Increase of bio in diesel

pa990

Can anyone explain Double Ticketing, in terms of bio being added to petrol /diesel

heroics

CJhaughey wrote: »

Is this the double ticketing arrangement referred to earlier?

That's what I thought. I am waiting for them to email me back

pa990

The future is looking sludgey

https://m.carlist.my/news/bmw-shows-ill-effects-b10-biodiesel-cautions-against-october-introduction/14318



BMW explained that the fatty acid methyl esther (FAME) content in biodiesel boils at high temperatures and gets into the engine oil, which then results in the thinning of motor oil. This in turn leads to oil sludge, reduced lubricity with the risk of severe engine damage.


And we will be paying more at the pump for this fantastic new and disimproved fuel.

An extra €1 per fill, for more shyte.. give me the option of B0 , or E0




- the engines tested all had problems of corrosion in the fuel system, oil sludge, lacquer in fuel injectors, fuel filter plugging, engine oil dilution and degradation, as well as foreign matter adhering on the suction control valve after long parking periods, which in-turn led to idling trouble.

Del2005

CJhaughey wrote: »

Is this the double ticketing arrangement referred to earlier?

So it looks like we'll still be getting the proper diesel but paying more because they use a scam to say that it's got more bio content, but it really doesn't, so they can increase the price as its good for the environment!

The cheap CO2 tax is starting to bite so new revenue streams are needed. I can't wait to see what "environmental charges" they'll have to stick on EV's when they start really hitting tax returns.

pa990

Del2005 wrote: »

So it looks like we'll still be getting the proper diesel but paying more because they use a scam to say that it's got more bio content, .......

Again here's a quote from the Topaz email

Due to this legislative change, from January 1st 2017 we will be modifying our pricing formulae as follows:

Petrol Formula :92% Fossil (Petrol) + 8% Renewable
Diesel Formula : 92% Fossil (Diesel) + 8% Renewable


8%... They clearly state 8%

BorneTobyWilde

Probably put road tax of 6k on EV'S eventually .

BorneTobyWilde

pa990 wrote: »

The future is looking sludgey

https://m.carlist.my/news/bmw-shows-ill-effects-b10-biodiesel-cautions-against-october-introduction/14318



BMW explained that the fatty acid methyl esther (FAME) content in biodiesel boils at high temperatures and gets into the engine oil, which then results in the thinning of motor oil. This in turn leads to oil sludge, reduced lubricity with the risk of severe engine damage.


And we will be paying more at the pump for this fantastic new and disimproved fuel.

An extra €1 per fill, for more shyte.. give me the option of B0 , or E0




- the engines tested all had problems of corrosion in the fuel system, oil sludge, lacquer in fuel injectors, fuel filter plugging, engine oil dilution and degradation, as well as foreign matter adhering on the suction control valve after long parking periods, which in-turn led to idling trouble.

Sound like bull to me.
Other reports would suggest b100 running in an engine cleans it, and results in far less carbon deposits on piston tops and valves so on.
You would need worn out rings for any fuel to end up in engine oil.

pa990

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sound like bull to me.
Other reports would suggest b100 running in an engine cleans it, and results in far less carbon deposits on piston tops and valves so on.
You would need worn out rings for any fuel to end up in engine oil.

But that would be on an engine designed to run on B100

E85 in a normal petrol engine worked.. But gave less mpg, and could corrode pipe work and seals.

Paying more at the pump for less mpg, what a bargain

Del2005

pa990 wrote: »

Again here's a quote from the Topaz email

Due to this legislative change, from January 1st 2017 we will be modifying our pricing formulae as follows:

Petrol Formula :92% Fossil (Petrol) + 8% Renewable
Diesel Formula : 92% Fossil (Diesel) + 8% Renewable


8%... They clearly state 8%

They clearly state 8% but other companies have said that they will get to it by double ticketing.

So is the Irish government is going to go it alone and push a new standard for diesel vehicles for our tiny market along with retrofitting the current fleet, since most current ones only run on 7%, or they are going to increase taxes on the EU specified 7% diesel by stealth.

pa990

Del2005 wrote: »

They clearly state 8% but other companies have said that they will get to it by double ticketing.

So is the Irish government is going to go it alone and push a new standard for diesel vehicles for our tiny market along with retrofitting the current fleet, since most current ones only run on 7%, or they are going to increase taxes on the EU specified 7% diesel by stealth.

That's why I'll be moving to a supplier that double tickets.... if someone can explain what that is.

All I know is that,, after years of topaz/Esso, I'll be I have changed to Maxol...

Phil.x

This government would sell it soul to keep the Germans happy.

Riva10

Phil.x wrote: »

This government would sell it soul to keep the Germans happy.

Tooooooo late. They have already sold their souls and are now providing their own lube at our expense

pa990

France has also introduced B8 diesel

http://www.acea.be/news/article/joint-acea-fuelseurope-position-on-b8-diesel

"ACEA (representing the European auto-industry) and FuelsEurope (representing the European fuel refining and marketing industry) share common views on the French initiative - see attached. As a general statement, our industries do not support the French initiative on B8. In addition, ACEA notes that:

If France was to go ahead and introduce the B8 diesel fuel, all vehicle manufacturers that are members of ACEA could not guarantee that their vehicle warranties would be honoured if the vehicle was to use B8 and have any operational problems."

The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) represents the 15 Europe-based automobile manufacturers. ACEA’s members are BMW Group, DAF Trucks, Daimler, FIAT SpA, Ford of Europe, Hyundai Motor Europe, IVECO SpA, Jaguar Land Rover, Opel Group, PSA Peugeot Citroën, Renault Group, Toyota Motor Europe, Volkswagen Group, Volvo Cars, Volvo Group.

