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Proposed end to Bus Eireann intercity services
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oppenheimer1 wrote: »When you come out with this nonsense you automatically lose the argument. Instead of just increasing subsidy perhaps we should try and understand why BE is managing to lose so much when others can make a profit.
Increasing subsidy is rewarding the company for failing. For too long BE and the CIE group as a whole had been only focused on rewarding itself and slow to react to change. For example you've got the union's lodging a ludicrous pay claim when the company is 18 months from insolvency.
+1
for various reasons, CIE is essentially run for the benefit of its workers, Customers come a distance second . This is evident is all aspects of the CIE group .0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »When you come out with this nonsense you automatically lose the argument.
he doesn't though. his argument is very valid.oppenheimer1 wrote: »Instead of just increasing subsidy perhaps we should try and understand why BE is managing to lose so much when others can make a profit.
we all ready partly know. in terms of expressway routes, some of them effectively double up as PSO routes as well, in fact parts of the routes may as well be served by a PSO service rather then an expressway route. the reason for this is there is no PSO route existing, so BE for some reason feel obligated to continue serving these places. this means long journey times and less end to end traffic, the traffic in between may not be enough to bring in enough income. other operators don't have to serve any of those places, meaning huge journey time reductions, meaning more traffic, meaning a profit. bus eireann do run some non stop routes as well, which i'm sure are profitable.oppenheimer1 wrote: »Increasing subsidy is rewarding the company for failing.
it's not. it's funding the service and insuring more PSO routes can be implemented, ideally taking the pressure off the expressway to be a jack of all trades, so it can become what it was supposed to be.oppenheimer1 wrote: »For too long BE and the CIE group as a whole had been only focused on rewarding itself and slow to react to change.
it's not focused on rewarding itself, all though i would agree it is slow to react to change and it does need to focus more on the users. however, as i said in another thread the company is in a position where it cannot take risks over all for fear of getting it wrong, as they're is way to much scrutiny upon them from government and elsewhere, even in terms of expressway. dispite the fact that expressway is a commercial arm and they can do what they like with it, the fear is if they do try and change the routes and remove stops that aren't profitable, they would face a backclash which might cause them more problems then it is worth. i'm not saying they haven't made bad decisians and mistakes, hell yes they have. but they are between a rock and a hard place.
i believe with the right management and a good working relationship between staff and management and a backbone to stand up and change their commercial routes, the company can begin to be turned aroundticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »we all ready partly know. in terms of expressway routes, some of them effectively double up as PSO routes as well, in fact parts of the routes may as well be served by a PSO service rather then an expressway route.
They aren't PSO routes though. A fact BE would have been well aware of when planning them.
They were setup as commercial routes, a very bad bet as it turns out.0 -
it's not focused on rewarding itself, all though i would agree it is slow to react to change and it does need to focus more on the users. however, as i said in another thread the company is in a position where it cannot take risks over all for fear of getting it wrong, as they're is way to much scrutiny upon them from government and elsewhere, even in terms of expressway. dispite the fact that expressway is a commercial arm and they can do what they like with it, the fear is if they do try and change the routes and remove stops that aren't profitable, they would face a backclash which might cause them more problems then it is worth. i'm not saying they haven't made bad decisians and mistakes, hell yes they have. but they are between a rock and a hard place.
i believe with the right management and a good working relationship between staff and management and a backbone to stand up and change their commercial routes, the company can begin to be turned around
Quite frankly this is nonsense. firstly Management in CIE is probably on average no worse or better then in a private company , the real problem is that their is no connection between the " success " of the company and its costs , in particular its pay levels, Over the years strong PS unions have extracted wage deals and concessions that have no relationship with operating costs , because ultimately the tax payer will cough up.
This generates a company that begins to exist for itself , and not because there is a demand and a price point and a service that generates a profit.
In the private sector , there is an automatic recovery mechanism , periodically companies that make bad decisions or let their costs get out of hand, simply go out of business or get " restructured " into new business . This doesnt happen in CIE .
IN fact the problem in CIE generally is it is free to " experiment " without consequences and hence is shielded from bad decisions, not the way you have presented it0 -
They aren't PSO routes though. A fact BE would have been well aware of when planning them.
