Is the EU actually about to break up?

bmm

EU should revert to being EEC . The rest is a mess !

solodeogloria

nhunter100 wrote: »

Actually I'm quite serious, I have heard the vindictive ness in Juncker after the vote nothing got to do with defending the principles on which the EEC was founded upon. Sounded more like a schoolyard bully tbh.

Good evening!

Indeed! From the EU perspective - it is honestly better for them if Britain leaves. They were at best an uncooperative member. The ever closer vision of the EU was going to fall out of favour in one country sooner rather than later.

The EU desperately needs reform. Less integration rather than more integration. It is going to fall apart otherwise. Truth be told that is something I don't want to see happen. However the EU needs to start responding to concerns in member states and reform to be a leaner more agile union otherwise people like Geert Wilders will get a hearing all over Europe and the EU will disintegrate.

Debt forgiveness for Greece really should be the start. Why should German and French banks get off the hook for dodgy loans?

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Yurt123

Anyone else think that Theresa May is going to land the UK with either no trade deal with the EU or one so bad that the parliament or MP's (I forget which one gets to vote on it) have no choice but to reject it… thus leaving the UK staring 2 prospects, stay in the EU or leave out of spite and face economic ruin? I think she's bluffing and doesn't want to leave at all… I saw Theresa May on Sky News threatening to drop corporation tax if a trade war breaks out with the EU but the problem with that is (A) they're not going to be able to do without all that less tax revenue and (B) I believe that a lot of companies will end up leaving the UK if they leave the EU

BlinkingLights

The British, more so the Tories, have got a problem with "the stiff upper lip".

Once they've started on a course they'll keep going no matter how unpleasant the consequences might be.

Needs must! Keep Calm and Carry On...

nhunter100

I have heard the vindictiveness in Juncker's voice. I have made no mention of the British media either print or otherwise.

Firefox11

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I agree. Even if Le Pen comes to power that doesn't mean the French will exit immediately.
The immediate effects of Brexit, if it happens on schedule, will galvanize the rest to make it work.
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and all that.

Well from what we have seen happen in the UK and the USA lots of Turkeys actually do vote for christmas which kinda worries me!

swampgas

nhunter100 wrote: »

I have heard the vindictiveness in Juncker's voice. I have made no mention of the British media either print or otherwise.

Given the constant stream of xenophobic abuse from the British press for years, Cameron's abuse of the veto, Farages reprehensible tirades as an MEP, among many other things, I find it unsurprising that Juncker might have been somewhat cheesed off. Really, the UK should grow a thicker skin. People in glasshouses and all that.

BlinkingLights

The assumption in England though is everyone else has a press just as nasty as their tabloids.

There usually surprised to find the French don't actually have regular headlines about Les Rosbifs and so on..

Yurt123

What did we have before the EEC? Big tariffs between each European country?

Wanderer78

Yurt123 wrote: »

What did we have before the EEC? Big tariffs between each European country?

theres no point in looking back into the past, the world has moved on from the original eec but we have to realise what the eu has become and we must ask ourselves, is it truly working for us? its has become very dysfunctional and extremely undemocratic. is this what we want?

marienbad

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theres no point in looking back into the past, the world has moved on from the original eec but we have to realise what the eu has become and we must ask ourselves, is it truly working for us? its has become very dysfunctional and extremely undemocratic. is this what we want?

How is it dysfunctional and undemocratic ?

Sam Russell

Yurt123 wrote: »

What did we have before the EEC? Big tariffs between each European country?

WAR - World War II to be precise.

Following that - mass migration with roads filled with pathetic lines of people on foot carrying all they possessed moving towards safety. Also, mass starvation. This was followed by the Berlin Airlift to relieve Berlin from the Russian blockade.

The EEC was set up by the original six members to make sure these horrors never happened in Europe again. Britain refused to join at the time. When they belatedly tried to join, DeGaul said 'Non'.

Go study some European history.

demfad

Yurt123 wrote: »

I know it's been long talked about and I always dismissed it as being nonesene but for those of you willing to give a balance and non sensationalist view upon the situation do ye think this is really it for the EU?

