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Opt-Out Organ Donation

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    #62
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Completely against an opt-out system.
    It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
    Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.


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    #63
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,226 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    I can see a lot of issues with an opt out system.

    Family will still object and I can't see a situation happening where a medical team wheel a patient off to take their organs if the family are kicking up a fuss.


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    #64
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,226 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Ps I totally disagree that family should have a say that over rules the wishes of the patient.

    Currently even if I'm on the register, the wishes of the next of kin will take priority.


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    #65
    Glenster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Just make it illegal for a private citizen to own a corpse.

    Problem solved.


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    #66
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Completely against an opt-out system.
    It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
    Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

    It's not making a decision for you. It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you. It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.


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    #67
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.


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    #68
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.

    :rolleyes:

    I take it that you won't go to a doctor or hospital when you are unwell and will not under any circumstance agree to be a transplant recipient if it is the only way to save your life?


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    #69
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It's not making a decision for you. It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you. It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.

    Seems like its making default ownership for your body parts, I would also think that it could also change how folk are treated medically if not careful and legislated for properly.


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    #70
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    How about not playing god? If it's someone's time to die so be it.

    Ah, would you stop ffs. If you break your arm do you get it sorted or leave it broken and think "well it was meant to be! Best leave it alone." :rolleyes:


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    #71
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Seems like its making default ownership for your body parts, I would also think that it could also change how folk are treated medically if not careful and legislated for properly.

    No, its assuming by default that you would want to donate your organs if possible to enable someone else to live. If you do not then you simply tell them so. At no point do they "own" your organs.

    Why do you think the treatment of people by medical professionals would change? You think those who currently verbalise their desire for organ donation are treated less carefully or with more reckless abandon?

    If not an opt-out system I would also be fine with a system where everyone is at least asked the question and has to provide an answer that is recorded. Too often it is simply not thought about/discussed by the deceased person, their family doesn't know what to do and defaults to saying no as they're upset.


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    #72
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It's not making a decision for you.
    It's changing the view on what your default position should be assumed to be in absence of any definitive statement by you.
    It's no more making the decision for you then the current set up.
    It is though, the state in this case is making the decision for me that I wish to donate my organs.
    As it is with the current system it's up to me to make that decision.


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    #73
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    I'm not anti-donation, I just don't want to give up mine. I'd rather stay while when I'm dead that be harvested. I'm not religious or anything like that, it's just a personal feeling.
    Why not? After all, you'll no longer be using them.
    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Completely against an opt-out system.
    It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
    Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.
    It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.

    Personally I am in favour of organ donation. I carry a donor card and have it marked on my driving licence. When I die they can take anything they want and give it to whoever needs it, and good luck to them.


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    #74
    maudgonner
    Registered Users Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    It is though, the state in this case is making the decision for me that I wish to donate my organs.
    As it is with the current system it's up to me to make that decision.


    Well, no actually. Under the current system it's up to your next of kin (and possibly the coroner) to make that decision. You have no binding authority on it at all.

    With the soft opt-out system the only thing that would change is the default position would be that you are willing to have your organs donated, rather than that you are not. It is still your 'decision', if you care enough to voice an opinion on the matter.
    Under a hard opt-out system it would remove your next of kin from the equation. It would actually give you more control over the situation, not less.


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    #75
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Completely against an opt-out system.
    It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me.
    Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

    I agree with the part about the "expense of personal freedoms" but then it's not really personal freedom if your next of kin is the ultimate decision maker anyway, so either way it's out of your hands.

    I'm in favour of OPT OUT, they can take anything that's left of me when I die!


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    #76
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    I take it that you won't go to a doctor or hospital when you are unwell and will not under any circumstance agree to be a transplant recipient if it is the only way to save your life?

    I'm playing devils advocate with the ones saying you should have no choice what happens your body once you die.


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    #77
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,017 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    freedominacup wrote:
    The process to opt out should require a serious amount of hassle and expense.

    I'd favour hard opt out but opting out should be easy. It's your body after all.

    We just need to get the conversation started so publicise the hell out of it and make it completely normal to talk about. If you can't articulate your reasons for not donating, then you should think longer.


