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Dylann Roof Sentenced to Death

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    #92
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    And when he is dead will we all be satisfied? Will we be safer?

    The death penalty is just a sop to satiate public outrage and one that helps distract from the real issue, systemic racism and gun violence in the United States. Don't think about a system that allowed this to happen think about how we got that bad guy. We gottem good.


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    #93
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    learn_more wrote: »
    What about Sadam Hussein or Osama bin Laden ? Would those executions go against your principles too ?

    Yes


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    #94
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ah the term 'scumbag' is an easy term to throw around, you ll find most criminals suffering from a very complex set of issues, as a previous poster said, things such as autism are a very common issue with criminals, amongst other complex problems such as mental health issues. have a chat with some criminals and with those that work with them, its a very interesting subject matter, very complex though, with no real solutions at times


    and yet not everybody with mental health issues is a criminal. funny that.


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    #95
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    and yet not everybody with mental health issues is a criminal. funny that.

    theres nothing funny about mental health issues, the question is, why dont some people with mental health issues never commit crimes and some do? not an easy question to answer


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    #96
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    or some people are just scumbags who place no value on the lives of a group of people because of their skin colour. I dont see why that is so hard to understand.

    With a bit of luck the federal government will execute this guy as quickly as they executed McVeigh.

    why? by murdering him the federal government would be admitting to condoning his actions. therefore on that basis all attempts to stop the murder must be dragged out as long as possible. even if he dies in prison before they can cary out the murder then so be it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #97
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    end of the road wrote: »
    why? by murdering him the federal government would be admitting to condoning his actions. therefore on that basis all attempts to stop the murder must be dragged out as long as possible. even if he dies in prison before they can cary out the murder then so be it.

    not this sh*t again. you drag it out every time the death penalty is mentioned.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thread getting completely thrown off with the mental health stuff.

    He killed 9 people. The issue of his competency was examined, he was deemed competent. He himself has never claimed that he suffered any condition that prevented him knowing the nature and effect of his crime. He said he did it.

    Sheesh, even where the man himself says "I did it" and his mental health is assessed, we have some saying "well maybe he was sick, because well maybe". He was a white supremacist. They've been lynching and killing black people for quite a while now, and most do it because they very much want to, not because they suffer from some "well it seems so wrong that they must have some unspecified undiagnosed medical condition".


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    #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    a government reserving the right to use force on a killer of innocent citizens is in no way lowering itself to the same level of the killer. that is a ridiculous false equivalent.


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    #100
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Deleted User wrote: »
    a government reserving the right to use force on a killer of innocent citizens is in no way lowering itself to the same level of the killer. that is a ridiculous false equivalent.

    I don't think they are the same, but it does devalue human life and I've read plenty of evidence that shows the death penalty doesn't prevent murders.


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    #101
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The only way the death penalty would make sense is if execution was carried out very soon after the verdict thereby saving money on incarnation and having swift justice.

    But you can't do that on account of appeals etc and the danger of the verdict being ruled unsafe or overturned.


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    #102
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Deleted User wrote: »
    a government reserving the right to use force on a killer of innocent citizens is in no way lowering itself to the same level of the killer. that is a ridiculous false equivalent.

    oh it is . the death penalty is a form of condoning the crime it is implemented for. it means the government condone murder. if they didn't then they wouldn't murder people in revenge for murdering.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it's fairly clear it has limited deterrent value.

    I kinda think the perpetrators of certain crimes simply deserve it, and it's a waste of money to jail them for life, care for them when they get sick etc.

    I'm not a huge advocate of the death penalty, and the expense angle is minimised because of the long appeals and waiting time. The absence of the death penalty doesn't bother me, but in cases like this I think throw the switch and get on with it.


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    #104
    Parchment
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭Parchment


    I can never agree with the death penalty as it makes the state hypocritical - you killed so we will kill you.

    I do understand the arguments for the costs of keeping a prisoner alive vs all the costs associated with legal wranglings/execution but its actually more expensive to put them to death.


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    #105
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    end of the road wrote: »
    why? by murdering him the federal government would be admitting to condoning his actions. therefore on that basis all attempts to stop the murder must be dragged out as long as possible. even if he dies in prison before they can cary out the murder then so be it.
    end of the road wrote: »
    oh it is . the death penalty is a form of condoning the crime it is implemented for. it means the government condone murder. if they didn't then they wouldn't murder people in revenge for murdering.


    repeating something does not make it true. you seem to be unable to differentiate between murder and killing.


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    #106
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    And when he is dead will we all be satisfied? Will we be safer?