Like it or not Britain has voted to leave, I have my doubts that they actually will

If the far right candidate gets elected in France it looks like she'll want out of the EU and I'm just after reading that the Italians are sick of the single currency and the EU as a whole and apparently a lot of them want out

Is this really it for the EU or is it a storm in a tea cup?

I presume the Western European countries would draw up free trade agreements fairly lively with eachother if the EU were to break up so things might sort themselves out kinda quick at least

If France, the U.K. and Italy all left could we get on fine in a EU without them?

LePen will get 26% of first vote in semi final and final. Russia and Wikileaks are trying to throw dirt at Macron to get their candidate Lepan elected. Russia like to get Europe worried about the EU breakup. Don't humour them

Yurt123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theres no point in looking back into the past, the world has moved on from the original eec but we have to realise what the eu has become and we must ask ourselves, is it truly working for us? its has become very dysfunctional and extremely undemocratic. is this what we want?

How much faith can be placed in democracy? You'd think that history would have thought us to not elect someone like Trump into power but he still got voted as president of America, the Brexit vote was just an antiestablishment gesture gone wrong… like I said earlier many countries have landed themselves in massive pools of debt due to successive governments essentially buying votes by throwing money at the voters through unsustainable spending

I think the EU should stop giving out so much money to farmer, I don't know any exact figures but I think they give out billions of euros each years to farmers which is mind boggling, the money would be put to far better use being spent on tbings like development of renewable energy sources

Inquitus

If the EU breaks up, does anyone honestly think it will be anything but the ruination of our Island? We are a rock in the Atlantic with no natural resources of note, likely the greatest beneficiaries of EU membership that has ever been. And please don't cite fish or limited natural gas resources. If the EU implodes our standard of living which is one of the highest in the world will be decimated.

Yurt123

Sam Russell wrote: »

WAR - World War II to be precise.

Following that - mass migration with roads filled with pathetic lines of people on foot carrying all they possessed moving towards safety. Also, mass starvation. This was followed by the Berlin Airlift to relieve Berlin from the Russian blockade.

The EEC was set up by the original six members to make sure these horrors never happened in Europe again. Britain refused to join at the time. When they belatedly tried to join, DeGaul said 'Non'.

Go study some European history.

Wasn't it originally called the European steel community and was all about strictly the trading of steel between European countries…? What I just meant was that before the EEC (or whatever it was originally called) came along was there much in the way of barriers to trade between European countries? The European steel community was founded a decade or so after WW2

Wanderer78

marienbad wrote: »

How is it dysfunctional and undemocratic ?

the current center of power in the eu is our highly dysfunctional financial institutions, in which are effectively bullying countries in taking on the debts of failed European banks, mainly french and German banks. this model is failing us badly and has the potential to collapse the eu which could lead to catastrophic economic problems for us all. sadly our political leaders are more or less lost and are not listening to reason. we probably dont have long to try save the union but unfortunately is doesnt look like our governments will change much until the next serious financial crisis, which may not be too far away. only time will tell i guess, but it is disturbing to watch

Yurt123

Inquitus wrote: »

If the EU breaks up, does anyone honestly think it will be anything but the ruination of our Island? We are a rock in the Atlantic with no natural resources of note, likely the greatest beneficiaries of EU membership that has ever been. And please don't cite fish or limited natural gas resources. If the EU implodes our standard of living which is one of the highest in the world will be decimated.

How bad do you think things could get? Our only natural resource (well arguably it's a resource) is farming and it's going straight down the gutter if the EU breaks up, it's totally subsided by the EU

johnp001

marienbad wrote: »

How is it dysfunctional and undemocratic ?

Mary Ellen Synon gave matt cooper a great interview this evening on that very subject.


