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Is it time to stop eating meat?

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    #212
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    The debate is whether or not a vehetarian diet is unnatural based on ancient diets. No one is denying meat was consumed. But there were certainly tribes ( you'll find on google if you want) that lived on fruit and veg, it just depends on your definition ofor ancient.

    I fail to see to see how a group with no access to meat would be deemed suddenly as living an unnatural lifestyle. It's natural to eat meat and veg, how is it unnatural to eat only one or the other?

    I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying here. Let me be clearer.

    There were certainly archiac vegetarian iterations of humans. They did not survive. They didn't survive because the metabolic requirement to digest plant matter meant that evolution and adaptation was so slow that these early humans didn't cope with environmental changes, like bad years when foraging didn't throw up enough/the right plant matter.

    The humans who thrived ate omnivorous diets, our iteration of humanity (homosapiens) are omnivorous. No question about it. We thrived because of meat and fish in our diets which gave us the nutrients that led to the brain and physical development that enabled us to outsmart and outadapt other species.

    There are plenty of valid reasons to adopt a vegetarian diet. Claiming 'we' used to be vegetarians and that's how we're meant to be is not one of them.


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    #213
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »

    There are plenty of valid reasons to adopt a vegetarian diet. Claiming 'we' used to be vegetarians and that's how we're meant to be is not one of them.
    I haven't said that at all? I even acknowledged in the previous post that 'we' ate meat.

    Edit. I also acknowledge that meat was pivotal in our development. I've never once stated otherwise.


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    #214
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,742 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    So the definition of what's natural can never change?

    Of course not.


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    #215
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    I haven't said that at all? I even acknowledged in the previous post that 'we' ate meat.

    You claimed there were ancient humans who ate nothing but plant matter.

    I agree, there were. They no longer exist.

    Holding up extinct species of humans as an example of how a person can thrive as a vegetarian seems somewhat faulty logic in light of that.

    Vegetarianism is a valid and healthy choice for many people, but it's not our default setting.


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    #216
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Of course not.

    I guess that's a philosophical debate for another day


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    #217
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    You claimed there were ancient humans who ate nothing but plant matter.

    I agree, there were. They no longer exist.

    Holding up extinct species of humans as an example of how a person can thrive as a vegetarian seems somewhat faulty logic in light of that.


    Vegetarianism is a valid and healthy choice for many people, but it's not our default setting.
    I was refuting a post that said they they didnt exist at all if you read back a few pages. And again it depends on your definition of ancient, I was more referring to tribes of developed humans like us. You can survive just fine on a vegetarian diet, be 5000 years ago or today.
    I've never once said it's our default setting either. I'm not even vegetarian myself as I stated early. My only issue is that it's being termed as an unnatural lifestyle choice.


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    #218
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    I was refuting a post that said they they didnt exist at all if you read back a few pages. And again it depends on your definition of ancient, I was more referring to tribes of developed humans like us. You can survive just fine on a vegetarian diet, be 5000 years ago or today.


    What tribes of ancient - according to your definition - humans are we talking about?

    Also, natural is something that occurs in nature. It's not open for interpretation.


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    #219
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,742 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    I guess that's a philosophical debate for another day

    Yes, it would involve a philosophical approach if you want to arrive at a definition of 'natural' that doesn't have science or history as it's basis.


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    #220
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    What tribes of ancient - according to your definition - tribes are we talking about?

    Also, natural is something that occurs in nature. It's not open for interpretation.

    There's evidence of vegetarian tribes in India. I can't post loads of links at the moment.

    And eating vegetables is as natural as it comes no? Or only combined with meat?


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    #221
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    The debate is whether or not a vehetarian diet is unnatural based on ancient diets.

    No. The debate is the effect of animal agriculture on climate change.


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    #222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    There's evidence of vegetarian tribes in India. I can't post loads of links at the moment.

    And eating vegetables is as natural as it comes no? Or only combined with meat?

    Nobody claimed the latter and you'll need to name the former.

    I don't need links, just name the 'ancient' tribes.


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    #223
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Peregrine wrote: »
    No. The debate is the effect of animal agriculture on climate change.
    I was talking about the debate I was having with the other poster when Candie quoted me.


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    #224
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    Nobody claimed the latter and you'll need to name the former.

    I don't need links, just name the 'ancient' tribes.

    Yes they did? That's the debate I was having when you waded in. So is a vegetarian diet unnatural or not?

    The Brokpa tribe.


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    #225
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    Yes they did? That's the debate I was having when you waded in. So is a vegetarian diet unnatural or not?

    The Brokpa tribe.

    They are believed to be no more than 2500 years in existence and their religious adherence to vegetarianism is less than 2000 years old. That's not an ancient tribe.


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    #226
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Christina Uptight Mimicry wrote: »
    They are believed to be no more than 2500 years in existence and their religious adherence to vegetarianism is less than 2000 years old. That's not an ancient tribe.

    Ah right. So ancient Egypt isn't ancient.

    And shouldn't they have died out by now?


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    #227
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    Yes they did? That's the debate I was having when you waded in. So is a vegetarian diet unnatural or not?

    The Brokpa tribe.

    I'm not sure what debate you were having, you made this claim:

    Angel Crow wrote: »
    I don't get the argument that we need meat or are designed to eat it. I know people that have been vegetarians for 10 and 20 years and are perfectly functioning intelligent adults. It's such a lazy attitude that because our ancient ancestors relied on meat for survival that we simply must eat it. It's not relevant to a society with a food surplus.

    I don't know if anyone insisted we must eat meat, but if you don't understand that we were designed to eat it then there's no point in discussing it. The only reason we're here talking about it is because we evolved to eat it.

