Roundabout right of way

Yanu

Hi,

Sorry for the dumb question...

Two cars on a two lanes road (one in each lane) approach a roundabout and there is only one lane at the second exit (straight ahead). Who has the right to pass? The one driving on the left lane or the one on the right one?

Thanks

Isambard

if there is only one lane at the exit, both cars should have been on the left lane approaching the roundabout.

coylemj

Isambard wrote: »

if there is only one lane at the exit, both cars should have been on the left lane approaching the roundabout.

+1 unless there are arrows painted in the lanes on the approach road indicating otherwise, when there's two lanes leading to a roundabout and there are left, straight ahead and right exits off the roundabout, the right lane approaching the roundabout is for turning right only.

Dravokivich

To be honest, I wouldn't get too caught up in who has right of way. You seem to know that other car is there. I'd be inclined to keep a track of where they are to make sure i don't collide with them, even if there is something incorrect they do.

coylemj wrote: »

+1 unless there are arrows painted in the lanes on the approach road indicating otherwise, when there's two lanes leading to a roundabout and there are left, straight ahead and right exits off the roundabout, the right lane approaching the roundabout is for turning right only.

No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

Viscount Aggro

Some roundabouts I find it impossible to use, with heavy traffic and aggressive drivers. You have to nearly cause an accident to get on the roundabout. Its perfectly legal to keep going around the roundabout, having the right of way while on it. Imagine doing that, lol?

Another fact I found out, if you stop on a roundabout and someone rear-ends you, its your fault - illegal to stop on a roundabout.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

+1 unless there are arrows painted in the lanes on the approach road indicating otherwise, when there's two lanes leading to a roundabout and there are left, straight ahead and right exits off the roundabout, the right lane approaching the roundabout is for turning right only.

Dravokivich wrote: »

No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

Wrong.

Where there are no lane markings, the Rules of the Road page 109 (roundabouts) states as follows........

Making a left turn;

• Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
• Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Going straight ahead

• Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.

Isambard

Dravokivich wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't get too caught up in who has right of way. You seem to know that other car is there. I'd be inclined to keep a track of where they are to make sure i don't collide with them, even if there is something incorrect they do.



No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

that's the crack in the UK but it isn't so in Ireland. Unless there are two lanes on the straight ahead exit, cars should be in the left lane.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

+1 unless there are arrows painted in the lanes on the approach road indicating otherwise, when there's two lanes leading to a roundabout and there are left, straight ahead and right exits off the roundabout, the right lane approaching the roundabout is for turning right only.

Dravokivich wrote: »

No it isn't.

On entry to a round about that's similar to a clockface, with no signs or markings stating otherwise,

Entry from 6 o'clock position.

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

Right lane can take 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.

coylemj wrote: »

Wrong.

Where there are no lane markings, the Rules of the Road page 109 (roundabouts) states as follows........

Making a left turn;

• Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
• Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Going straight ahead

• Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.

Isambard wrote: »

that's the crack in the UK but it isn't so in Ireland. Unless there are two lanes on the straight ahead exit, cars should be in the left lane.

Dravokivich is correct, where no markigs are provided there is nothing to stop you using the right lane to go straight if you wish depending on the traffic conditions.

Remember there are no rules of the road specifically for roubdabouts (in law) where no lane markings are provided, the ROTR is simply a guide and no more.

my3cents

In the OP's original question if I was in the left hand lane I'd give way to the driver to my right same way as if someone was overtaking me but I would also respond with a good solid blast of the horn.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

Dravokivich is correct, where no markigs are provided there is nothing to stop you using the right lane to go straight if you wish depending on the traffic conditions.

Remember there are no rules of the road specifically for roubdabouts (in law) where no lane markings are provided, the ROTR is simply a guide and no more.

Take your point on the legal situation but if there's two lanes into the roundabout and only one lane going straight ahead, I'm betting that in a civil case arising out of the eventual collision between two cars competing for the one exit lane, the Rules of the Road will be quoted by the guy who was in the left lane. How is a judge going to rule against him in that situation?

my3cents

coylemj wrote: »

Take your point on the legal situation but if there's two lanes into the roundabout and only one lane going straight ahead, I'm betting that in a civil case arising out of the eventual collision, the Rules of the Road will be quoted by the guy who was in the left lane. How is a judge going to rule against him in that situation?

As I said above, give way to traffic on your right (but I've not a clue where I got that from?) which may be how a judge would look at it?

I'd be keeping my eyes open and giving way whatever lane I was in just because you never know what some idiot will do on a roundabout.

coylemj

my3cents wrote: »

As I said above, give way to traffic on your right (but I've not a clue where I got that from?) which may be how a judge would look at it?