The Last Word

Sam Russell

Yurt123 wrote: »

Wasn't it originally called the European steel community and was all about strictly the trading of steel between European countries…? What I just meant was that before the EEC (or whatever it was originally called) came along was there much in the way of barriers to trade between European countries? The European steel community was founded a decade or so after WW2

European Coal and Steel Community was founded in 1951, six years after the end of WW II. The treaty of Rome in 1958 founded the EEC, which incorporated the ECSC, along with Euratom. The main goal was to prevent war in Europe, and prevent starvation occurring in Europe ever again. That was the thinking behind the Common Agricultural Policy.

There was chaos in those six years as Governments were started from scratch. All was in disarray, requiring outside help including American funded Marshal Aid. Most European countries were devastated by bombing and destruction of assets, as well as being having no financial reserves. Food was in short supply.

To answer your question re trade before the EEC, I think it was carried out within the Marshal Aid Umbrella.

Wanderer78

Yurt123 wrote: »

How much faith can be placed in democracy? You'd think that history would have thought us to not elect someone like Trump into power but he still got voted as president of America, the Brexit vote was just an antiestablishment gesture gone wrong… like I said earlier many countries have landed themselves in massive pools of debt due to successive governments essentially buying votes by throwing money at the voters through unsustainable spending

I think the EU should stop giving out so much money to farmer, I don't know any exact figures but I think they give out billions of euros each years to farmers which is mind boggling, the money would be put to far better use being spent on tbings like development of renewable energy sources

we have to realise what we have isnt exactly democracy, but its operating under the guise of it. noam chomsky calls it plutocracy, michael hudson calls it kleptocracy and yanis varoufakis calls it bankrotocracy. all three men are actually correct, and theres nothing democratic about that.

you are correct though, at the center of all this is 'debt', and its completely out of control. i can understand michael hudsons use of the term 'debt peonage', as this is exactly how its been used, i.e. a form of slavery.

both trump and brexit were anti-establishment votes, but they were the nuclear option. the lesson for us is to make sure not to take the nuclear option, but thankfully wont dont have much extremism in our politics, but strange things do happen in politics.

completely agree with the renewable energies thing but sadly the powers to be have too much vested interests in fossil fuels at the moment, so it ll take a while for us to truly move onto green energies.

minktrapper

Yurt123 wrote: »

How much faith can be placed in democracy? You'd think that history would have thought us to not elect someone like Trump into power but he still got voted as president of America, the Brexit vote was just an antiestablishment gesture gone wrong… like I said earlier many countries have landed themselves in massive pools of debt due to successive governments essentially buying votes by throwing money at the voters through unsustainable spending

I think the EU should stop giving out so much money to farmer, I don't know any exact figures but I think they give out billions of euros each years to farmers which is mind boggling, the money would be put to far better use being spent on tbings like development of renewable energy sources

The E.U. gives money to food production not food producer. Cheap food policy.

minktrapper

Yurt123 wrote: »

How bad do you think things could get? Our only natural resource (well arguably it's a resource) is farming and it's going straight down the gutter if the EU breaks up, it's totally subsided by the EU

Farming is not subsidised by the E.U. food production is. And you are eating it. It is you that is being subsidised.

johnp001

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we have to realise what we have isnt exactly democracy, but its operating under the guise of it. noam chomsky calls it plutocracy, michael hudson calls it kleptocracy and yanis varoufakis calls it bankrotocracy. all three men are actually correct, and theres nothing democratic about that.

you are correct though, at the center of all this is 'debt', and its completely out of control. i can understand michael hudsons use of the term 'debt peonage', as this is exactly how its been used, i.e. a form of slavery.

both trump and brexit were anti-establishment votes, but they were the nuclear option. the lesson for us is to make sure not to take the nuclear option, but thankfully wont dont have much extremism in our politics, but strange things do happen in politics.

completely agree with the renewable energies thing but sadly the powers to be have too much vested interests in fossil fuels at the moment, so it ll take a while for us to truly move onto green energies.

Friedrich Hayek called it "The Road to Serfdom" back in the 1940s in his book where he equates socialism and fascism through their common attributes of enforcing state power over individual liberty and a centrally planned economy.

realitykeeper

Yurt123 wrote: »

I know it's been long talked about and I always dismissed it as being nonesene but for those of you willing to give a balance and non sensationalist view upon the situation do ye think this is really it for the EU?