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    #78
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    kylith wrote: »
    Why not? After all, you'll no longer be using them.


    It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.

    Personally I am in favour of organ donation. I carry a donor card and have it marked on my driving licence. When I die they can take anything they want and give it to whoever needs it, and good luck to them.

    That's your choice, mine is the opposite. Why should I have to opt-out of my body being harvested after death?? They should maybe have a register where people can opt in? That way there is no ambiguity about it.


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    #79
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I'd favour hard opt out but opting out should be easy. It's your body after all.

    We just need to get the conversation started so publicise the hell out of it and make it completely normal to talk about. If you can't articulate your reasons for not donating, then you should think longer.

    If you don't agree with me you have to think about it more. Jesus!!


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    #80
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,017 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    jackofalltrades wrote:
    Completely against an opt-out system. It's my body, the state can fúck off making decisions for me. Just like other opt-out laws, it seems to be about getting the "right result" at the expense of personal freedoms.

    It's still your body. It would take about as much time and effort to opt out as to write that post about op

    It would take a fraction of the interest you showed in that post to make sure you exercise your personal freedom and get the right result. Chronic laziness could get in the way of you getting the right result, but that's about all.


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    #81
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,017 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    weldoninhio wrote:
    If you don't agree with me you have to think about it more. Jesus!!

    Calm down. Thinking isn't compulsory


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    #82
    ShaShaBear
    Registered Users Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭ShaShaBear


    I'm glad to see some people have sympathy and understanding for next of kin and families that have made the excruciating decision not to donate a loved one's organs after death. My father died 6 years ago after several brain hemorrhages and we were veritably harassed by the spokespeople there to donate anything and everything we were willing to. My sister, only 14 at the time, begged that they would not take his eyes or his heart - that she wanted him to "go to heaven" with the memory of his love for us and what we looked like. It was a huge shock, and he was kept on life support for far longer than necessary while we came to a decision. Eventually, being told that he would be transported elsewhere for the surgery and that we could be waiting up to a week before we were issued with the emptied corpse was what made the decision for us. That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

    I've told my husband that if my death is natural or expected, that I wish to have all useful bits and bobs donated. If it is a shock death, especially if the kids are young, that he is to make the best call he can on how to minimise the trauma and suffering for my immediate family. There's not a lot I can give my husband and children when I die, so the decision on how to dispose of me can lie with them. If I were forced to "opt-in" or "opt-out" exclusively with no in-between, I'd be forced to opt-out to protect my loved ones.


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    #83
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    I'm glad to see some people have sympathy and understanding for next of kin and families that have made the excruciating decision not to donate a loved one's organs after death. My father died 6 years ago after several brain hemorrhages and we were veritably harassed by the spokespeople there to donate anything and everything we were willing to. My sister, only 14 at the time, begged that they would not take his eyes or his heart - that she wanted him to "go to heaven" with the memory of his love for us and what we looked like. It was a huge shock, and he was kept on life support for far longer than necessary while we came to a decision. Eventually, being told that he would be transported elsewhere for the surgery and that we could be waiting up to a week before we were issued with the emptied corpse was what made the decision for us. That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

    I've told my husband that if my death is natural or expected, that I wish to have all useful bits and bobs donated. If it is a shock death, especially if the kids are young, that he is to make the best call he can on how to minimise the trauma and suffering for my immediate family. There's not a lot I can give my husband and children when I die, so the decision on how to dispose of me can lie with them. If I were forced to "opt-in" or "opt-out" exclusively with no in-between, I'd be forced to opt-out to protect my loved ones.

    I don't think people lack sympathy, I think people are viewing it from the viewpoint of the many people who will die on waiting lists. I'm sorry to hear about your situation by the way, truly. Everyone's experience is different of organ donation but ultimately the opt out system puts the decision into the hands of the deceased before they die. I can understand that at the time it wasn't the right choice for your family, i can certainly understand that if someone told me it would take up to a week to have the body returned I too would be very hesitant. Other families like my own have had very positive experiences, it is very circumstantial but after a shock death is certainly not the time to have to think about things like organ donation, which is where the opt out system could play such a vital role in removing the need to make that decision from the family.

    An opt out system would however still allow the person to opt out completely of organ donation, so it wouldn't be compulsory.


