Roundabout right of way

Gooser14

Dravokivich wrote:

It's including 12 O'Clock as a desired exit from a right hand lane as an entry point. Other wise to read it so directly, you can't exit at 12 from a left lane entry either.

Why not?

n97 mini

If there is only one lane, it is the left lane. When changing lanes you have to give way to traffic in that lane, regardless.

Dravokivich

Gooser14 wrote: »

Why not?

If you are discounting X as an option, because it says between X and Y, an option up to X should also discount X.

Anyhow, there's images on page 130, that present 12 o'clock as an exit while entering from a right hand lane.

edit:
edited to add a screen cap of images referenced. GM228 had also mentioned this part earlier

GM228

n97 mini wrote: »

As we drive on the left there is always a left lane. On a roundabout where there is only one lane at the exit then it is the left lane. Anyone looking to pull into the left lane has to give way to traffic already in it.

n97 mini wrote: »

If there is only one lane, it is the left lane. When changing lanes you have to give way to traffic in that lane, regardless.

No there isn't always a left lane, there is however always a roadway, you must always drive to the left of the roadway.

If there isn't at least two paralell lanes in the same direction then there is zero lanes and the yielding right of way then only applies to entering a major road, junction etc.

n97 mini

GM228 wrote: »

If there isn't at least two paralell lanes in the same direction then there is zero lanes and the yielding right of way then only applies to entering a major road, junction etc.

Makes no sense, sorry. If there is one lane it is the left lane. We drive on the left.

GM228

n97 mini wrote: »

Makes no sense, sorry. If there is one lane it is the left lane. We drive on the left.

We drive on the left of the roadway, not the left lane, traffic lanes are paralell lanes running in the same direction.

There is no "lane" on what you describe, there is a centre line which we drive to the left of, it is not a lane, simply one side of a roadway.

coylemj

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's talking about use of indicators. They do lay out the clock face scenario I referenced. I'll look it up.

It's also telling you which lane to be (assuming no lane markings) and if you're going straight ahead, it says you should be in the left lane. The quote from GM228 in post #30 (which you clicked 'thanks' on) repeats this.

n97 mini

GM228 wrote: »

We drive on the left of the roadway, not the left lane, traffic lanes are paralell lanes running in the same direction.

There is no "lane" on what you describe, there is a centre line which we drive to the left of, it is not a lane, simply one side of a roadway.

Sorry, still makes no sense. When there is only one lane it is the defacto left lane. The only exception is when the road markings indicate the left lane must merge right.

Delacent

Dravokivich wrote: »

No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

Absolutely 100% wrong.

In absence of any markings directing otherwise, left lane for standard first and second exit, right lane for third exit.

Dravokivich

Look at the images I've posted lads. Straight from the book.

Isambard

Delacent wrote: »

Absolutely 100% wrong.

In absence of any markings directing otherwise, left lane for standard first and second exit, right lane for third exit.

and the reason is obvious...two parallel cars on a roundabout, the right hand car will have to change lanes,to take the straight on road, and if there is a car in the left lane already, he has to give way to it. Thus the ROTR say you should be on the left lane in this instance.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

Look at the images I've posted lads. Straight from the book.

Image you posted above is for two lanes exiting at 12 o'clock. We all know the answer to that, but it's not the question asked in the OP.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

If you are discounting X as an option, because it says between X and Y, an option up to X should also discount X.

Anyhow, there's images on page 130, that present 12 o'clock as an exit while entering from a right hand lane.

edit:
edited to add a screen cap of images referenced. GM228 had also mentioned this part earlier

Screen cap is irrelevant to the question.

GM228

n97 mini wrote: »

Sorry, still makes no sense. When there is only one lane it is the defacto left lane. The only exception is when the road markings indicate the left lane must merge right.

Legally lanes are distinguished by what is known as traffic sign RRM 003 which indicates lane boundries, the centre of the roadway line is traffic sign RRM 002, you can't have RRM 003 lines where there is no paralell lanes in the same direction.

GM228

At the end of the day I really can't understand why people argue over what you can and can't do and base that arguement solely on the ROTR which:-

A - Has no legal basis and,
B - specifically states that it is only a best practice and no law applies in the situation.

You don't have to do anything in the ROTR in relation to roundabouts, but it is best custom - there's a difference.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

Image you posted above is for two lanes exiting at 12 o'clock. We all know the answer to that, but it's not the question asked in the OP.

It doesn't matter how many lanes are at the exit point.

n97 mini wrote: »

Screen cap is irrelevant to the question.

But not to the discussion. I added it specifically in reference to a comment made by someone else earlier. I wasn't going to double post...

Isambard wrote: »

and the reason is obvious...two parallel cars on a roundabout, the right hand car will have to change lanes,to take the straight on road, and if there is a car in the left lane already, he has to give way to it. Thus the ROTR say you should be on the left lane in this instance.

But they don't. The ROTW say something along the lines of you need to yeild to traffic prior to changing lanes. Doesn't mention anything about where that occurs or from which lane to whatever other lane. The ROTW only state that the car in the left lane should not go further around the round about. It still advises the car in the right lane can take that exit.

coylemj

There is an ambiguity in the current RoTR on p.129 ('Golden Rule') concerning what lane you should be in if intending to proceed straight ahead (i.e. exit at 12 o'clock).

• If taking any exit from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.
  
• If taking any exit between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the right-hand lane.

The problem here is that there is an overlap - both bullets cover someone exiting at 12 o'clock - so should you be in the left or right lane?

The text on p.130 has no overlap and clearly states that if turning left or 'Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)' then you should be in the left lane. And when 'Taking any later exits (those past 12 o’clock – right)', you should approach in the right lane.

blackbox

coylemj wrote: »

• If taking any exit from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.
  