They were setup as commercial routes, a very bad bet as it turns out.
that's what i said. they are commercial services which operate part PSO route as well.Quite frankly this is nonsense. firstly Management in CIE is probably on average no worse or better then in a private company , the real problem is that their is no connection between the " success " of the company and its costs , in particular its pay levels, Over the years strong PS unions have extracted wage deals and concessions that have no relationship with operating costs , because ultimately the tax payer will cough up.
This generates a company that begins to exist for itself , and not because there is a demand and a price point and a service that generates a profit.
In the private sector , there is an automatic recovery mechanism , periodically companies that make bad decisions or let their costs get out of hand, simply go out of business or get " restructured " into new business . This doesnt happen in CIE .
IN fact the problem in CIE generally is it is free to " experiment " without consequences and hence is shielded from bad decisions, not the way you have presented it
but it isn't nonsense, it is very very real. i have no doubt unions have got good deals out of the company over the years but CIE isn't the only company where that has happened. if you want to talk about unions getting good deals look at the privatized railway over in the uk. the company isn't really free to experiment with routes. i have no doubt there are savings to be maid such as keeping coaches longer rather then constantly buying new ones when their older ones are perfectly good and a lot more to boot but i don't think they have as much of a free hand in matters as people believe. i really don't.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Let the company cut losses first then we'll see what subsidy the Government needs to provide.0
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end of the road wrote: »that's what i said. they are commercial services which operate part PSO route as well.
In which case they already attract a PSO subsidy.end of the road wrote: »but it isn't nonsense, it is very very real. i have no doubt unions have got good deals out of the company over the years but CIE isn't the only company where that has happened. if you want to talk about unions getting good deals look at the privatized railway over in the uk. the company isn't really free to experiment with routes. i have no doubt there are savings to be maid such as keeping coaches longer rather then constantly buying new ones when their older ones are perfectly good and a lot more to boot but i don't think they have as much of a free hand in matters as people believe. i really don't.
I think the Expressway fiasco illustrates the experimentation better than anything.0 -
Liquidate the drivers and dissolve the company0
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end of the road wrote: »that's what i said. they are commercial services which operate part PSO route as well.
but it isn't nonsense, it is very very real. i have no doubt unions have got good deals out of the company over the years but CIE isn't the only company where that has happened. if you want to talk about unions getting good deals look at the privatized railway over in the uk. the company isn't really free to experiment with routes. i have no doubt there are savings to be maid such as keeping coaches longer rather then constantly buying new ones when their older ones are perfectly good and a lot more to boot but i don't think they have as much of a free hand in matters as people believe. i really don't.
if you would like to talk to a privatised railway driver , I can set that up, their job situation is utterly changed and what has happened is a smaller number are making better money , but with less security and far greater productivity.
BE, was inherited from the GSR , in an era where bus compition was effectively banned in all but a few cases. IN that situation , a monkey could run a successful bus company. While this situation developed, the effective monopoly handled the unions a huge weapon of power, a strike could paralyse the national bus system. This was used again and again to extract concession that no private operator could do and stay in business. That was fine until , privatised competition arrived on the scene.
Now BE is exposed to the white heat of fares competition and service levels that customers actually want , ( better buses , faster routes etc ). BE simply cannot compete with their cost structures and this is what is happening
The solution is simply to allow private operators to run busses , with state subsidies over routes that must be provided for social reasons
The state does not need to run a bus service0 -
This is another example of Dublin and Cork being unable to afford rural subsidies. 40% of the population is too much to subsidize and the cracks are starting to appear. We need to pressure the Government to make rural dwellers to pay the full price of their services. If yous are wondering why your phone line rental is so high compared to the rest of Europe and why the government keeps stalling on Dublin Underground and Metro North, it's because so much of our tax money is going out to rural areas to finance their tranquil lifestyles.0
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Elemonator wrote: »Let the company cut losses first then we'll see what subsidy the Government needs to provide.
that is what they want to do, hence they wish to remove the unprofitable parts of their expressway so they can be replaced with PSO routes.In which case they already attract a PSO subsidy.
not for the unprofitable parts of their expressway. which is correct and fare that they don't as it's a commercial route.I think the Expressway fiasco illustrates the experimentation better than anything.