    The death penalty is just a sop to satiate public outrage and one that helps distract from the real issue, systemic racism and gun violence in the United States. Don't think about a system that allowed this to happen think about how we got that bad guy. We gottem good.

    Systemic racism like affirmative action instead of holding everybody to an equal standard. You're very right, for too long the left in the States have treated black people like children. I find it utterly disgusting.

    Plying poor black communities with welfare to secure votes instead of trying to create jobs and improve their school districts. It's a vicious circle, very few born into these ghettos manage to escape it.


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    #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    end of the road wrote: »
    oh it is . the death penalty is a form of condoning the crime it is implemented for. it means the government condone murder. if they didn't then they wouldn't murder people in revenge for murdering.

    you have just written a four sentence post that boils down to this:

    i agree with me. i agree with me. i agree with me. i agree with me.

    you havent in any way justified your position or offered a jot of content. but here, I'll try to move things along here.

    execution, killing and murder are three different words for a reason. do you know why this is?


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    #108
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    repeating something does not make it true. you seem to be unable to differentiate between murder and killing.

    i very much can. this isn't simply killing, it's premeditated murder by the state in revenge for murder.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    you have just written a four sentence post that boils down to this:

    i agree with me. i agree with me. i agree with me. i agree with me.

    you havent in any way justified your position or offered a jot of content. but here, I'll try to move things along here.

    execution, killing and murder are three different words for a reason. do you know why this is?

    so the first and last 1 can be justified on the basis of whatever one feels like. execution is premeditated murder on the basis that it is planned and deliberate. simply killing someone can happen for many reasons such as an accident.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #109
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,353 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    end of the road wrote: »
    i very much can. this isn't simply killing, it's premeditated murder by the state in revenge for murder.



    so the first and last 1 can be justified on the basis of whatever one feels like. execution is premeditated murder on the basis that it is planned and deliberate. simply killing someone can happen for many reasons such as an accident.


    so you cant differentiate between murder and killing. or at least you dont actually know what murder is. it is not enough that it is premeditated. it must also be unlawful. as an execution is carried out in accordance with the law it is not unlawful. it is really is quite simple. but continue to repeat the same nonsense as you always do.


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    #110
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,284 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    And when he is dead will we all be satisfied? Will we be safer?

    Got to admit, there's going to be very little chance of his re-offending afterwards.


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    #111
    Rezident
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Rezident


    Death penalty doesn't work - never has and never will. Has crime suddenly stopped in America since they started executing people?

    The death penalty is us, the good guys - supposedly - giving up. We quit. There's a bit of spite and malice in it too, revenge, an eye for an eye, that lark.

    You know people have been reformed? It can happen. I've seen it, and they are the most powerful witnesses against their own kind. And when it happens it is powerful, and important. A reformed character like that can make a much bigger impact on them, than we can.

    Lock him in a cell with nothing but pictures and videos of the grieving families of his victims. Crying their eyes out, devastated, gutted. Years later (or maybe sooner if he's bright) he will eventually start to see the light. It's human nature.


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    #112
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,458 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    I just feel that countries and states should not be killing people no matter what the circumstances.

    You should not punish killing with killing. This only makes you as bad as them.

    Modern society should rise above it and take a lead and take away their dignities, freedom and liberties thereby showing that what they did is not tolerated.

    Killing him will serve no purpose whatsoever.

    I am very happy that Ireland does not have the death sentence.


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    #113
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,071 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Systemic racism like affirmative action instead of holding everybody to an equal standard. You're very right, for too long the left in the States have treated black people like children. I find it utterly disgusting.

    Plying poor black communities with welfare to secure votes instead of trying to create jobs and improve their school districts. It's a vicious circle, very few born into these ghettos manage to escape it.

    been a hell of a long time that a left government has been in power in america, if ever
    Rezident wrote: »
    Death penalty doesn't work - never has and never will. Has crime suddenly stopped in America since they started executing people?

    The death penalty is us, the good guys - supposedly - giving up. We quit. There's a bit of spite and malice in it too, revenge, an eye for an eye, that lark.

    You know people have been reformed? It can happen. I've seen it, and they are the most powerful witnesses against their own kind. And when it happens it is powerful, and important. A reformed character like that can make a much bigger impact on them, than we can.

    Lock him in a cell with nothing but pictures and videos of the grieving families of his victims. Crying their eyes out, devastated, gutted. Years later (or maybe sooner if he's bright) he will eventually start to see the light. It's human nature.

    id agree with the idea that the death penalty doesnt work but id disagree with your potential method of rehabilitation, which strangely sounds like torture.


