Proposed end to Bus Eireann intercity services

Koptain Liverpool

Bus services on many intercity routes have been cut back and become more expensive in recent years.

The latest news seems to suggest that intercity bus services could be curtailed altogether as they're not profitable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/radical-surgery-may-be-needed-at-bus-%C3%A9ireann-1.2931954

Whatever about the need for a national airline it is essential for a country like Ireland to have a national network of intercity buses.

While not important for most people in Dublin, Cork, and Galway, it would be a massive blow for people in the rest of the country as the private operators only cover major routes.

If it's not profitable then it should be fully subsidized.

oppenheimer1

If it's not profitable, why is it as usual that the government are called on to bail them out with subsidy?

Let them cut costs first.

jacksie66

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hmmm

We need InterCity and Inter Town bus services, and the government should subsidise them if necessary. We don't need Expressway to be the one to deliver them.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Intercity private buses are thriving and profitable. Bus Eireann can't make them pay but we non-Dublin people are now well served with regular, inexpensive, quality private bus services nowadays.

Koptain Liverpool

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

Intercity private buses are thriving and profitable. Bus Eireann can't make them pay but we non-Dublin people are now well served with regular, inexpensive, quality private bus services nowadays.

Where do you live? A major regional town I would guess.

Left solely to private operators only the major routes will be served.

Do the private operators offer any services late at night for the airport etc.

Badly Drunk Boy

"Bus Éireann has about 2,600 staff, and in essence has three divisions; the commercial Expressway inter-city services, the State-subsidised routes that operate within cities and between towns, and the school transport services."

If it's only the first of these three divisions of Bus Eireann, it shouldn't be that big a problem since the private operators will serve them anyway. If the routes between cities and towns, that's a different matter.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

Where do you live? A major regional town I would guess.

Left solely to private operators only the major routes will be served.

Do the private operators offer any services late at night for the airport etc.

It's immaterial where I live, but it's not a major regional town. The thread in about inter city is it not? And private operators cover inter city very well. And, yes, they most certainly offer late night runs that include the airport.

Hector Bellend

I travel around Ireland watching GAA.

Even for a pastime such as this an Intercity bus service can be an important factor.

Undoubtedly there are people who rely on it for more important reasons.


Even in Dublin there are more towns served by the bus service than there are by rail.

_Jamie_

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

The thread in about inter city is it not?

Well, intercity would cover the whole rural network really, not all Irish Rail intercity services links cities to Dublin (Sligo, Westport, Tralee), it's a catch-all phrase for the rural network. It's the same with Bus Eireann. Private operators would be much less extensive as it simply wouldn't be profitable to have as extensive a network as Bus Eireann have. Bus Eireann's money woes demonstrate this.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Well, intercity would cover the whole rural network really, not all Irish Rail intercity services links cities to Dublin (Sligo, Westport, Tralee), it's a catch-all phrase for the rural network. It's the same with Bus Eireann. Private operators would be much less extensive as it simply wouldn't be profitable to have as extensive a network as Bus Eireann have. Bus Eireann's money woes demonstrate this.

It's patently clear the problems are with the Expressway arm of the business.

hmmm

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Private operators would be much less extensive as it simply wouldn't be profitable to have as extensive a network as Bus Eireann have.

If a service is required, the government will put it out to tender and subsidise it if needed. It doesn't matter who is providing it - private or public. We had a pretty poor service back in the days when we were reliant on the goodwill of CIE, private operators have brought in most of the innovations in the market.

_Jamie_

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

It's patently clear the problems are with the Expressway arm of the business.

Is it? That's very hard to believe and the RTÉ article I'm reading on it does not single out Expressway.

end of the road

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it's not profitable, why is it as usual that the government are called on to bail them out with subsidy?

because in terms of PSO routes which they are expected to run, it is the job of the government to pay for them. in terms of the expressway which is not subsidized and is a commercial operation, bus eireann will have to figure out the best course of action of their own accord and won't be getting any bailout.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Let them cut costs first.

that is what they are doing.

jacksie66 wrote: »

Meh. It doesn't bother me when many private operators do a better job cheaper and quicker.

because they aren't expected to serve everywhere and won't have the politicians on their back if they change/cut/remove services, unlike bus eireann even on their commercial expressway services which don't and will never receive a subsidy. i'm sure those people who rely on those services would be bothered.

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

Where do you live? A major regional town I would guess.

Left solely to private operators only the major routes will be served.