Like it or not Britain has voted to leave, I have my doubts that they actually will

If the far right candidate gets elected in France it looks like she'll want out of the EU and I'm just after reading that the Italians are sick of the single currency and the EU as a whole and apparently a lot of them want out

Is this really it for the EU or is it a storm in a tea cup?

I presume the Western European countries would draw up free trade agreements fairly lively with eachother if the EU were to break up so things might sort themselves out kinda quick at least

If France, the U.K. and Italy all left could we get on fine in a EU without them?

Isn`t there something in the book of Revelations about 10 kings that have yet to receive a kingdom? The EU may well break up into 10 parts with some countries e.g. the Benelux nations staying together. This of course means the Brits will rule us again, because thanks to the excesses of Bertie Ahern and the shortsightedness of Enda Kenny, Ireland has failed to manage its affairs in a way that would enable it to remain independent when the coming economic crisis hits.

If this happens, the heroes of 1916 will have died in vain. We failed them and we failed future generations and why? Because we thought cute hoorism and anorak men were the way to go. The Irish will reap what they have sown.

eeguy

I have never heard a convincing argument from anyone about why a country should leave the EU. Not once.
People keep mentioning bankers, bondholders, sovereignty, "debts our children will pay" etc. etc, but to me it all seems like we're blaming someone for problems we've created ourselves.

I would absolutely love if we moved away from our system of parish pump politics, giving in to the whims of the people who shout the most and promising the sun and the stars in exchange for votes, which are the real woes of this and nearly every other country in Europe.

Wanderer78

eeguy wrote: »

I have never heard a convincing argument from anyone about why a country should leave the EU. Not once.
People keep mentioning bankers, bondholders, sovereignty, "debts our children will pay" etc. etc, but to me it all seems like we're blaming someone for problems we've created ourselves.

I would absolutely love if we moved away from our system of parish pump politics, giving in to the whims of the people who shout the most and promising the sun and the stars in exchange for votes, which are the real woes of this and nearly every other country in Europe.

our financial systems are out of control, our debt based monetary systems is failing, our economies are becoming stagnant under the ever increasing levels of private debt. yes we ve created these systems, so its up to us to change it, but we dont seem to be doing that right now. we havent accepted that this is the case yet but i suspect this will become more apparent during the next financial crisis. time will tell i guess.

id have to agree with fintan o'toole on parish pump politics, i.e. this is largely due to our centralised political system. increasing the power of our local councils might just solve this.

johnp001

eeguy wrote: »

I have never heard a convincing argument from anyone about why a country should leave the EU. Not once.
People keep mentioning bankers, bondholders, sovereignty, "debts our children will pay" etc. etc, but to me it all seems like we're blaming someone for problems we've created ourselves.

I would absolutely love if we moved away from our system of parish pump politics, giving in to the whims of the people who shout the most and promising the sun and the stars in exchange for votes, which are the real woes of this and nearly every other country in Europe.

One argument that i would consider to be convincing would be to compare how Iceland fared after defaulting on its debt as opposed to Greece which took the alternative route of taking on more debt (at the behest of other EU nations whose banks would have suffered in the event of a default)

Sand

Of course the EU is not about to break up outside of the wet dreams of Nigel Farage.

Commotion Ocean

I certainly hope not. If the EU breaks up, men will be charged more for car insurance again. The EU regulation is the only thing stopping men from being charged more. Other countries in Europe insure the car rather than the person.

jimmycrackcorm

johnnyskeleton wrote:

I dont agree. Opinion polls suggest that national soverignty rather than immigration control were key factors in the vote:

I'd be willing to bet that very few British could qualify exactly what sovereignty they had an issue with other than immigration.

There were blatant lies on the monetary front, particularly the NHS funding which is not on the same scale as being in the Euro. There may have been grumbling about jobs which had to do with globalization, and which they're about to discover in years to come will become worse.

It's been immigration through and through.