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    #114
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    He wants the death penalty. It's no punishment for him. Apparently his victims' families don't want him executed. It's no vindication for them. He's very young, maybe his views will change and he'll feel appropriate remorse for what he's done, seems like that could be a punishment for him and he could even do some good.

    I see no point in killing him and several good reasons not to.


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    #115
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,275 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    Internet hard man right here.

    How so.

    Because I think someone who takes innocent lives on purpose and shows no remorse deserves to have a severely harsh punishment.


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    #116
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Got to admit, there's going to be very little chance of his re-offending afterwards.

    There are a number of other ways to achieve that end, but incapacitating one individual is virtually meaningless in terms of achieving any greater security for the population. He isn't some fictional mega-monster, slaying him like he were doesn't save the village.


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    #117
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think it's fairly clear it has limited deterrent value.

    I kinda think the perpetrators of certain crimes simply deserve it, and it's a waste of money to jail them for life, care for them when they get sick etc.

    I'm not a huge advocate of the death penalty, and the expense angle is minimised because of the long appeals and waiting time. The absence of the death penalty doesn't bother me, but in cases like this I think throw the switch and get on with it.

    I'm sure the exact same sentiments were popular on conviction of the Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, etc. And had capital punishment been available they would all be long dead by now also.

    Personally I couldn't give a flying what happens to this prick, considering he seems to want to be executed I'd probably opt for a lifetime of misery in the worst sh!thole the US correctional system has to offer as the most fitting punishment.

    The question of death sentences is easy when the likes of Roof are concerned but how many innocent people is it OK to execute as a result? The list of people sentenced to death subsequently found innocent isn't a short list.


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    #118
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Rezident wrote: »
    Death penalty doesn't work - never has and never will. Has crime suddenly stopped in America since they started executing people?

    Crime is not going to suddenly stop as you put it.

    The question is would crime be greater, lesser or the same in the alternative two scenarios where you have the death penalty or when it's not there.
    You would have to show america without the death penalty and show no difference in crime levels in order to make the point you're trying to make.

    Since that's not possible as USA isn't a lab experiment we can tinker with then you can't demonstate this.

    The closest you can get is to compare two jurisdictions one with and one without the death penalty. Then compare their crime rates. This is complicated by the many other variable factors that feed into crime in each country that have nothing to do with judicial penalties.

    For the record I'm undecided on the issue of death penalties. I'm just taking issue with the logic of the above argument.


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    #119
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Rezident wrote: »
    Death penalty doesn't work - never has and never will. Has crime suddenly stopped in America since they started executing people?

    The death penalty is us, the good guys - supposedly - giving up. We quit. There's a bit of spite and malice in it too, revenge, an eye for an eye, that lark.

    You know people have been reformed? It can happen. I've seen it, and they are the most powerful witnesses against their own kind. And when it happens it is powerful, and important. A reformed character like that can make a much bigger impact on them, than we can.

    Lock him in a cell with nothing but pictures and videos of the grieving families of his victims. Crying their eyes out, devastated, gutted. Years later (or maybe sooner if he's bright) he will eventually start to see the light. It's human nature.
    Death penalty doesn't work - never has and never will.

    Obviously, in this case, there was no deterrent. So the death penalty is not used solely as a deterrent, it's used as a practical best solution to a terrible problem.

    I made it clear in my OP that it is not, or should it be, a matter of gratifying anyone's sense of malice who has nothing to do with the case whatsoever. I'd find it acceptable in respect of the victims families though.

    He may reform yes, which would take a very long time I'm sure, but so what? He'll still spend the entirety of his life in prison, so I don't see any value in that at all. His life is still effectively pointless. I guess if he did reform and spoke out, his white supremacists supporters would consider him a traitor rather than change themselves. Also, I don't think we need to see him reform, as if to prove that the he was wrong and we were right.


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    #120
    Galway_Old_Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 249 ✭✭Galway_Old_Man


    learn_more wrote: »
    He may reform yes, which would take a very long time I'm sure, but so what? He'll still spend the entirety of his life in prison, so I don't see any value in that at all.

    Every human life has value. Weighing up who should, and should not, live is not up to us and it's arrogance of the highest order to attempt to do it.


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    #121
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Galway_Old_Man wrote: »
    Every human life has value. Weighing up who should, and should not, live is not up to us and it's arrogance of the highest order to attempt to do it.

    I think you misinterpreted what I meant. I wasn't talking about the value of his life per se, I was talking about the social merits of incarcerating him forever vs the death penalty, both from his perspective and societies.

    You can say a life in prison, possibly in solitary confinement, forever, is still worth something but I'd disagree at least and say such a life is not as worthwhile as one such as yours or mine.

    I can't help but point out that Dylann did weight up who should, and should not, live.


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