Is it time to stop eating meat?

Angel Crow

Addisyn Tiny Coyote wrote: »

Not eating meat is unnatural for humans and just because with a lot of effort it is possible to manage without meat is not a reason to not eat it.

Not consuming meat has zero negative effects on a human and takes no extra effort. By all means eat meat, but to label vegetarianism as unnatural is completely false.

Sam Kade

323 wrote: »

None too bothered about shooting animals and fowl with antibiotics from birth.

Give up meat. Not a chance.

But wouldn't miss the processed sausage and bacon ****e OP mentioned.
Eat a lot less meat than seems normal for most nowadays. 70% of the meat we do eat, steak, stews, mince,sausage burger, all venison/game shot by myself or friends. No chemical crap or antibiotics

You need to do a bit more research on Irish farming instead of relying on YouTube videos.

cnocbui

Angel Crow wrote: »

Not consuming meat has zero negative effects on a human and takes no extra effort. By all means eat meat, but to label vegetarianism as unnatural is completely false.

Vegitarianism is unnatural. There has never been a human population with a paleolithic lifestyle that didn't get most of it's nutrition from non-plant sources.

trashcan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ive very little experience with farmers but from what i hear and been told, farmers are actually very much environmentally aware and environmentally caring which im sure is very true. it would be hard not to be, you spend all day outside and with nature, something i do as much as possible. i personally think of a lot of environmental policies are more about profiteering and moving the responsibilities of our environmental issues from certain section of society and placing them on the shoulders of others.

for example our 'polluter pays' principle is effectively a panacea. it effectively puts the responsibilities of these issues onto the end user, but this isnt the full story of these issues. the bigger picture is more complex, for example, in regards general waste, black bin rubbish is material that no longer has a useful use and must be disposed of. many of these materials are problematic and generally are disposed of by land fill or incinerator. both of these methods are also problematic, but my question is, why do we allow these materials to be introduced into the system in the first place and why is it almost the sole responsibility of the end user to deal with it and pay for?

this has lead me to an idea called 'the creator pays' principle, i.e. those that create these materials also must be held accountable for 'creating' these problematic materials. you will find that these producers are 'almost' exempt from our environmental policies, by doing so, would be seen as 'interfering with the market' :rolleyes:

apologies for the rant but id be interested in hearing it from a farmer's perspective as these issues are really annoying me now. i have an environmental background to some degree

That's an excellent point. Packaging of food is something that really gets me. Vegetables packed in trays wrapped in plastic. There's no need for it and it's just creating waste.

freshpopcorn

trashcan wrote: »

That's an excellent point. Packaging of food is something that really gets me. Vegetables packed in trays wrapped in plastic. There's no need for it and it's just creating waste.

I did a little bit of work in a supermarket and I was in deliveries and from speaking to the drivers and staff they'd never buy loose vegetables from a supermarket!

Angel Crow

cnocbui wrote: »

Vegitarianism is unnatural. There has never been a human population with a paleolithic lifestyle that didn't get most of it's nutrition from non-plant sources.

There's plenty of evidence of ancient tribes that lived solely on a vegetarian diet. It's also debatable if people got most of their nutrition from meat, as veg and fruit was far more readily available. You can't suffer from a vegetarian diet. To say otherwise is implying vegetables are only useful when combined with meat, which makes no sense.

Sam Kade

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I did a little bit of work in a supermarket and I was in deliveries and from speaking to the drivers and staff they'd never buy loose vegetables from a supermarket!

Why so?

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

Well that's exactly my point. That's why it's unjustifiable to consume meat the level that we that we do. I've no problem with anyone hunting for food, but I wonder how many people would actually have the stomach to kill an animal themselves. Much less traumatic to pay someone else to do your dirty work.

I'd have no problem with killing an animal and eating it if I had. We've done it with chickens in the past and anybody I know most from a farming background would be the same. Lots of farmers I know pick there best looking cow and send it to the butchers to be cut up for them because they've haven't the appropriate knives or places to hang the meat!

freshpopcorn

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why so?

Mainly vermin running around the place!