    The Brokpa are a living tribe and on other occasions I notice that sites devoted to vegetarianism/veganism claim that they're supposed to have been vegan for 5k years, but the reality is more like 2k. It's not relevant to whether or not homosapiens as a species have evolved eating meat or not.

    As I've said, there are lots of great reasons why a person might choose to be a vegetarian, people not being designed to eat meat or ancient peoples being vegetarian is not one of them.


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    #228
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    I'm not sure what debate you were having, you made this claim:




    I don't know if anyone insisted we must eat meat, but if you don't understand that we were designed to eat it then there's no point in discussing it. The only reason we're here talking about it is because we evolved to eat it.

    The Brokpa are a living tribe and on other occasions I notice that sites devoted to vegetarianism/veganism claim that they're supposed to have been vegan for 5k years, but the reality is more like 2k. It's not relevant to whether or not homosapiens as a species have evolved eating meat or not.

    As I've said, there are lots of great reasons why a person might choose to be a vegetarian, people not being designed to eat meat or ancient peoples being vegetarian is not one of them.

    We werent designed to eat anything. You're changing your approach. Is vegetarianism unnatural?


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    #229
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    Ah right. So ancient Egypt isn't ancient.

    And shouldn't they have died out by now?

    They're modern humans, as evolved as any of us.

    Other species of humans, who only ate plant matter, have died out.

    The term Ancient Egypt refers to the civilisation.


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    #230
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    We werent designed to eat anything. You're changing your approach. Is vegetarianism unnatural?

    Where did I say it was? My only approach is to point out that eating meat was necessary to human development.

    Eating meat is natural. That doesn't make vegetarianism unnatural. People have all kinds of choices now that didn't apply in the past.


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    #231
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    Where did I say it was? My only approach is to point out that eating meat was necessary to human development.

    Eating meat is natural. That doesn't make vegetarianism unnatural. People have all kinds of choices now that didn't apply in the past.
    But that's exactly what I've being saying? You just assumed I said it's wrong to eat meat and we should only be vegetarian. I've never once said that, I eat meat myself but I was refuting a posters claim that it was unnatural to be vegetarian. You made up an argument for yourself.

    You also said the word natural is not debatable so how can you think vegetarianism is natural is if they all died?


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    #232
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »
    They're modern humans, as evolved as any of us.

    Other species of humans, who only ate plant matter, have died out.

    The term Ancient Egypt refers to the civilisation.

    That's also why said it depends on your definition of the word ancient, it's a hugely broad term.


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    #233
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,553 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    All the recent posts started from this post, and frankly I don't see what relevance the paleolithic lifestyle has to anything.
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Vegitarianism is unnatural. There has never been a human population with a paleolithic lifestyle that didn't get most of it's nutrition from non-plant sources.


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    #234
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    But that's exactly what I've being saying? You just assumed I said it's wrong to eat meat and we should only be vegetarian. I've never once said that, I eat meat myself but I was refuting a posters claim that it was unnatural to be vegetarian. You made up an argument for yourself.

    It is 'unnatural' in the sense that vegetarianism would have led to the probable extinction of early homosapiens.
    You also said the word natural is not debatable so how can you think vegetarianism is natural is if they all died?

    Natural means occurring in nature.

    I don't see what relevance a modern persons dietary choices have to do with that.


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    #235
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    Ah right. So ancient Egypt isn't ancient.

    And shouldn't they have died out by now?

    2000 years is nothing in evolutionary terms. It's fine. It just piqued my interest when you referred to ancient tribes.

    Ancient Egypt was gone by the time this tribe emerged and was replaced by Ptolemaic Egypt.


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    #236
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Candie wrote: »

    It is 'unnatural' in the sense that vegetarianism would have led to the probable extinction of early homosapiens.



    Natural means occurring in nature.

    I don't see what relevance a modern persons dietary choices have to do with that.

    And again that was exactly my point. I only mentioned the existence of ancient vegetarians to counter a poster that said they never existed. I never said which way was right or wrong. I do believe what happens in nature is always changing. And I also said it has no relevance on the modern human. It's all there in my previous posts. You invented points I never made and argued against them. Anyway, thanks for the debate.


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    #237
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Angel Crow wrote: »
    That's also why said it depends on your definition of the word ancient, it's a hugely broad term.

    It's not actually.


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    #238
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Christina Uptight Mimicry wrote: »
    It's not actually.

    So not a lot happened between the stone age and Ancient Egypt. Ok...


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    #239
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Angel Crow wrote: »

    And again that was exactly my point. I only mentioned the existence of ancient vegetarians to counter a poster that said they never existed. I never said which way was right or wrong. And I also said it has no relevance on the modern human. It's all there in my previous posts. You invented points I never made and argued against them. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

    Ah here. I'm out. The tribe you referenced are modern humans. They were modern humans when the tribe formed. You are arguing for the sake of it, so farewell.
    So not a lot happened between the stone age and Ancient Egypt. Ok...
    Eh, actually Ancient Egypt was in 'the stone age'.


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    #240
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Christina Uptight Mimicry wrote: »
    Ah here. I'm out. The tribe you referenced are modern humans. They were modern humans when the tribe formed. You are arguing for the sake of it, so farewell.

    Homo sapiens are modern humans. You need more experience in "your field."

    There's no difference between them and the first emerging homo sapiens. But they should have died out by your logic.
    You also thanked posts acknowledging vegetarian tribes existed so I guess it's you arguing for the sake of it.


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    #241
    Angel Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Angel Crow


    Christina Uptight Mimicry wrote: »
    Ah here. I'm out. The tribe you referenced are modern humans. They were modern humans when the tribe formed. You are arguing for the sake of it, so farewell.


    Eh, actually Ancient Egypt was in 'the stone age'.
    Yeah, no metal artifacts have come out of Ancient Egypt, but think you know I meant the beginning of the stone age.


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