not really. much or part of the route would be viable if run as a non stop service, which is what expressway was supposed to be. as well as that some of the routes were running along the old routes that existed before the motor ways, and they were stopping in the towns anyway so may as well have served them.SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »Liquidate the drivers and dissolve the company
and leave most of the country without a service until such time as we set up everything to implement replacement operators. would take years and cost way to much. funnily enough i mentioned this all the other times you made this suggestion. no thanks, this tax payer doesn't wish to pay for it.The solution is simply to allow private operators to run busses , with state subsidies over routes that must be provided for social reasons
that's not the solution as costs rise massively as we have witnessed from the uk. relying on private operations for services is not cost effective and disasterous. the current system of private operators and a public operator is the right way.The state does not need to run a bus service
the state isn't running a bus service. a company paid for by the state is running the service.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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that's not the solution as costs rise massively as we have witnessed from the uk. relying on private operations for services is not cost effective and disasterous. the current system of private operators and a public operator is the right way.
The UK is not a good example , however the privatisation of the railways actually has been a huge sucesss in terms of passenger numbers, even freight has been " saved " to as greater extent
perhaps looking at the airline industry might be better, the state got out of the airline industry because a state airline could not compete and survive , the same is true of BEthe state isn't running a bus service. a company paid for by the state is running the service.
The state owns/controls and funds a bus company , it is clearly running a bus servicethat is what they want to do, hence they wish to remove the unprofitable parts of their expressway so they can be replaced with PSO routes.
THis must be resisted at all costs , as this is in effect a form of blackmail, and would leave BE as a subsidised operator with no interest in cost control, no competitve urge and no desire to provide a customer focused operation0 -
This is another example of Dublin and Cork being unable to afford rural subsidies. 40% of the population is too much to subsidize and the cracks are starting to appear. We need to pressure the Government to make rural dwellers to pay the full price of their services.
this old tripe again i see. rural "subsidies" (funny as we are all actually subsidized to a degree) come from the tax paid by the people including those living in said areas. people are entitled to affordible basic services, and we don't need to screw people for services that they are entitled to on the basis of begrudgery and hard done by nonsense. any attempt to do so will hopefully see rural dwellers take hard action. i would gladly stand with them.If yous are wondering why your phone line rental is so high compared to the rest of Europe and why the government keeps stalling on Dublin Underground and Metro North, it's because so much of our tax money is going out to rural areas to finance their tranquil lifestyles.
nonsense. the reason they're is no dublin underground or metro north is simply the government do not wish to pay for it. that isn't going to change whether you screw rural dwellers on the basis of begrudgery for the fact they are entitled to basic services for the tax they also pay or not. it would be their taxes contributing to both those projects if they were built also. line rentals are high because companies get away with over charging in ireland because people rely on the services they provide. the problem with some people is it's always someone elses fault they don't get. with dublin it's the rural dwellers and with rural dwellers it's dublin's fault. no it's government, and your fault if you voted for the government.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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The UK is not a good example , however the privatisation of the railways actually has been a huge sucesss in terms of passenger numbers, even freight has been " saved " to as greater extent
i will give you freight in terms of the uk privatized railway. however for the passenger sector, it is very very debatible as to whether privatization had an effect, or whether it was the external factors that occured around the early years of privatization that caused the growth in passenger numbers. i personally don't think the highest rail fares in the world, the poorist value for money in terms of subsidy, and a railway that is hugely fragmented and the huge costs that exist with it = a success. but it is what it is now, hopefully we don't make the same mistake.perhaps looking at the airline industry might be better, the state got out of the airline industry because a state airline could not compete and survive , the same is true of BE
i don't believe the airline industry is something that can be compared to the bus industry. there might be some aspects that could be caried over but because private only operation works in one doesn't mean it would in the other. i really don't believe it would work in the bus industry, and that the current method of a public company along with private operators is the best way.THis must be resisted at all costs , as this is in effect a form of blackmail, and would leave BE as a subsidised operator with no interest in cost control, no competitve urge and no desire to provide a customer focused operation
it doesn't need to be resisted as bus eireann wouldn't be getting out of expressway full stop, but the unprofitable bits. they cannot be forced to operate commercial unprofitable routes. they're is no blackmail here, simply a commercial arm of a company trying to make routes profitable or more profitable. cost control can be and does need to be implemented but with a company the size of be they're is only so much that can be done. however removing it from existence altogether would be bad for the country and the tax payer as there will be no fall back option when subsidies need cutting again due to a downturn and the privates can't make the profit they are entitled to make meaning them walking and routes being cut.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »not for the unprofitable parts of their expressway. which is correct and fare that they don't as it's a commercial route.