Angel Crow

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'd have no problem with killing an animal and eating it if I had. We've done it with chickens in the past and anybody I know most from a farming background would be the same. Lots of farmers I know pick there best looking cow and send it to the butchers to be cut up for them because they've haven't the appropriate knives or places to hang the meat!

Everyone must be the same so.

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

Everyone must be the same so.

In speaking about farmers in general and if they had issues regarding eating meat chances are they wouldn't be farmers!

Angel Crow

freshpopcorn wrote: »

In speaking about farmers in general and if they had issues regarding eating meat chances are they wouldn't be farmers!

Why are you talking about farmers?

cnocbui

Angel Crow wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence of ancient tribes that lived solely on a vegetarian diet. It's also debatable if people got most of their nutrition from meat, as veg and fruit was far more readily available. You can't suffer from a vegetarian diet. To say otherwise is implying vegetables are only useful when combined with meat, which makes no sense.

Have you got any links to support that assertion that multiple paleolithic communities were vegetarians?

You have it around backwards. Plenty of evidence that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally inadequate.

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

Why are you talking about farmers?

I must have misunderstood your earlier post about people killing animals for food because generally it's farmers who keep animals and they no problem doing the dirty work if they had to in my experience.

Angel Crow

cnocbui wrote: »

Have you got any links to support that assertion that multiple paleolithic communities were vegetarians?

You have it around backwards. Plenty of evidence that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally inadequate.

Why are paleolithic communities the benchmark for what's deemed natural? Are rape and murder natural?

osarusan

cnocbui wrote: »

Plenty of evidence that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally inadequate.

Any diet can be nutritionally inadequate. Any diet can be nutritionally adequate too.

What the body gets from meat can still be gotten without it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Angel Crow wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence of ancient tribes that lived solely on a vegetarian diet. It's also debatable if people got most of their nutrition from meat, as veg and fruit was far more readily available. You can't suffer from a vegetarian diet. To say otherwise is implying vegetables are only useful when combined with meat, which makes no sense.

You've touched on one of my fields of study. What "ancient tribes" were vegetarian? Pre cultivation vegetable and fruit sources were neither abundant nor constant.

Angel Crow

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I must have misunderstood your earlier post about people killing animals for food because generally it's farmers who keep animals and they no problem doing the dirty work if they had to in my experience.

I was saying that the modern consumer would most likely find it gross, upsetting or traumatic to slaughter themselves. The meat industry relies on delegation and an out of sight out of mind approach.

I'm sure when pushed people would kill an animal to survive but that has no relevance to our modern society, neither do the activities of cavemen.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Angel Crow

Christina Uptight Mimicry wrote: »

You've touched on one of my fields of study. What "ancient tribes" were vegetarian? Pre cultivation vegetable and fruit sources were neither abundant nor constant.

Quick Google will sort that. Your field of study should also tell you that veg and fruit sources would have varied dramatically in different parts of the world.

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

I was saying that the modern consumer would most likely find it gross, upsetting or traumatic to slaughter themselves. The meat industry relies on delegation and an out of sight out of mind approach.

I'm sure when pushed people would kill an animal to survive but that has no relevance to our modern society, neither do the activities of cavemen.

I've known plenty of people to work in meat factories and slaughter house from teenage girls to big men and the first few days they might be a little upset by it but it takes them no time to tuck back into their meat in my experience!

Angel Crow

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I've known plenty of people to work in meat factories and slaughter house from teenage girls to big men and the first few days they might be a little upset by it but it takes them no time to tuck back into their meat in my experience!

Teenage girls using the bolt gun?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Angel Crow wrote: »

Quick Google will sort that. Your field of study should also tell you that to say veg and fruit sources would have varied dramitcally in different parts of the world.

You haven't answered a civil question. What tribes are you referring to by 'ancient tribes'?
Very few vegetable food sources provided year round supplies in any part of the world for archaic societies. Of course plants vary around the world. That wasn't at issue.

I genuinely would like to know what ancient groups did not have a hunter element.

