline in birth rates has also seen massive support for improving their military, and have already lost 'face' to China over the S.China Sea and the artifical Islands... and a Japan is that allied closely with the US.

A united korea is a mjor threat to the mindset that is the communist party. A united Korea would be a powerhouse culturally, economically, and militarily. It would totally shift the 'balance' of power in the region.

Currently, there is a rash of viideos showing chinese people destroying Korean products... the same happens when Beijing wants people to be angry at Japan. They keep the anger simmering below the surface all the time. There is a lot of fear in China. They haven't won a war in centuries. And they try desparately to believe their own propaganda.

China is an economic powerhouse and has a military that could deal with anything you could throw at it.

China's economy is slowing. Fast. The presidents clearing of corruption has been shown up as a political clearing of the old presidents supporters. Actualy corruption has increased, along with severe fraud. Their own Stock exchange was over managed by the government and insider trading lost billions for ordinary people encouraged to invest by the government. Analysts have been guessing for years as to how much is in the Chinese reserves but no statistics are reliable.... however, they've been investing heavily in their own currency and have spent considerable efforts on the construction industry... You should see the Ghost cities here. It's creepy.

As for their military, Myopia affects the majority of the population. Due to changes in diet Chinese people are taller than before, and can't fit into their older equipment. They've also lowered the requirements for joining the PLA three times since I started living here. I teach a lot of university students that join up. China has a massive reserve of cannon fodder. There are definitely elite units here but China geographiclally is wide open to attack. The US would simply destroy their infrastructure and sit back until revolution occured.

I think China's just a bit stuck in a time warp when it comes to policy on North Korea.

Think for a second. How many allies does China have? And now, How many allies does the US have?

If you think about it, the biggest risk to China from DPRK is that it turns unstable and has a hot civil war that overspills with millions of refugees into Northern China, or worse still it turns into a nuclear conflict and causes immense environmental damage to the highly populated areas of Northern China.

You really shouldn't try applying western logic to Asians. They really have an incredibly different culture to us.

Imagine if Serfdom had continued in Europe until the 1950's. Chinese governments, royalty or administrations have been indoctrinating the people for (as the Chinese themselves love to say) "5000 years of Chinese civilisation".

If you believe that rebellion would occur under the party then you have absolutely no concept of how Chinese people perceive the world. Democracy once made Western nations strong, which was to be admired, but now democracy is corrupt and failing badly. Chinese people are comfortable with corruption, since it's part of their lives on a daily basis for all levels of government. It's a police state and most Chinese people accept it.

Also if the regime there keeps up with the sabre rattling to the point that it actually launches a nuclear attack on say a US base in Japan, then you'll have the US stepping directly in to deal with North Korea.

China would wipe out N.Korea first. To prevent international presence in the area, China would destroy N.Korea. Nobody will be allowed to destabilise the region unless China chooses the moment for it to happen.

The huge risk China is taking is doing nothing and hoping it will all go away. It needs to intervene.

It needs to do nothing of the sort. This is mostly posturing. N.Korea will not do anything without Chinese approval. TBH the real risk is if China is blocked in the S.China sea. If that happens, N.Korea might be let off the leash, and then smacked down in the interests of world peace.

Chinese people genuinely believe themselves and their government to be peaceful. They'll get a lost puppy dog face initially like they've done something wrong, and then the schooling will kick in, and they'll argue with you without any form of logic. It's bizarre. And very creepy.

Instability, an actual nuclear war, economic damage or the US being dragged into an armed conflict in the region are absolutely not in China's interests.

But China needs to expand. It's population is exploding, with as many as 30 million single men who have little chance of marrying a Chinese woman. The one child policy has been removed and the government is even offering monetary benefits to those who have a 2nd child.

And yet, pollution is quickly destroying its farmable land, and water sources have been poisoned. The air in many Chinese cities is incredibly bad. I'm not exaggerating. Wait until one day heading to work, you wear an army issue gas mask because the pollution is so bad.

China will need to expand, and it feels the need to prove its superiority. A weak west also encourages them, especially since the world has caved in the S.China sea so far... They've gained a lot of 'face' for that. But ultimately, they want to be a superpower, in reality rather than just in name, and that means toppling the US. China will be forced to war with Japan at some point. Historic and cultural reasons demand it. Which means war with the US. It will happen. This country is becoming very nationalistic right now.