Which parts of Expressway operate under a PSO?0 -
i don't believe the airline industry is something that can be compared to the bus industry. there might be some aspects that could be caried over but because private only operation works in one doesn't mean it would in the other. i really don't believe it would work in the bus industry, and that the current method of a public company along with private operators is the best way.
it clearly isn't the best way, cause its not working , BE is losing a lot of money and its service offerings are dated and not customer focused. everywhere it comes up against private operators , it in effect cannot compete . It can only " compete " when the whole deck is skewed by regulation
clearly its not the best way. in that case surely its time to try something different , we have tried (a) all state control ( b ) partial state control , now why not try , no state control ( but with PSO routes )but with a company the size of be they're is only so much that can be done. however removing it from existence altogether would be bad for the country and the tax payer as there will be no fall back option when subsidies need cutting again due to a downturn and the privates can't make the profit they are entitled to make meaning them walking and routes being cut.
actually the experience in the UK , was that larger private companies proved to be more competitive then smaller ones and many initial smaller private companies were subsumed by larger ones . On that basis BE should be a mega-competitor , it has access to capital no private company can access, it has economies of scale , yet it is loosing money hand over fist
to suggest that we just go on as before is like Einsteins comment on insanity !0 -
Which parts of Expressway operate under a PSO?
they are commercial routes that in some cases take up the slack in part of being a PSO service. but they don't get a subsidy for it as it's a commercial route.it clearly isn't the best way, cause its not working , BE is losing a lot of money and its service offerings are dated and not customer focused. everywhere it comes up against private operators , it in effect cannot compete . It can only " compete " when the whole deck is skewed by regulation
clearly its not the best way. in that case surely its time to try something different , we have tried (a) all state control ( b ) partial state control , now why not try , no state control ( but with PSO routes )
because for starters no state control leads to another britain, with the most expensive bus subsidies in the world. bus eireann is losing money for many reasons, so the obvious thing to do is to try and get those costs down where possible, not to remove the company altogether. it's existence is good for tax payers as they will keep the most loss making routes going on the most minimal of subsidy in times of austerity. it's services need improving that i agree with, but it will require many things which the now NTA should be focusing on. apparently their PSO routes are seeing growth, which is a good thing. i have no doubt there is a lot of work to do, but i believe it can and should be done.actually the experience in the UK , was that larger private companies proved to be more competitive then smaller ones and many initial smaller private companies were subsumed by larger ones . On that basis BE should be a mega-competitor , it has access to capital no private company can access, it has economies of scale , yet it is loosing money hand over fist
and it all ended up being bad for the user who either ended up with no service, or a may as well non existant service outside where it was commercially viable. not only that, but subsidisation became the most expensive in the world, and outside london has been cut or removed due to the huge expence. there is a decline of bus use outside london, not surprising considering all of this.to suggest that we just go on as before is like Einsteins comment on insanity !
i would agree, hence i don't wish to see us end up like britain. which i know will happen without a public company existing.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »they are commercial routes that in some cases take up the slack in part of being a PSO service. but they don't get a subsidy for it as it's a commercial route.
So it's not a PSO service at all. That's it. Easy. No PSO.
It's a failed experiment that was allowed to go on for far too long because someone else is picking up the tab.0 -
No profitability no point, shut is down asap, let the private sector compete.0
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Not sure how this is news to anyone especially Bus Eireann
Take Limerick-Dublin. The Dublin Coach that goes directly from Limerick to Dublin/Airport with a more reasonably paid driver is commercially outperforming the bus that trundles through Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise. I assume the same happens on the M1, M6, M8 and M9 express services. I often see Expressway coaches leaving Limerick (Dublin bound) with a handful of passengers on board and wonder how long more it would carry on for.0 -
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Not sure how this is news to anyone especially Bus Eireann
Take Limerick-Dublin. The Dublin Coach that goes directly from Limerick to Dublin/Airport with a more reasonably paid driver is commercially outperforming the bus that trundles through Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise. I assume the same happens on the M1, M6, M8 and M9 express services. I often see Expressway coaches leaving Limerick (Dublin bound) with a handful of passengers on board and wonder how long more it would carry on for.