Yurt123

if anyone is wondering where the EU's funding goes look at the money it showers these Cork farmers with… by all means best of luck to the people on this list but it's all a bit ridiculous, to put things in perspective there's thousands of farmers in Ireland getting this EU money


GREENHILLS WINDFARM LIMITED COBH 252,181.33

TERENCE COUGHLAN LTD FERMOY 232,633.92

JAMES MOLONEY FERMOY 220,230.10

REPS OF JOHN DESMOND EAST CORK 182,567.68

TIM SHEAHAN KANTURK - MALLOW 178,598.42

CONOR CRONIN KANTURK - MALLOW 171,747.11

JERRY HEALY BLARNEY - MACROOM 162,195.54

CURRAGHDERMOT FARMS LIMITED FERMOY 159,615.92

WILLIAM COLEMAN KANTURK - MALLOW 155,912.36

ML&SILE MURPHY LAKELODGE LTD COBH 153,350.77

DENIS HOWARD KANTURK - MALLOW 149,284.91

CROWLEY FARMS LIMITED KANTURK - MALLOW 147,441.35

SEMINOLE OIL BLARNEY - MACROOM 144,275.72

eeguy

Yurt123 wrote: »

if anyone is wondering where the EU's funding goes look at the money it showers these Cork farmers with… by all means best of luck to the people on this list but it's all a bit ridiculous, to put things in perspective there's thousands of farmers in Ireland getting this EU money
2

Yep, and now you know why you can buy a whole chicken for a fiver.

iguana

Yurt123 wrote: »

GREENHILLS WINDFARM LIMITED COBH

Is that an actual farm? Wind farms are usually a group of wind turbines producing renewable energy. And there is one in Cobh afaik.

BlinkingLights

johnp001 wrote: »

One argument that i would consider to be convincing would be to compare how Iceland fared after defaulting on its debt as opposed to Greece which took the alternative route of taking on more debt (at the behest of other EU nations whose banks would have suffered in the event of a default)

Iceland got away with that though by being tiny. It's barely more than half the population of County Cork.

Greece is roughly 11 million, 33 times bigger.

Iceland's default wasn't going to upset that many people that badly, Greece would.

Also the Icelandic underling economy is very good. Tiny population sitting on free electricity and heat and other mineral resources etc etc
It's more that it had a banking and property mess like Ireland and both have actually recovered very well.

Iceland's currency took an hammering though and that was felt very badly up there. Also emigration was huge but, the population is so tiny that you'd barely notice them even if they all had moved.

Iceland is a very unusual economy.

Yurt123

iguana wrote: »

Is that an actual farm? Wind farms are usually a group of wind turbines producing renewable energy. And there is one in Cobh afaik.

I presume what happened was that a farmer built the turbines out of his own pocket and is selling the electricity to the grid, I could be wrong though but that's probably it. I've no problem with EU money being spent on renewable energy, it's something that I'm fully behind tbh but the other figures on the list are a bit worrying

eeguy

Yurt123 wrote: »

I presume what happened was that a farmer built the turbines out of his own pocket and is selling the electricity to the grid, I could be wrong though but that's probably it. I've no problem with EU money being spent on renewable energy, it's something that I'm fully behind tbh but the other figures on the list are a bit worrying

Why worrying?

Farmers up and down the country struggle to break even, grants and all.

People talk about farmers being millionaires, but that money is tied up in land, buildings and machines. It's not sitting in their account, and if they sell then they and their children are out of a livelihood.

You can have a house worth a million quid and struggle to put food on the table.

Yurt123

eeguy wrote: »

Why worrying?

Farmers up and down the country struggle to break even, grants and all.

People talk about farmers being millionaires, but that money is tied up in land, buildings and machines. It's not sitting in their account, and if they sell then they and their children are out of a livelihood.

You can have a house worth a million quid and struggle to put food on the table.