• If taking any exit between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the right-hand lane.

Look closely at the wording:
"from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position" includes the 12 o'clock position.
"between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock positions" only starts AFTER the 12 o'clock position.

.

Dravokivich

You are skimming over this item:

"Where conditions dictate otherwise, for example a long line of traffic in the left lane signalling left, or roadworks to the left lane, you may follow the course shown by the red line."

When traffic is entering the round about, anyone on the right lane can choose to exit on the 12 o'clock.

That does not mean on an empty road someone should immediately enter into the right hand lane to go straight through the round about.

If someone from the right lane needs to change lanes to exit the round about because there's only 1 lane at the exit, they have to make sure their way is clear before doing so. Just as every driver is required to before changing lanes anywhere on the road. It happening on a round about doesn't change that. Can't make the exit, go around again.

blackbox wrote: »

Look closely at the wording:
"from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position" includes the 12 o'clock position.
"between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock positions" only starts AFTER the 12 o'clock position.

.

Look closely at the wording, that means no one can exit at 12 o'clock.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

Look closely at the wording, that means no one can exit at 12 o'clock.

I think it's safe to assume "to" means including.

When dealing with time for example, 9 to 5 means exactly that, not 9 to 4.59.

If you were to apply that to the 12 to 6 position nobody can enter and exit the roundabout at the same location because it also says to 6.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

I think it's safe to assume "to" means including.

When dealing with time for example, 9 to 5 means exactly that, not 9 to 4.59.

That's the point I was making about between 12 earlier.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's the point I was making about between 12 earlier.

"Between" and "to" mean totally different things though.

To would include the starting and ending amounts, but if something is between two amounts, it is greater than the first amount but smaller than the second.

"Between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock position" is an example of where they have applied that reasoning. Between 12 and to 6 rather than between 12 and 6 is specific in that it's after 12 but up to and including 6 - i.e a full 360 turn.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

"Between" and "to" mean totally different things though.

To would include the starting and ending amounts, but if something is between two amounts, it is greater than the first amount but smaller than the second.

"Between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock position" is an example of where they have applied that reasoning. Between 12 and to 6 rather than between 12 and 6 is specific in that it's after 12 but up to and including 6 - i.e a full 360 turn.

Between the 12 to the 6 means, 12 is the first valid value. Not 12:00:01.

coylemj

You guys didn't take long to prove my point, it is an ambiguity.

Dravokivich

coylemj wrote: »

You guys didn't take long to prove my point, it is an ambiguity.

There's nothing ambiguis about it. If you need to change lanes that's already referenced much earlier in the book. If the have to cross reference that all over the book, I'll be overly complicated to read.

If you ask someone to pick a number from 1 and 10 or between 1 and 10, are they not allowed to pick 1?

Gooser14

bubblypop wrote:

To be honest if it was me or if anyone I knew told me this happened to them, I wouldn't just leave it. Did they actually take your photo? Or was it just a threat of some kind? I wouldn't like that Tbh. Seems very strange behaviour. I would write to the local superintendent & see who conducted this checkpoint. If you honestly feel like making a complaint you are quite entitled to. GSOC are tasked with investigating complaints against gardai, that's their job.

Delacent wrote:

In absence of any markings directing otherwise, left lane for standard first and second exit, right lane for third exit.

That's how it used to be but is no longer the case. RoTR now use the clock system to illustrate the lanes and exits to use. I preferred the old method as described by you above.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

Between the 12 to the 6 means, 12 is the first valid value. Not 12:00:01.

From 12 to 6 would include 12, between 12 and to 6 excludes 12. Not trying to be smart, but look up the definition of "between" in any dictionary and you will see between never includes the start or finish. We all make that mistake but the proper use of the word is to exclude the start and end point.

Between is specifically used in that instance for a reason.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

From 12 to 6 would include 12, between 12 and to 6 excludes 12. Not trying to be smart, but look up the definition of "between" in any dictionary and you will see between never includes the start or finish. We all make that mistake but the proper use of the word is to exclude the start and end point.

Between is specifically used in that instance for a reason.

I've looked up a few definitions, I didn't see anything to indicate what you've just said where the value is excluded. such as http://www.thefreedictionary.com/between

1.
a. In or through the position or interval separating: between the trees; between 11 o'clock and 12 o'clock.
b. Intermediate to, as in quantity, amount, or degree: It costs between 15 and 20 dollars.
2. Connecting spatially: a railroad between the two cities.
3. Associating or uniting in a reciprocal action or relationship: an agreement between workers and management; a certain resemblance between the two stories.
4. In confidence restricted to: Between you and me, he is not qualified.
5.
a. By the combined effort or effect of: Between them they succeeded.
b. In the combined ownership of: They had only a few dollars between them.
6. As measured against. Often used to express a reciprocal relationship: choose between riding and walking

When talking of values or origin/destinations, they're are not omitted by any means.

Even logic criteria on a Between command will accept the start and end.

There's just unnecessary doubt being cast over a word used here.

coylemj

Give it up lads.

Yanu

Thanks for the answers guys.

When I go through this roundabout it feels right to stay on the left lane to go straight but I have asked as many people don't. I have forgot to mention that there are no signs on the road and I think there should be. It shouldn't be left to the drivers discretion.

Just in case some of you wondered, the roundabout is in Oranmore, CO. Galway. Drivers from Galway will go through this roundabout and go left if they want to go to the Dublin direction and straight to the Limerick direction. It would make sense to me if there were signs telling people to use the right lane to go straight as that would spread the traffic a bit.

Thanks again.