Do the private operators offer any services late at night for the airport etc.

they do depending on the routes

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

We need InterCity and Inter Town bus services, and the government should subsidise them if necessary. We don't need Expressway to be the one to deliver them.

i would agree with that. however it is in the governments interest for expressway to take up as much of the slack as possible as the government don't really want to pay for public transport (or any services to be frank)

hmmm wrote: »

If a service is required, the government will put it out to tender and subsidise it if needed.

they may not. it's not something one should simply bank on happening.

hmmm wrote: »

It doesn't matter who is providing it - private or public.

it actually might do as private operators aren't going to tolerate having subsidy upped and cut on a whim whenever the government feels like it, meaning potential for route cuts rather then the government simply paying up.

hmmm wrote: »

We had a pretty poor service back in the days when we were reliant on the goodwill of CIE, private operators have brought in most of the innovations in the market.

what innovations have been brought in

Graham

end of the road wrote: »

what innovations have been brought in

A reasonable cost base is probably the most game changing innovation ever in an Irish public transport context.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

It's patently clear the problems are with the Expressway arm of the business.

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Is it? That's very hard to believe and the RTÉ article I'm reading on it does not single out Expressway.

Latest bulletin front RTE..

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0111/844179-bus-eireann/

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eeguy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's more of a legacy issue than an overpayment issue.

BE drivers could be working 30 years in the job, getting incremental wage increases.

A new private operator comes in, pays new staff a starting wage, undercuts BE by a huge margin and dominates the route. After a few years they're forced to increase fares and end up in the same place.

I don't know for a fact, but I imaging Matthews Coaches (Dundalk-Dublin) route is going this way. 10 years ago it was €10 return, now it's €15.
They have a modern fleet and LEAP fares have skewed prices slightly, but I'd imagine wage increases have also played a part.

westcoast66

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

Latest bulletin front RTE..

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0111/844179-bus-eireann/

However, the consultants also warn that redundancy costs could potentially top €85m, with some senior employees in line for pay-offs of over €500,000.

Nice gig if you can get it....

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK

From Kilkenny to Dublin return:

Bus Eireann €25.38 (it is 25 something, and around 38 cent)
Dublin coach €30
Kavanaghs €30

biko

Large cities already have good connection points. We must make sure small towns and villages are not cut off from bus services.

Koptain Liverpool

Some argue that it doesn't matter if a public or private operator runs intercity services. My argument would be that for a private company profitability always comes first.

Can we really trust private bus operators to continue to run to all current towns and cities even if some routes are very unprofitable?

If strict legislation was put in place to ensure that private operators met certain conditions in relation to routes and timetables then I would be more inclined to agree that full privatization could work. I don't see this happening though.

Failing that I'd prefer to have the intercity bus network operated publicly.

FionnK86

RobertKK wrote: »

From Kilkenny to Dublin return:

Bus Eireann €25.38 (it is 25 something, and around 38 cent)
Dublin coach €30
Kavanaghs €30

RobertKK,

Dublin Coach is €20 not €30 for a return ticket from Kilkenny to Dublin.



Source: http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php

Anita Blow

An intercity network is essential so if needs be, increase the subvention. But any additional taxpayer funds provided should be coupled to cost-cutting measures such as employee numbers/remuneration. The fact that only a couple of months ago BE bus drivers were looking for a pay increase when their employer is haemorrhaging money shows just how pie-in-the-sky their demands are.

marvin80

RobertKK wrote: »

From Kilkenny to Dublin return:

Bus Eireann €25.38 (it is 25 something, and around 38 cent)
Dublin coach €30
Kavanaghs €30

I got a Kavanaghs bus from Dublin to Clonmel a few weeks ago return - €20 so I'd presume to Kilkenny it's a little cheaper again.

Billy86

Transport in Ireland would be so, so much better if Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus ceased to exist ASAP and were replaced by private operators.

Vic_08

FionnK86 wrote: »

RobertKK,

Dublin Coach is €20 not €30 for a return ticket from Kilkenny to Dublin.



Source: http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php

...And Bus Eireann are €10 single and €16.50 return not 25.38

Total fares fail RobertKK

Pablo Escobar

marvin80 wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

From Kilkenny to Dublin return:

Bus Eireann €25.38 (it is 25 something, and around 38 cent)
Dublin coach €30
Kavanaghs €30

I got a Kavanaghs bus from Dublin to Clonmel a few weeks ago return - €20 so I'd presume to Kilkenny it's a little cheaper again.