So if someone is on your right on a roundabout, you must give way regardless of what he chooses to do? That 'rule' can be quoted to justify all sorts of crap driving.

my3cents wrote: »

I'd be keeping my eyes open and giving way whatever lane I was in just because you never know what some idiot will do on a roundabout.

That's a charter for bullies.

cruizer101

I reckon if there was crash insurance would split 50:50.
In reality one car would normally be a bit of ahead of the other, I would tend to think left lane has more right of way as they must leave at that exit where as right lane has a choice. I've never really seen it, normally if there was two in there would least be two out for at least 10-15 metres to allow merging or the two in would have arrows.

my3cents

coylemj wrote: »

So if someone is on your right on a roundabout, you must give way regardless of what he chooses to do? That 'rule' can be quoted to justify all sorts of crap driving.

You have to have a give way rule and thats the way I do it. Two cars on a dual carriage way that goes down to one lane its the car on the right that has priority. How is two lanes going to one any different on a roundabout as you exit?

coylemj wrote: »

That's a charter for bullies.

If I wanted to create an accident I could blindly obey the rules of the road on one particular local roundabout. If you take the right hand lane to turn right traffic on your left rarely looks to see whats on their right as they take the shortest route across to the opposite exit. Getting out the way of idiots and avoiding accidents is just common sense.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

Take your point on the legal situation but if there's two lanes into the roundabout and only one lane going straight ahead, I'm betting that in a civil case arising out of the eventual collision between two cars competing for the one exit lane, the Rules of the Road will be quoted by the guy who was in the left lane. How is a judge going to rule against him in that situation?

The ROTR has no legal standing and would be irrelevant in a court of law, and even if it did what would the person in the left lane be able to quote exactly in his/her defence, afterall it actually says you can use the right lane to go straight ahead as traffic permits and does not in relation to the OPs question deal with a right of way on a roundabout.

Remember the ROTRs rules on the use of roundabouts is a recommendation - i.e how best to act, but not a requirement.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

The ROTR has no legal standing and would be irrelevant in a court of law, and even if it did what would the person in the left lane be able to quote exactly in his/her defence, afterall it actually says you can use the right lane to go straight ahead as traffic permits and does not in relation to the OPs question deal with a right of way on a roundabout.

Remember the ROTRs rules on the use of roundabouts is a recommendation - i.e how best to act, but not a requirement.

It's not totally irrelevant, it's the prescribed script for the theory test which means that a new driver cannot get a driving licence without studying it and passing an exam, that confers some sort of 'legal standing' on it.

In a civil case you are not constrained as the police would be in a criminal case, there's nothing to stop you drawing the judge's attention to the guidance in the RoTR and asking him to rule in your favour on that basis.

Isambard

it's not give way to vehicles on your right, it's give way to vehicles approaching from your right.
In the case of two vehicles on the same road in different lanes, it's the one ahead that has priority.

my3cents

Isambard wrote: »

it's not give way to vehicles on your right, it's give way to vehicles approaching from your right.
In the case of two vehicles on the same road in different lanes, it's the one ahead that has priority.

So in the OP's case the fastest one around the roundabout has priority?

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

It's not totally irrelevant, it's the prescribed script for the theory test which means that a new driver cannot get a driving licence without studying it and passing an exam, that confers some sort of 'legal standing' on it.

As far as a court of law is concerned weather it be a civil or criminal case a document like the ROTR is not prima facia evidence in relation to the rules of the road, it may be used as a guide for theory tests etc, but it isn't a legal document and does not have any legal status, it is irrelevant.

If you are trying to prove in a court that someone was in the wrong for not following the rules then you must first prove the rules. The Documentary Evidence Act 1925 provides that the printed edition of legislation published by the Stationery Office (a hard copy paper version) is prima facie evidence of the content of the law, this applies to both civil and criminal cases. The ROTR does not satisfy that, even printing out an Act or SI from the eSIB (Electronic Irish Statute Book) isn't considered prima facie evidence.

In a civil case you are not constrained as the police would be in a criminal case, there's nothing to stop you drawing the judge's attention to the guidance in the RoTR and asking him to rule in your favour on that basis.

Actually you are incorrect, A judge can't legally rely on the ROTR, all he can rely on is the actual law (i.e - a hard copy from the stationary office as already explained above or case law) if it is a matter dealing with what is required under law.