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    #84
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    That and a concerned nurse coming to us on the QT to tell us that, if we consented, they would and have taken everything that was useful, despite our wishes.

    Well then she lied to you.

    I may be wrong on this, but my understanding is that unfortunately organ donation is not generally possible in scenarios where the death is natural or expected. It is precisely the shock deaths that result in the possibility. The next of kin having to make a decision on whether or not to donate organs in this scenario is precisely the grim situation that this is trying to avoid. Instead it is about honouring the wishes of the deceased.


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    #85
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    That's your choice, mine is the opposite. Why should I have to opt-out of my body being harvested after death?? They should maybe have a register where people can opt in? That way there is no ambiguity about it.

    There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

    But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?


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    #86
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,017 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kylith wrote:
    But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

    'I just don't want to' is an answer. It's just a really poorly thought out one.

    If someone couldn't be bothered to put the thought into why they would or wouldn't want to donate organs, they probably couldn't be bothered to opt in or out either.


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    #87
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    kylith wrote: »
    There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

    An opt-in register wouldn't have any legal standing in Ireland at present as far as I understand. It is entirely up to your next of kin even if they carve you up or donate your body to science against your expressly conveyed wishes.


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    #88
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    kylith wrote: »
    It's not making any decisions for you, it's acting on the assumption that unless you say otherwise you'd like to help save other people's lives and if that's the "right result" then I don't see a problem with that.
    But why is there the need for assumptions?
    If people have made the decision to donate their organs, then all they have to do is to tick the box on their drivers licence or get a donor card.
    That's a fairly easy thing to do.
    If they haven't done that then it's probably fair to say that they're either against it or haven't thought it through.
    All the opt-out system seems to do is to cynically take advantage of people's being busy/uninformed/having other things to do to get the kind of result that it wants.

    Would it not be better instead of relaying on this kind of ethically questionable practice to actually ask people what their intentions are?
    Have it as a Yes/No question on the application for a Drivers Licence/PPS number/Passport.
    Even go door to door and ask people face-to-face.


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    #89
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    kylith wrote: »
    There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky :rolleyes:) or incinerated.

    But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

    The big issue folk have here is not that the don't want to donate but that people are advocating that the default assumption is that they will sign over their organs as if the state owns your body.

    What kind of regulation do we have in place to make sure everything is being done for those who are in a position to donate that all measures are exhausted to bring them back ect? This is Ireland after all where the medical system time and time again has shown itself to be not always so morale.

    When people don't even want to entertain that there is another viewpoint other than people are dying and we need to harvest right now then what do they expect. If you want to educate and get more people on board then so be it but as usual we get condescension and looking down on people.


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    #90
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    All the opt-out system seems to do is to cynically take advantage of people's being busy/uninformed/having other things to do to get the kind of result that it wants.

    At the end of the day the decision should rest with the organ donor, it is not always necessarily the case that the next of kin would know someone's wishes which is how it currently works.

    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Would it not be better instead of relaying on this kind of ethically questionable practice to actually ask people what their intentions are?
    Have it as a Yes/No question on the application for a Drivers Licence/PPS number/Passport.
    Even go door to door and ask people face-to-face.

    I don't think it's ethically questionable? You have the option to opt out. It's like changing your sex, when you are born you are assigned a certain sex throughout the course of your life if you so wish you can change that sex. I think it just normalises organ donation, makes it a part of our existence.


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    #91
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    kylith wrote: »
    There is an opt-in register but between people not bothering to put their names on it and people thinking that donating their organs is somehow icky (again, after they're dead, when you don't have the capacity to be icked-out by anything) there are people dying or spending years on waiting lists and dialysis, or blind while thousands upon thousands of perfectly good organs are put in the ground to rot (like that's not icky ) or incinerated.

    But that doesn't answer my question WHY do you not want your organs donated? 'I just don't want to', isn't an answer. After all, if you were walking past a lake and saw someone drowning and you could throw them a rope you would, wouldn't you?

    actually, i don't want to is an answer and a perfectly legitimate one at that. nobody has to explain why they want to or don't want to donate their organs. it's their business and their decisian will be respected.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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