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

Pablo Escobar

marvin80 wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

From Kilkenny to Dublin return:

Bus Eireann €25.38 (it is 25 something, and around 38 cent)
Dublin coach €30
Kavanaghs €30

I got a Kavanaghs bus from Dublin to Clonmel a few weeks ago return - €20 so I'd presume to Kilkenny it's a little cheaper again.

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

Nermal

biko wrote: »

Large cities already have good connection points. We must make sure small towns and villages are not cut off from bus services.

Why?

_Kaiser_

Billy86 wrote: »

Transport in Ireland would be so, so much better if Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus ceased to exist ASAP and were replaced by private operators.

While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of either company, I recognise that they (or someone at least) have a valuable place on routes where there's not much profit to be had.

It's all very well to talk about private companies being better, but that's only so long as there's money to be made. As long as there's enough money there'll also be competition which drives prices down and encourages better service - all good for the user

However on a quieter, more isolated route leaving it to private operators may result in no service at all or hugely expensive to the user.

In short, there's a place for both private AND public/subsidised services in the market.

end of the road

Graham wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

that isn't an innovation as for all we know all operators have that.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the thing is that bus eireann are a lot bigger company with a lot more staff and routes, many staff have been working a long time as well. so it's easy for that average to exist over all. realistically they're is no comparison here as both companies are very different.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the show me the money mentality exists in many transport companies public and private. however nobody expects 60k for driving a bus.

Anita Blow wrote: »

An intercity network is essential so if needs be, increase the subvention. But any additional taxpayer funds provided should be coupled to cost-cutting measures such as employee numbers/remuneration. The fact that only a couple of months ago BE bus drivers were looking for a pay increase when their employer is haemorrhaging money shows just how pie-in-the-sky their demands are.

cutting employee numbers means less employees meaning more reliance on overtime meaning if things go wrong things suffer. cutting remuneration can only go so far before you cause good staff to leave.

Billy86 wrote: »

Transport in Ireland would be so, so much better if Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus ceased to exist ASAP and were replaced by private operators.

no it wouldn't. not long term anyway.

Nermal wrote: »

Why?

to releave congestion and insure access to employment and other necessary services, benefiting the economy and one's well being.

Koptain Liverpool

Nermal wrote: »

Why?

Because many people live in small towns and villages

Nermal

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

Because many people live in small towns and villages

So? Why shouldn't they pay the full cost of providing a service to them?

hmmm

Koptain Liverpool wrote: »

My argument would be that for a private company profitability always comes first.

Failing that I'd prefer to have the intercity bus network operated publicly.

That argument is trotted out repeatedly, as if the selfless employees of the public service company are above such grubby matters as profit. Public companies may not be run for profit, but neither are they run strictly to benefit the public - in many cases, a valid argument is made that the priority is the comfort of the staff, with the public a distant second.

At least with private operators, and competition, the public gets a choice as to the type of service they want. And unfortunately for Expressway, it appears that choice has not gone their way - so I don't see why the solution here is to force people to use this service, when they've clearly expressed an interest in using the alternative.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I was travelling behind a JJ Kavanagh & Sons coach recently and noticed that "Est 1919" was written on the back.

This family have been operating a private transport company profitably for nearly 100 years. If they can do it, why can't the State?

Vic_08

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Those figures are just overall wage bill divided by number of employees. The likes of JJK will have a lot of part-timers which pulls the average way down. There is no way they are paying 25k before tax to full time drivers.

The main problem in BE and CIE in general is the amount of managers and other non revenue earning staff on massive wages.

A wage for a driver on 39 hours with all payments except Sunday on the top scale (5 years service) is around 36k before tax. Most drivers will be getting substantial overtime, even those who don't want it as the hours can be very long, so 40-42k would be my estimate on average pay per driver. It requires a hell of a lot of people to be earning big wages to pull the average to 52k.

westcoast66

I don't think this will happen. Can anyone remember the last time employees of an Irish semi state were made redundant?

eeguy

Vic_08 wrote: »

Most drivers will be getting substantial overtime, even those who don't want it as the hours can be very long, so 40-42k would be my estimate on average pay per driver. It requires a hell of a lot of people to be earning big wages to pull the average to 52k.

The Public Sector has never heard of the concept of Lean Management.