Most of the farmers grants goes towards beef and tillage farming though, both of which are proving to be unsustainable enterprises even with these massive EU grants… a big tillage farmer here could have 500 acres of land, over in places like America and Eastern Europe you could have 2,000 acres just in one field and the sun shines all summer long and there's massive crop yields so it's not like people here can expect to compete with that… then there's the beef farmers, I'm not sure about the rest of the EU but Ireland allows meat from Brazil to be imported in here even though it's got zero traceability and they're allowed to belt away over there and do whatever they want and then sell their cheap meat here… not much can be done to fix these problems but showering farmers with in very many cases hundreds of thousands of euros in EU grants each year doesn't work either evidently

NIMAN

eeguy wrote: »

Why worrying?

Farmers up and down the country struggle to break even, grants and all.

People talk about farmers being millionaires, but that money is tied up in land, buildings and machines. It's not sitting in their account, and if they sell then they and their children are out of a livelihood.

You can have a house worth a million quid and struggle to put food on the table.

There was plenty of them sold off land during the boom when they were being offered crazy money for sites.

johnp001

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Iceland got away with that though by being tiny. It's barely more than half the population of County Cork.

Greece is roughly 11 million, 33 times bigger.

Iceland's default wasn't going to upset that many people that badly, Greece would.

Also the Icelandic underling economy is very good. Tiny population sitting on free electricity and heat and other mineral resources etc etc
It's more that it had a banking and property mess like Ireland and both have actually recovered very well.

Iceland's currency took an hammering though and that was felt very badly up there. Also emigration was huge but, the population is so tiny that you'd barely notice them even if they all had moved.

Iceland is a very unusual economy.

No argument there! Iceland is certainly a different country than Greece in many ways.
The question I have is whether the "solution" to Greece's insurmountable debt problem, which was to takebon yet more debt, is in any way feasible.
The IMF has rules that prevent it from lending into nations that are not going to realistically be able to repay. These rules were disregarded in Greece (and also Ukraine) for political motives.

KingBrian2

johnp001 wrote: »

No argument there! Iceland is certainly a different country than Greece in many ways.
The question I have is whether the "solution" to Greece's insurmountable debt problem, which was to takebon yet more debt, is in any way feasible.
The IMF has rules that prevent it from lending into nations that are not going to realistically be able to repay. These rules were disregarded in Greece (and also Ukraine) for political motives.

Politics trumps economics all the time and investigations into unlawfully activity often get shelved in order to curry favour with voters.

eeguy

NIMAN wrote: »

There was plenty of them sold off land during the boom when they were being offered crazy money for sites.

The boom was over 10 years ago. You might not have noticed, but things have changed in the meantime.

NIMAN

There's still plenty of land and sites for sale up here in the NW.

Getting back to the thread, I think a lot will depend on what happens next in France, and whether Le Pen gets into power or not.

marienbad

eeguy wrote: »

The boom was over 10 years ago. You might not have noticed, but things have changed in the meantime.

But still great profits were made by some from the sale of farmland , there was a report a few years ago of a farmer selling the lot for around 20 m and then buying it back after the crash for 2 m. And good luck to him .

stringed theory

johnp001 wrote: »

marienbad wrote: »

How is it dysfunctional and undemocratic ?

Mary Ellen Synon gave matt cooper a great interview this evening on that very subject.


The Last Word

This interview is like the rubbish. you expect from the  British tabloid press.  So a journalist thinks that the EU civil service is overpaid and over privileged.  I have no view on that.  It proves nothing. In terms of the big issues it is almost irrelevant. 
The European Union represents the democratic wish of the people as expressed through national governments and the European parliament.  It is at least as democratic an institution as the government of the United States, for example, and is no more dysfunctional than the national governments from whom it derives its powers.
It will not fail.  No other country has a press like the British press so devoted to spreading inflammatory and unchallenged garbage. No other country has such a nostalgia for a lost empire,  a nostalgia even for world war 2 ,  combined with such a deep seated and deluded  sense of  its own importance.