The key difference between a criminal and civil case lies in how the case is proved, beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal case or on the balance of probabilities, i.e something is more likely than not (51% proved), that is the only difference between criminal and civil and what the prosecutor must work on.

For both criminal and civil cases the laws of evidence however still apply, if you are to introduce evidence that someone must have done something a particular way then you must produce conclusive evidence which proves they should have done that something a certain way in the form of a hard copy of the relevant Act or SI.

The ROTR does not place an obligation on someone to use any specific lane for any specific manouver therefore you can't show that they were obligued to act in any specific way, the ROTR does not achieve that as it is specifically a best practice guide, not a what you must do guide.


If as a person bringing such a case you expect a judge to go by the ROTR then you will have no problem with the other party pointing out that the ROTR specifically says:-

It uses terms such as should and should not to tell you how best to act in a situation where no legal rule is in place.

The overall aim of this book is to promote safety, good driving practice and courtesy in using our roads according to the law. It is an interpretation of the law from a road safety point of view; it is not the law. If you have a query, you should check the original legislation or ask a Garda.

And more importantly the correct quote from the ROTR based on their "Golden Rule" and actions which motorists "should" do (see above what should means in the ROTR):-

Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)

Approach in the left-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) but do not indicate ‘left’ until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise, for example a long line of traffic in the left lane signalling left or roadworks in the left lane, you may follow the course shown by the red line.

The red line is the right lane, it allows for the lane to be used where traffic dictates. The ROTR advises how best to act, not how you must act, a judge could never rule in your favour based on that even if it were considered to have legal standing, there is plenty of case law on the use of words such as "shall" and "should" and their meaning legally and should can't compell anybody to do anything even when used in legislation



Unfortunately when it comes to right of way when exiting a roundabout legislation and the ROTR does not deal with the issue.

coylemj

GM228 wrote: »

Actually you are incorrect, A judge can't legally rely on the ROTR, all he can rely on is the actual law (i.e - a hard copy from the stationary office as already explained above or case law) if it is a matter dealing with what is required under law.

I wasn't suggesting that the judge accept the RoTR as 'law', what I'm getting is that in a civil case with no apparent breach of the RTA law or regulations disclosed, one side could take it upon themselves to produce the RoTR as the official 'best practice' driving guide, claim that his client followed the guidance and therefore on the balance of probabilities, he should be adjudged to be in the right.

With nothing else to go on to split the parties, I don't see why a judge in a civil case would not take on board the guidance in the RoTR.

Isambard

my3cents wrote: »

So in the OP's case the fastest one around the roundabout has priority?

Well in my book you should never overtake on a roundabout, so no.

Gooser14

Dravokivich wrote:

Left lane can take 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock.

The actual wording on page 129 of Revision 5 (March 2015) of the Rules of the Road is as follows:

"If taking any exit from the 6 o'clock to the 12 o'clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane."

"If taking any exit between the 12 o'clock to the 6 o'clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the right-hand lane."

trellheim

While normally I'm quick to slag off the ROTR here

1) we know there' s no law on the topic

2) So its a Generally speaking - which Gooser has posted

quadrifoglio verde

Isambard wrote: »

Well in my book you should never overtake on a roundabout, so no.

So if I'm in lane 2 and geriatric slow driver is in lane 1 crawling as she's petrified of these roundabouts I should crawl too?

TheChizler

Yanu wrote: »

Hi,

Sorry for the dumb question...

Two cars on a two lanes road (one in each lane) approach a roundabout and there is only one lane at the second exit (straight ahead). Who has the right to pass? The one driving on the left lane or the one on the right one?

Thanks

What markings are there? The law only refers to lanes and markings so on that basis whoever was in their lane without crossing into the other lane safely would be ok.

Unless this is for your test in which case ignore the disagreements above and do what the ROTR say.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that the judge accept the RoTR as 'law', what I'm getting is that in a civil case with no apparent breach of the RTA law or regulations disclosed, one side could take it upon themselves to produce the RoTR as the official 'best practice' driving guide, claim that his client followed the guidance and therefore on the balance of probabilities, he should be adjudged to be in the right.

With nothing else to go on to split the parties, I don't see why a judge in a civil case would not take on board the guidance in the RoTR.

I think you are missing the point, first of all it would be up to the plaintiff to prove the defendent was in the wrong, not that they themselves were in the right.

The balance of probabilities is about proving something did or didn't happen as in the defendent was in the wrong.

Even in a civil case regarding such a situation you would still have to prove that the defendent was wrong in how they were supposed to act, the only way to do that is to fall back to the law as only the law dictates how someone is supposed to act in such circumstances, not the ROTR.