The problem with the US going into Korea would be "what comes afterwards?" This isn't fixing Japan, who had the emperor to demand cooperation. This is a nation that has been indoctrinated, and who have accepted the current regime for 60 years. Iraq has turned out a mess. Afghanistan.. need I really say more modern theatres with western troops and failing miserably?

And trust me, we really don't want millions of N.Korean terrorists who are ideologically 'educated' and trained to turn to guerrila style warfare if the military is defeated. The plans are there. Asia is not the Middle East. Vietnam. Cambodia, Korea. Haven't we learned that Aisa is one really bad place to fight against a mobile infantry army? Which all Asian nations have developed since the US lost in vietnam.

And do you really think China would allow the buildup of forces to pursue the cleanup 'operations'?

And it wouldn't stay in Asia. It would come to Europe and the US too. No. Stay out. Let China deal with N.Korea. If China steps out of line, the world will have to face them... but lets not hurry too quickly towards that point.

force eleven

cnocbui wrote: »

Because 1,700 km is the same as 206.

Thats what I used to perceive it as, a huge distance between them, but it isn't. Pretty sure an artillery battle would destroy both cities quite quickly, never mind any nuclear equation. I really don't think it could come to either actually. Skirmishes of an occasional border and naval type could happen though. These could always potentially trigger something.

cnocbui

force eleven wrote: »

Thats what I used to perceive it as, a huge distance between them, but it isn't. Pretty sure an artillery battle would destroy both cities quite quickly, never mind any nuclear equation. I really don't think it could come to either actually. Skirmishes of an occasional border and naval type could happen though. These could always potentially trigger something.

I was completely wrong about the distance. I used a distance site and mis-read the result.

scamalert

wasnt trumps every speech crapping how US always tell how will they distroy enemy that trump bashed,now headlines US to attack nk irony.

if they would do it,they would nuke the place down,quietly,otherwise dont see how Seoul wouldnt become major dump,with economy going into same state as NK.

AMKC

If China has so many Ghost Cities why don,t they let migrants go live in them. I always thought the west and Europe should have done some deal with China to take all the migrants that don,t have anywhere to go. Am sure Lebanon and Turkey would be delighted with that and it benefit China and its economy. As instead of having cities would no body in them they would be full again and they could create jobs in them cities and in in pay taxes to the Chinese Government.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

If China has so many Ghost Cities why don,t they let migrants go live in them. I always thought the west and Europe should have done some deal with China to take all the migrants that don,t have anywhere to go. Am sure Lebanon and Turkey would be delighted with that and it benefit China and its economy. As instead of having cities would no body in them they would be full again and they could create jobs in them cities and in in pay taxes to the Chinese Government.

Because Chinese people are incredibly xenophobic, and their government has been enouraging persecution of muslims within their borders? They've just announced their own "War on Terrorism" which essentially means anyone that's muslim is a potential terrorist and no risks are to be taken.

China will never open it borders to migrants. They wouldn't want to become contaminated. 57 ethnic groups, and 56 are 'minorities'. 'Han' are the clear majority. That didn't happen naturally.

RobertKK

Japan is preparing as they fear a possible missile strike from North Korea.
CNN showing how Japanese people and school children in Japan are being trained what to do if the missile sirens go off.

BlinkingLights

The big risk of any nuclear attack or attack on a nuclear facility is long term environmental damage in a very highly populated area.

All the surrounding countries are hugely populated. The wind and rain don't conveniently stop at political borders.

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Because Chinese people are incredibly xenophobic, and their government has been enouraging persecution of muslims within their borders? They've just announced their own "War on Terrorism" which essentially means anyone that's muslim is a potential terrorist and no risks are to be taken.

China will never open it borders to migrants. They wouldn't want to become contaminated. 57 ethnic groups, and 56 are 'minorities'. 'Han' are the clear majority. That didn't happen naturally.

Awe ok I did not know that. That would not work then.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Awe ok I did not know that. That would not work then.

To be fair, I don't think that most people who have not lived extensively in Asia really understand just how different perceptions and behaviors are here. There are layers within layers. The Chinese are relatively easy to understand. Money is their God, since money provides power and influence. And Influence is next on the list. From the top official down to the old dude sweeping the streets.