Wanderer78

stringed theory wrote:

This interview is like the rubbish. you expect from the British tabloid press. So a journalist thinks that the EU civil service is overpaid and over privileged. I have no view on that. It proves nothing. In terms of the big issues it is almost irrelevant. The European Union represents the democratic wish of the people as expressed through national governments and the European parliament. It is at least as democratic an institution as the government of the United States, for example, and is no more dysfunctional than the national governments from whom it derives its powers. It will not fail. No other country has a press like the British press so devoted to spreading inflammatory and unchallenged garbage. No other country has such a nostalgia for a lost empire, a nostalgia even for world war 2 , combined with such a deep seated and deluded sense of its own importance.

The eu is extremely undemocratic, the last few years has confirmed this. This could very well lead to its collapse.

topmanamillion

NIMAN wrote: »

There's still plenty of land and sites for sale up here in the NW.

Getting back to the thread, I think a lot will depend on what happens next in France, and whether Le Pen gets into power or not.

This is the crux of it. She seems to be completely written off by the media, political experts and polls, which if recent experience is anything to go by, means we all should bet the farm on her winning.

If she were to get in, her stated goals are tight border controls, removal of France from the Euro and a referendum on France/EU membership.
Success in 2/3 of those goals and the EU dramatically changes from its current appearance.

Sam Russell

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The eu is extremely undemocratic, the last few years has confirmed this. This could very well lead to its collapse.

The EU is democratic in that it stands on the shoulders of the democratic Governments that give it its legitimacy.

The British Government, on the other hand, is formed from a single party that got 37% of the popular vote, and has only one seat in Scotland, and none in NI, with 11 out of 40 in Wales.

Now how democratic is that?

What makes the EU look undemocratic is the biased reporting of the workings of the EU. 'Loyal hard working Civil Servants' become 'undemocratic faceless fat-cat bureaucrats' when they move to Brussels. Someone has to do the paperwork and make the routine decisions both in London and Brussels to make government work.

demfad

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Iceland got away with that though by being tiny. It's barely more than half the population of County Cork.

Greece is roughly 11 million, 33 times bigger.

Iceland's default wasn't going to upset that many people that badly, Greece would.

Also the Icelandic underling economy is very good. Tiny population sitting on free electricity and heat and other mineral resources etc etc
It's more that it had a banking and property mess like Ireland and both have actually recovered very well.

Iceland's currency took an hammering though and that was felt very badly up there. Also emigration was huge but, the population is so tiny that you'd barely notice them even if they all had moved.

Iceland is a very unusual economy.

Icelandic banks was used mainly by Russian oligarchs, financiers and 'businessmen' who used the lax regulations as a base for all sorts of corrupt activities including money laundering into the US.

If you remember the crash there there was word of a Russian 'bail out'. Putin did manage a bailout of sorts as one back was split with one part saved: his pals escaped on that lifeboat. He wasn't too worried about how his enemies fared and neither was the west (apart from some UK exposure) so Iceland was allowed to default.

323

stringed theory wrote: »

This interview is like the rubbish. you expect from the  British tabloid press.  So a journalist thinks that the EU civil service is overpaid and over privileged.  I have no view on that.  It proves nothing. In terms of the big issues it is almost irrelevant. 
The European Union represents the democratic wish of the people as expressed through national governments and the European parliament.  It is at least as democratic an institution as the government of the United States, for example, and is no more dysfunctional than the national governments from whom it derives its powers.
It will not fail.  No other country has a press like the British press so devoted to spreading inflammatory and unchallenged garbage. No other country has such a nostalgia for a lost empire,  a nostalgia even for world war 2 ,  combined with such a deep seated and deluded  sense of  its own importance.

I thought the interview was pretty good, Used to like her pieces before I gave up buying/reading Irish newspapers.

Does anyone really believe that EU spiel any more? Following comes to mind, from one of the greatest masters of propaganda and totally despicable human being.

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself." Joseph Goebbels

And "At the moment when British power is collapsing we have the opportunity to reorganize Europe on principles corresponding to the social, economic and technical possibilities of the twentieth century." Strangely enough from the same person when outlining his vision of ‘the Europe of the future’.
Change that to twenty first century and it sounds like all the the pro EU stuff in the media today.

Yep OP, the EU's days are numbered.