You can't hold someone liable for not doing something which isn't required of them to do in the first place.

And even if you could produce the ROTR it is still an opinion of the RSA on how best to act, not a requirement on how to act, even in civil cases there are rules of evidence, evidence produced must be a proof of facts, the ROTR isn't a proof of facts in relation to the rules of the road, only the law is. There is a long standing High Court decision (AG (Ruddy) vs Kenny   (1960)  ILTR  185,  190) dealing with this issue (coincidently in relation to a motoring issue) that an opinion is not admissable as evidence in a court, only the opinion of an expert witness is admissable.

Del2005

my3cents wrote: »

You have to have a give way rule and thats the way I do it. Two cars on a dual carriage way that goes down to one lane its the car on the right that has priority. How is two lanes going to one any different on a roundabout as you exit?

The vehicle merging into the lane has to give right of way to the vehicle already in the lane, I've seen very few roads where the left lane merges into the right lane. The car in the right lane would have to cross into the left lane to exit the roundabout. You have to give way to vehicles coming from your right at junctions not everywhere.

Dravokivich

coylemj wrote: »

Wrong.

Where there are no lane markings, the Rules of the Road page 109 (roundabouts) states as follows........

Making a left turn;

• Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
• Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Going straight ahead

• Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.

That's talking about use of indicators. They do lay out the clock face scenario I referenced. I'll look it up.

GM228

Dravokivich wrote: »

They do lay out the clock face scenario I referenced. I'll look it up.

Here it is:-

Golden Rule

This ‘golden rule’ should help motorists to drive safely at any roundabout regardless of the number of exits: Think of the roundabout as a clock.If taking any exit from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.If taking any exit between the 12 o’clock to the 6 o’clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the right-hand lane.If there are road markings showing you what lane you should be in, follow those directions. Traffic conditions might sometimes mean you have to take a different approach but, in the main, the ‘golden rule’ will help you to drive safely on almost any roundabout.

Approaching a roundabout
Conditions at roundabouts may vary. When you are coming up to a roundabout, look for directional arrows, road markings or signs which might be indicating which lane you should use for the exit you’re taking.Move into the correct lane in good time. Use the 12 o’clock ‘golden rule’ to help you plan a safe course of action unless road signs indicate otherwise.Treat the roundabout as a junction. You must yield to traffic coming from the right, but keep moving if the way is clear.

Making a left turn
Approach in the left-hand lane, indicate ‘left’ as you approach, and continue until you have taken the left exit.

Going straight ahead (or any exit to the left of 12 o’clock)
Approach in the left-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise) but do not indicate ‘left’ until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise, for example a long line of traffic in the left lane signalling left or roadworks in the left lane, you may follow the course shown by the red line.

When leaving the roundabout take extra care at all exits, checking for other road users – for example, cyclists and motorcyclists who may be continuing on the roundabout.


Taking any later exits (those past 12 o’clock – right)
Approach in the right-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise), indicate ‘right’ on your approach and leave your indicator on until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the ‘left’ turn indicator. Move over towards the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

n97 mini

As we drive on the left there is always a left lane. On a roundabout where there is only one lane at the exit then it is the left lane. Anyone looking to pull into the left lane has to give way to traffic already in it.

Dravokivich

GM228 wrote: »

Here it is:-

Yeap, was just gonna load up a screen cap of that too.

Coylemj, I think your copy maybe outdated as page 109 in mine refers to the 2 second rule :P

Screen cap of page 129 where GM228 excerpt can be found. I can upload the PDF somewhere if anyone wants it,

n97 mini wrote: »

As we drive on the left there is always a left lane. On a roundabout where there is only one lane at the exit then it is the left lane. Anyone looking to pull into the left lane has to give way to traffic already in it.

ROTW make no comments regarding number of lanes at entry or exit. So that doesn't really come into play at all. It's why someone may be hard set on their lane choices because it's easier to give a similar answer to yours. if you intend to switch lanes, you must always give way to traffic in that lane as mentioned. But if you can't make an exit due to this, you simply just go around the round about again.

Gooser14 wrote: »

The actual wording on page 129 of Revision 5 (March 2015) of the Rules of the Road is as follows:

"If taking any exit from the 6 o'clock to the 12 o'clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane."

"If taking any exit between the 12 o'clock to the 6 o'clock positions, motorists should generally approach in the right-hand lane."

It's including 12 O'Clock as a desired exit from a right hand lane as an entry point. Other wise to read it so directly, you can't exit at 12 from a left lane entry either.