Angel Crow

Angel Crow wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence of ancient tribes that lived solely on a vegetarian diet. It's also debatable if people got most of their nutrition from meat, as veg and fruit was far more readily available. You can't suffer from a vegetarian diet. To say otherwise is implying vegetables are only useful when combined with meat, which makes no sense.

The study of paleofaeces says otherwise apart from anything else. Ancient humans may have gone long periods without meat, but meat was definitely on the menu. There's evidence that we started eating bone marrow (at least) 2.5 million years ago, several hominin species were knocking around at the time gnawing bone marrow and butchering meat.

The reason we're sitting on our butts writing rubbish on a forum on the internet is because our diets eventually included long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids - found in meat and especially fish, leading to the kind of brain development that eventually took us to the cognitive revolution. Humans have been omnivores for a very, very, long time. The length of our energy consuming intestines shortened to adapt to the eating of flesh, allowing the other high calorie burning machine - the human brain - to access the energy and it's growth and development accelerated accordingly.

Plant matter may have made up the bulk of the archaic human diet, but meat was also consumed - and without it it's doubtful we'd be here. Meat eaters thrived, early vege humans didn't.

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

Teenage girls using the bolt gun?

Maybe not bolt guns but they've being involved in various jobs in meat production and they still eat meat!

cnocbui

Angel Crow wrote: »

Why are paleolithic communities the benchmark for what's deemed natural? Are rape and murder natural?

Because of the choice of the word 'natural.'

If you take the human species as being around (edit) 2.8 million years old, then I think most people would consider that 'natural' would be the composition of our diet that has existed for the majority of that time period.

Agriculture is roughly considered to have pertained for about 10,000 years. So having a significant proportion of our diet being of plant origin has only existed for (edit) 0.36 % of human history. An almost exclusively plant-based diet therefore is clearly 'unnatural' from a historical perspective.

Yes, rape and murder are perfectly natural.

Angel Crow

Candie wrote: »

The study of paleofaeces says otherwise apart from anything else. Ancient humans may have gone long periods without meat, but meat was definitely on the menu. There's evidence that we started eating bone marrow (at least) 2.5 million years ago.

The reason we're sitting on our butts writing rubbish on a forum on the internet is because our diets eventually included long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids - found in meat and especially fish, leading to the kind of brain development that eventually took us to the cognitive revolution. Humans have been omnivores for a very, very, long time. The length of our energy consuming intestines shortened to adapt to the eating of flesh, allowing the other high calorie burning machine - the human brain - to access the energy and it's growth and development accelerated accordingly.

Plant matter may have made up the bulk of the archaic human diet, but meat was also consumed - and without it it's doubtful we'd be here. Meat eaters thrived, early vege humans didn't.

The debate is whether or not a vehetarian diet is unnatural based on ancient diets. No one is denying meat was consumed. But there were certainly tribes ( you'll find on google if you want) that lived on fruit and veg, it just depends on your definition ofor ancient.

I fail to see to see how a group with no access to meat would be deemed suddenly as living an unnatural lifestyle. It's natural to eat meat and veg, how is it unnatural to eat only one or the other?

Angel Crow

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Maybe not bolt guns but they've being involved in various jobs in meat production and they still eat meat!

Again I was asking how many people would kill an animal comfortably. Packaging rashers isn't killing.

Angel Crow

cnocbui wrote: »

Because of the choice of the word 'natural.'

If you take the human species as being around (edit) 2.8 million years old, then I think most people would consider that 'natural' would be the composition of our diet that has existed for the majority of that time period.

Agriculture is roughly considered to have pertained for about 10,000 years. So having a significant proportion of our diet being of plant origin has only existed for (edit) 0.36 % of human history. An almost exclusively plant-based diet therefore is clearly 'unnatural' from a historical perspective.

Yes, rape and murder are perfectly natural.

So the definition of what's natural can never change?

freshpopcorn

Angel Crow wrote: »

Again I was asking how many people would kill an animal comfortably. Packaging rashers isn't killing.

Well anybody I know involved in any form of meat production would have no issue with eating it! I've never heard of a butcher or abattoir worker being afraid to eat or have any issue with eating meat!