But what happens the people of these towns who want to get to Limerick of Dublin?0 -
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Nenagh & Roscrea all have a criminally underused rail service with a ridiculous timetable. Portlaoise has a full rail service to Dublin as it's on the Dublin-Cork line.
Meanwhile all Expressway Limerick-Dublin services have to go through these towns as well. There should be a proper rail/bus timetable for both with services reflecting demand. The likes of Roscrea don't need buses to Dublin calling several times a day if there's no demand.0 -
Nenagh & Roscrea all have a criminally underused rail service with a ridiculous timetable. Portlaoise has a full rail service to Dublin as it's on the Dublin-Cork line.
Meanwhile all Expressway Limerick-Dublin services have to go through these towns as well. There should be a proper rail/bus timetable for both with services reflecting demand. The likes of Roscrea don't need buses to Dublin calling several times a day if there's no demand.
You ever get the early bus from Limerick to Dublin. A practically empty bus with a smoke break in nenagh and Roscrea for the driver0 -
So it's not a PSO service at all. That's it. Easy. No PSO.
yes, you finally get it. commercial routes that act in part like a PSO service but don't get any government funding. however to make the routes profitable again bus eireann will have to change that and pull out of these towns, the relevant authorities having to insure those towns receive a PSO service instead. that in my view is what needs to happen.It's a failed experiment that was allowed to go on for far too long because someone else is picking up the tab.
failed experiment? it was never an experiment in the first place. it was not the way it was because we are picking up the tab. of course, you know this all ready.Atlantic Dawn wrote: »No profitability no point, shut is down asap, let the private sector compete.
shut what down. the expressway bit of the company or the lot? i think you will find the private sector are competing and always have been. bus eireann always have had competition from privates on routes either in full or part. however relying on full private operation only does not work, a public company along with private operators does.Not sure how this is news to anyone especially Bus Eireann
Take Limerick-Dublin. The Dublin Coach that goes directly from Limerick to Dublin/Airport with a more reasonably paid driver is commercially outperforming the bus that trundles through Nenagh, Roscrea and Portlaoise. I assume the same happens on the M1, M6, M8 and M9 express services. I often see Expressway coaches leaving Limerick (Dublin bound) with a handful of passengers on board and wonder how long more it would carry on for.
"more reasonly paid driver" . who says? you? maybe it's actually bus eireann drivers who are the reasonably paid drivers. thankfully it's not for us to decide but the companies. and i have no doubt if bus eireann could drop these towns from their expressway services they would do so.But what happens the people of these towns who want to get to Limerick of Dublin?
a PSO service would likely be instated as a replacement.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »yes, you finally get it. commercial routes that act in part like a PSO service but don't get any government funding.
I'm assuming by 'act in part like a PSO' you mean it's not viable without a subsidy.
Probably not clever to start such an experiment although the downsides are fairly limited for a public sector operation. I guess they have that luxury where a private operator wouldn't.0 -
I'm assuming by 'act in part like a PSO' you mean it's not viable without a subsidy.
Probably not clever to start such an experiment although the downsides are fairly limited for a public sector operation. I guess they have that luxury where a private operator wouldn't.
i have just told you it wasn't an experiment. i hope i won't have to keep stating this over and over again but i will if needs be.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »i have just told you it wasn't an experiment. i hope i won't have to keep stating this over and over again but i will if needs be.
You appear to be unable to say what it was.
What was it? A strategic investment? A cunning plan from the loosing-money team? A PSO route that didn't actually feature a PSO anywhere?0 -
Just saying that most European countries don't have a national bus company most have bus services run by a local council. With no nationally run intercity buses only trains some expressway services are rail duplicates. If we a decent rail natwork these services wouldnt be nessecary0
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You appear to be unable to say what it was.
What was it? A strategic investment? A cunning plan from the loosing-money team? A PSO route that didn't actually feature a PSO anywhere?
they would have been the main routes before the motor way. the busses would have been passing through the towns where a by-pass didn't exist, so as they would have been passing through they stopped to pick up traffic. licencing and politics didn't allow them to sort out those routes once the motor ways opened. now however, hopefully they will have a free hand and will be able to make these routes competitive and quicker and profitable or more profitable by changing them.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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