Proposed end to Bus Eireann intercity services

Nermal

biko wrote: »

Large cities already have good connection points. We must make sure small towns and villages are not cut off from bus services.

Why?

_Kaiser_

Billy86 wrote: »

Transport in Ireland would be so, so much better if Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus ceased to exist ASAP and were replaced by private operators.

While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of either company, I recognise that they (or someone at least) have a valuable place on routes where there's not much profit to be had.

It's all very well to talk about private companies being better, but that's only so long as there's money to be made. As long as there's enough money there'll also be competition which drives prices down and encourages better service - all good for the user

However on a quieter, more isolated route leaving it to private operators may result in no service at all or hugely expensive to the user.

In short, there's a place for both private AND public/subsidised services in the market.

end of the road

Graham wrote: »

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that isn't an innovation as for all we know all operators have that.

Permabear wrote: »

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the thing is that bus eireann are a lot bigger company with a lot more staff and routes, many staff have been working a long time as well. so it's easy for that average to exist over all. realistically they're is no comparison here as both companies are very different.

Permabear wrote: »

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the show me the money mentality exists in many transport companies public and private. however nobody expects 60k for driving a bus.

Anita Blow wrote: »

An intercity network is essential so if needs be, increase the subvention. But any additional taxpayer funds provided should be coupled to cost-cutting measures such as employee numbers/remuneration. The fact that only a couple of months ago BE bus drivers were looking for a pay increase when their employer is haemorrhaging money shows just how pie-in-the-sky their demands are.

cutting employee numbers means less employees meaning more reliance on overtime meaning if things go wrong things suffer. cutting remuneration can only go so far before you cause good staff to leave.

Billy86 wrote: »

Transport in Ireland would be so, so much better if Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus ceased to exist ASAP and were replaced by private operators.

no it wouldn't. not long term anyway.

Nermal wrote: »

Why?

to releave congestion and insure access to employment and other necessary services, benefiting the economy and one's well being.

Koptain Liverpool

Nermal wrote: »

Why?

Because many people live in small towns and villages

Nermal

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

Because many people live in small towns and villages

So? Why shouldn't they pay the full cost of providing a service to them?

hmmm

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

My argument would be that for a private company profitability always comes first.

Failing that I'd prefer to have the intercity bus network operated publicly.

That argument is trotted out repeatedly, as if the selfless employees of the public service company are above such grubby matters as profit. Public companies may not be run for profit, but neither are they run strictly to benefit the public - in many cases, a valid argument is made that the priority is the comfort of the staff, with the public a distant second.

At least with private operators, and competition, the public gets a choice as to the type of service they want. And unfortunately for Expressway, it appears that choice has not gone their way - so I don't see why the solution here is to force people to use this service, when they've clearly expressed an interest in using the alternative.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I was travelling behind a JJ Kavanagh & Sons coach recently and noticed that "Est 1919" was written on the back.

This family have been operating a private transport company profitably for nearly 100 years. If they can do it, why can't the State?

Vic_08

Permabear wrote: »

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Those figures are just overall wage bill divided by number of employees. The likes of JJK will have a lot of part-timers which pulls the average way down. There is no way they are paying 25k before tax to full time drivers.

The main problem in BE and CIE in general is the amount of managers and other non revenue earning staff on massive wages.

A wage for a driver on 39 hours with all payments except Sunday on the top scale (5 years service) is around 36k before tax. Most drivers will be getting substantial overtime, even those who don't want it as the hours can be very long, so 40-42k would be my estimate on average pay per driver. It requires a hell of a lot of people to be earning big wages to pull the average to 52k.

westcoast66

I don't think this will happen. Can anyone remember the last time employees of an Irish semi state were made redundant?

eeguy

Vic_08 wrote: »

Most drivers will be getting substantial overtime, even those who don't want it as the hours can be very long, so 40-42k would be my estimate on average pay per driver. It requires a hell of a lot of people to be earning big wages to pull the average to 52k.

The Public Sector has never heard of the concept of Lean Management.

You can be guaranteed that a few pieces of software could massively overhaul the system and cut plenty of fat.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

So? Why shouldn't they pay the full cost of providing a service to them?

they do. it's called tax.

hmmm wrote: »

At least with private operators, and competition, the public gets a choice as to the type of service they want.

only where it is viable and profitable. where it isn't then regardless of who operates it they're will be no choice. so private operators wouldn't bring anything to the PSO services as the NTA would be regulating absolutely everything anyway.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was travelling behind a JJ Kavanagh & Sons coach recently and noticed that "Est 1919" was written on the back.

This family have been operating a private transport company profitably for nearly 100 years. If they can do it, why can't the State?

because the state has to operate to almost everywhere regardless of whether it is profitable or loss making. the private operators don't.

westcoast66 wrote: »

I don't think this will happen. Can anyone remember the last time employees of an Irish semi state were made redundant?

not exact years dates and times no, but plenty of staff have been made redundant from the public service and semi-state sector

Nermal

end of the road wrote: »

they do. it's called tax.

No they don't, they (like everyone outside of Dublin & Cork) are net recipients of government spending. Why shouldn't they pay what it actually costs to provide a bus service to them?

TrustedApple

Give you a idea of bus prices for me.

30 euro return on the air couch from Cork To Dublin Airport.

When i wont to go home to the sticks a town on the main express way route with Bus Eireann its 28 euros for a journey that is 80KM up and 80KM down.

I still don't get how its more or less cheaper to get to Dublin then my home town.

starlit

Its a shame really I find it so handy when not driving especially for longer journeys or if I didn't feel like a long drive. Can relax and sleep on the bus. I can't see why they just cut down on the amount of services rather than get rid of them completely.