You can be guaranteed that a few pieces of software could massively overhaul the system and cut plenty of fat.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

So? Why shouldn't they pay the full cost of providing a service to them?

they do. it's called tax.

hmmm wrote: »

At least with private operators, and competition, the public gets a choice as to the type of service they want.

only where it is viable and profitable. where it isn't then regardless of who operates it they're will be no choice. so private operators wouldn't bring anything to the PSO services as the NTA would be regulating absolutely everything anyway.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was travelling behind a JJ Kavanagh & Sons coach recently and noticed that "Est 1919" was written on the back.

This family have been operating a private transport company profitably for nearly 100 years. If they can do it, why can't the State?

because the state has to operate to almost everywhere regardless of whether it is profitable or loss making. the private operators don't.

westcoast66 wrote: »

I don't think this will happen. Can anyone remember the last time employees of an Irish semi state were made redundant?

not exact years dates and times no, but plenty of staff have been made redundant from the public service and semi-state sector

Nermal

end of the road wrote: »

they do. it's called tax.

No they don't, they (like everyone outside of Dublin & Cork) are net recipients of government spending. Why shouldn't they pay what it actually costs to provide a bus service to them?

TrustedApple

Give you a idea of bus prices for me.

30 euro return on the air couch from Cork To Dublin Airport.

When i wont to go home to the sticks a town on the main express way route with Bus Eireann its 28 euros for a journey that is 80KM up and 80KM down.

I still don't get how its more or less cheaper to get to Dublin then my home town.

starlit

Its a shame really I find it so handy when not driving especially for longer journeys or if I didn't feel like a long drive. Can relax and sleep on the bus. I can't see why they just cut down on the amount of services rather than get rid of them completely.

People who cannot drive or can't afford a car, the elderly and those living in rural areas are going to be very put out by it. It was fantastic as a service during the years I learnt to drive and as a student going to college. It helped me get to know my way around a town/city not just by driving based on observation.

I know there is the possibility of private operators. Bus Eireann is great to link between connecting buses whereas you are under more pressure to make a bus/train connect.

For those in the South of the Country be a lot harder to get to Dublin and to the other cities and have to become depended on the trains more for longer journeys. They are handy but there are times they are jam packed at least a bus you just wait for the next one!

On Trains I sometimes can't get a seat at busy times and only so many services connect between Tralee, Charleville, Limerick and Mallow to go to the cities. There is no connecting train for those coming from Tralee/Killarney to Limerick direct except a bus! If to get a train they have to go backwards by train via county Cork and change along the line after having come down by Mallow and then onto Limerick Junction! Its crazy! Its enough to do that to go to Cork/Dublin! It means they have only the option to go on a private bus or drive!

eeguy

TrustedApple wrote: »

I still don't get how its more or less cheaper to get to Dublin then my home town.

Because its cheaper to run a full bus than an empty bus.

TrustedApple

eeguy wrote: »

Because its cheaper to run a full bus than an empty bus.

And that bus in question i get is on the main Dublin Route and is always full as well and sometimes has 2 full buses in the evening time.

So i don't know ha

RGDATA!

Laura Thoughtless Purple wrote: »

It's immaterial where I live, but it's not a major regional town. The thread in about inter city is it not? And private operators cover inter city very well. And, yes, they most certainly offer late night runs that include the airport.

Not where I live they don't, I'd say that was the point the first poster was making. Easy to say "meh" when it doesn't effect you.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

No they don't, they (like everyone outside of Dublin & Cork) are net recipients of government spending.

yes they do, it's called tax. everyone is a net recipient of something somewhere, that's life.

Nermal wrote: »

Why shouldn't they pay what it actually costs to provide a bus service to them?

because it's not cost effective and would mean people being unable to afford to use the services meaning the economy loses. therefore it's our job to subsidize vital services that benefit the country economically and socially, which these do as they bring people to employment or get them out spending in the nearest local economy.

RobertKK

FionnK86 wrote: »

RobertKK,

Dublin Coach is €20 not €30 for a return ticket from Kilkenny to Dublin.



Source: http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M9-waterford-kilkenny-dublin-bus.php

You are right, I was going to the airport, which makes it €15 each way.
Bus Eireann were cheaper.

RobertKK

marvin80 wrote: »

I got a Kavanaghs bus from Dublin to Clonmel a few weeks ago return - €20 so I'd presume to Kilkenny it's a little cheaper again.

Vic_08 wrote: »

...And Bus Eireann are €10 single and €16.50 return not 25.38

Total fares fail RobertKK

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

And BE usually comes in between €15-€19 depending on when you book. I'm not sure where Robert got his info from.

I should have said Dublin airport.