China, Japan, and Korea have long histories of superiority complex's, and their cultures reflect this. Each of them have a few words in their own languages to describe foreigners as barbarians. Mandarin alone has three... and then the local dialect here adds two more. And they're not flattering references either.

The foreigners in China fall into two main categories. Students (Income for china) and foreign 'experts' (teachers, engineers. etc). And we are tolerated by the govt/police. We're a cash cow. A dancing monkey for endless fascination... a curiosity for them to sample western culture but ultimately stay "chinese" to the core..

It's an amazing country. Really it is. Just amazingly messed up too, and utterly bizarre for a western logic p.o.v.

But I seriously wouldn't want to be an illegal migrant coming into China or someone needing pernament residency... bad enough from a western country. but coming from a country the chinese hold in contempt? I wouldn't recommend China as a destination unless you want them to 'disappear'.

david75

The only 'good' thing about being a regular person on the ground in NK or Japan or China or even here if it comes to it, is you won't even get to read about nukes going off. There's something like 3/4 minutes from one country launching to another country responding. And all these hothead countries, none more so than the US, will lead that charge.
There will be no breaking news or bull**** Facebook viral stuff.
You'll be standing in your kitchen making a cup of tea. It will suddenly get intensely bright. Then fatally hot and that's all you'll know.

I'm not sure if I prefer instant evaporation or dystopian future in an irradiated Dublin or Ireland where you'd get progressively sicker quite quickly until death.

Tough call.

I'm living in Xi'an, which is very close to China's main Aeronautical and 'Space' sites. It's definitely a primary target... Admittedly, my province has a population of about 37m people, so that might make any western power hesitate.

Any President or leader that signs off on that attack will face war crimes... and the countrys reputation gone with it. Just look at Germany. Stalin killed more than Hitler, but Germans still to this day have to face the silent and not so silent judgement of other nationalities.

Dropping modern nukes on heavily populated areas (since China's military is spread throughout its whole country including the cities) would guarantee the infamy card regardless of your reasons. Hitting japan in WW2 was with first generation WMD's. We're now far beyond those in sheer destructive power. I doubt even getting nuked first would protect against the backlash after the war is ended...

Now... China wouldn't give a damn. The Chinese govt has repeatedly mentioned it would be willing to sacrifice 90% of its population if it meant achieving their aims. N.Korea won't be much different. But going to nuclear war, means giving up their glorious lifestyles... and hopefully that reins them in somewhat. Cause nothing else will.

And if London was nuked, you'll probably be suffering the radiation effects afterwards. You might grow another arm, or a head in your chest. Wouldn't that be something? With modern weaponary, I doubt there are too many places outside the area of fallout if the major western population centers were hit.

threeball

scamalert wrote: »

wasnt trumps every speech crapping how US always tell how will they distroy enemy that trump bashed,now headlines US to attack nk irony.

if they would do it,they would nuke the place down,quietly,otherwise dont see how Seoul wouldnt become major dump,with economy going into same state as NK.

How do you nuke somewhere and not affect the allies 200km up the road or piss off the nuclear power next door or even spook them so bad they retaliate in the mistaken belief they are being targeted.
There'll be no ninja nuking of Nk by anyone. In fact there'll be no nuking full stop unless NK launch a strike first.

CiDeRmAn

It'll be more likely that the NK military will, with combined Chinese/American support, launch a coup and the current leadership will fall, after being shot, then fed to the dogs.
Then, over a period of the following decade, reunification with massive international investment in NK, possibly a land grab by China though.

threeball

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

It'll be more likely that the NK military will, with combined Chinese/American support, launch a coup and the current leadership will fall, after being shot, then fed to the dogs.
Then, over a period of the following decade, reunification with massive international investment in NK, possibly a land grab by China though.

China will not support any measure that leads to a more populous, more powerful Korea. South Korea are an international economic powerhouse as it stands. With even cheaper labour available from their northern cousins in the event of unification they'd be a very significant player on the global stage challenging chinas position in the region due to their closeness to the west.

Cabaal

Canis Lupus wrote: »

What will they fight back with precisely?

Man power,
Plane and simple the USA can't beat it, they'll never win against a national of zealots following their great leader

Beasty

Cabaal wrote: »

Plane and simple the USA can't beat it, they'll never win against a national of zealots following their great leader

What if there was a civil war?


(in the USA:pac:)