People who cannot drive or can't afford a car, the elderly and those living in rural areas are going to be very put out by it. It was fantastic as a service during the years I learnt to drive and as a student going to college. It helped me get to know my way around a town/city not just by driving based on observation.

I know there is the possibility of private operators. Bus Eireann is great to link between connecting buses whereas you are under more pressure to make a bus/train connect.

For those in the South of the Country be a lot harder to get to Dublin and to the other cities and have to become depended on the trains more for longer journeys. They are handy but there are times they are jam packed at least a bus you just wait for the next one!

On Trains I sometimes can't get a seat at busy times and only so many services connect between Tralee, Charleville, Limerick and Mallow to go to the cities. There is no connecting train for those coming from Tralee/Killarney to Limerick direct except a bus! If to get a train they have to go backwards by train via county Cork and change along the line after having come down by Mallow and then onto Limerick Junction! Its crazy! Its enough to do that to go to Cork/Dublin! It means they have only the option to go on a private bus or drive!

eeguy

TrustedApple wrote: »

I still don't get how its more or less cheaper to get to Dublin then my home town.

Because its cheaper to run a full bus than an empty bus.

TrustedApple

eeguy wrote: »

Because its cheaper to run a full bus than an empty bus.

And that bus in question i get is on the main Dublin Route and is always full as well and sometimes has 2 full buses in the evening time.

So i don't know ha

RGDATA!

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

It's immaterial where I live, but it's not a major regional town. The thread in about inter city is it not? And private operators cover inter city very well. And, yes, they most certainly offer late night runs that include the airport.

Not where I live they don't, I'd say that was the point the first poster was making. Easy to say "meh" when it doesn't effect you.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

No they don't, they (like everyone outside of Dublin & Cork) are net recipients of government spending.

yes they do, it's called tax. everyone is a net recipient of something somewhere, that's life.

Nermal wrote: »

Why shouldn't they pay what it actually costs to provide a bus service to them?

because it's not cost effective and would mean people being unable to afford to use the services meaning the economy loses. therefore it's our job to subsidize vital services that benefit the country economically and socially, which these do as they bring people to employment or get them out spending in the nearest local economy.

RobertKK

FionnK86 wrote: »

RobertKK,

Dublin Coach is €20 not €30 for a return ticket from Kilkenny to Dublin.



Source: http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php

You are right, I was going to the airport, which makes it €15 each way.
Bus Eireann were cheaper.

RobertKK

marvin80 wrote: »

I got a Kavanaghs bus from Dublin to Clonmel a few weeks ago return - €20 so I'd presume to Kilkenny it's a little cheaper again.

Vic_08 wrote: »

...And Bus Eireann are €10 single and €16.50 return not 25.38

Total fares fail RobertKK

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

I should have said Dublin airport.

FionnK86

RobertKK wrote: »

I should have said Dublin airport.

Sorry I thought you meant the city/ Red Cow.

CalamariFritti

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's not profitable, why is it as usual that the government are called on to bail them out with subsidy?

Let them cut costs first.

Because there is such a thing as a public service. You know the kind of thing you get in return for paying taxes?

But I understand this is the thing now. Even crèches better make a profit or else. It's not going to turn us into a wonderful society though.

Koptain Liverpool

Nermal wrote: »

So? Why shouldn't they pay the full cost of providing a service to them?

Or better yet, why doesn't the government just force everyone to move to Dublin or Cork. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Koptain Liverpool

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's not profitable, why is it as usual that the government are called on to bail them out with subsidy?

Let them cut costs first.

We're not talking about subsidising Microsoft or the like though are we???

Taxes pay for Public Services. That's how it works.

Not all public bodies have to make a profit.

Well at least they didn't until so many fools in Ireland and the rest of Europe starting believing that message which has been spoonfed by the EU, government, and media during the austerity drive of the past few years.

RobertKK

FionnK86 wrote: »

Sorry I thought you meant the city/ Red Cow.

Not your fault, you are not a mind reader when I gave a generic 'Dublin'.

Awesomeness

Will be an interesting battle with unions. Its crazy but even with the amount of losses present they are not looking just to keep their jobs but to actually get pay rises

eeguy

Awesomeness wrote: »

Will be an interesting battle with unions. Its crazy but even with the amount of losses present they are not looking just to keep their jobs but to actually get pay rises

Small 12 seater autonomous buses were rolled out in a few cities around the world. At the moment they're really slow, but in a few years it could be a viable answer to all the low capacity services around the country.

My local service runs twice a day and would never have more than 20 people on a 50 seater bus. At that capacity they'd never make a profit. Even if they ran a mini-bus the driver is still paid the same wage.

jimgoose

This is an example of the sort of thing a Government actually should be doing with Revenue funds, to wit providing transport for people and regions that wouldn't otherwise have it because it isn't commercially viable.

reason vs religion

It's equally not viable for the state to allow competition on profitable routes and then fund BE to pick up all the slack on the loss-making routes. I accept that there is a public-need requirement to serve small towns, etc, but private operators should be compellled to serve such towns, pay a levy to enable BE to do so or be restricted in some way to allow BE to be able to compete.

I favour the first. For most consumers, the private services are better. They were the first to bring in wifi and I've found their buses to be better, it's usually cheaper for my student tickets, and most importantly it's shorter. I was in Cork last week and was on the road for one hour more with BE than I would have been on a private service. That's a lot of time!

Graham

reason vs religion wrote: »

It's equally not viable for the state to allow competition on profitable routes and then fund BE to pick up all the slack on the loss-making routes.

That is entirely viable when the loss-making routes benefit from a public subsidy.