CJhaughey

My (possibly incorrect) reading of the double ticketing arrangement is that Biofuels that are made from sources other than foodcrops are allowed to be counted as double the standard biofuel rate.
So biofuel thats made from " material that can be considered to be a biodegradable
waste, residue, non­food cellulosic material, ligno­cellulosic material or algae are eligible for
two certificates per litre. "
So they will need to blend a certain component of biofuels derived from those materials into the standard biodiesel to make up the theoretical 8% which will still be 6% or whatever it is currently in real terms.

BorneTobyWilde

Every car that breaks down after a fill up will blame biodiesel.
Even if break down is a blown bulb or a puncture

gctest50

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Every car that breaks down after a fill up will blame biodiesel.
.............

You could meet that with :

" When was it serviced last ? Did it receive a software update ( from the manufacturer) during the last service ?"

" Is the software/ecu etc unmodified, running unmodified software from the manufacturer ? "

" Is the DPF still fitted ? "

vectra

I could answer all above 3 questions with a yes.

pa990

CJhaughey wrote: »

My (possibly incorrect) reading of the double ticketing arrangement is that Biofuels that are made from sources other than foodcrops are allowed to be counted as double the standard biofuel rate.
So biofuel thats made from " material that can be considered to be a biodegradable
waste, residue, non­food cellulosic material, ligno­cellulosic material or algae are eligible for
two certificates per litre. "
So they will need to blend a certain component of biofuels derived from those materials into the standard biodiesel to make up the theoretical 8% which will still be 6% or whatever it is currently in real terms.

So technically you could have a B100 diesel, that is really 50% proper diesel, and likewise, could we have 100% bio diesel that could be labelled as B200, due to this double ticketing technique.

demanufactured

What (if any) affect would this have on DPF's?

dr.fuzzenstein

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Probably put road tax of 6k on EV'S eventually .

Or they "suddenly" realise that the electricity comes from foul, polluting coal and peat fired power stations and whack a 30% "environmental" levy on electricity.

CJhaughey

pa990 wrote: »

So technically you could have a B100 diesel, that is really 50% proper diesel, and likewise, could we have 100% bio diesel that could be labelled as B200, due to this double ticketing technique.

Yes, thats my reading of it.
It would be prohibitively expensive though much as you can see with the jump in fuel prices already this year.

rsmike

pa990 wrote: »

Del2005 wrote: »

So it looks like we'll still be getting the proper diesel but paying more because they use a scam to say that it's got more bio content, .......

Again here's a quote from the Topaz email

Due to this legislative change, from January 1st 2017 we will be modifying our pricing formulae as follows:

Petrol Formula :92% Fossil (Petrol) + 8% Renewable
Diesel Formula : 92% Fossil (Diesel) + 8% Renewable


8%...  They clearly state 8%

What Topaz state clearly is that they will be will be modifying our pricing formulae
They also state the following in their letter ( which I also received) :
[font=arial, "helvetica neue", helvetica, sans-serif]The existing industry product specifications for petrol (EN228) and diesel (EN590) limits permittable biofuel percentages to 5% in petrol and 7% in diesel. In order to meet the 8% target set by the Government, Topaz will need to use a double ticketed blend of bio product in its fuels, and will be adjusting the pricing formula to facilitate such.[/font]
I also assumed on reading this letter initially that they were increasing biofuel content to 8% in petrol, however following reading this thread and replies from other Fuel companies it does appear that they are all (including Topaz) "fudging" the issue by "double ticketing", whatever that means exactly...............

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Riva10

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Price increase in Topaz Midleton by 5 cent per Ltr since Sunday. Double ticketing my a$$

September1

It seems that according to EN 228 maximum ethanol in petrol is only 5%, so that explains why price impact is higher as more double ticketing is required.

rsmike

Fred Swanson wrote: »

So nothing is actually changing with the fuel, just the price is increasing.

That is the way I am reading it at this stage, though what exactly a "double ticketed blend" is might help clarify for sure. The explanation posted by "The Boss", ....err,  CJhaughey, ;-) earlier seems like a possible explanation.

The complete lack of publicity around the whole thing also does seem to confirm that nothing (except the price) is actually changing.....................

Gazzmonkey

Filled up with same 40eur from same pump this morning (GreatGas) that I've been using for 4 years... seems to be no obvious difference to running operation.

On a side note... would 4% of the fancier renewable biodiesel with double certs = 8% of the older food stock biodiesel? Trying to get my head around double ticketing !!

grogi

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Filled up with same 40eur from same pump this morning (GreatGas) that I've been using for 4 years... seems to be no obvious difference to running operation.

On a side note... would 4% of the fancier renewable biodiesel with double certs = 8% of the older food stock biodiesel? Trying to get my head around double ticketing !!

To my understanding - yes.

rsmike

grogi wrote: »

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Filled up with same 40eur from same pump this morning (GreatGas) that I've been using for 4 years... seems to be no obvious difference to running operation.

On a side note... would 4% of the fancier renewable biodiesel with double certs = 8% of the older food stock biodiesel? Trying to get my head around double ticketing !!

To my understanding - yes.

Did a bit more research and this link confirms this, here is the key text:
Within the EU Renewable Energy Directive 2009/28/ EC (RED) the use of waste and residues is supported as a favourable alternative to traditional commodities-based feedstocks. In order to foster the use of such feedstocks, the RED allows mineral oil companies to blend only half of the biofuel into fossil fuel in order to reach their blending obligations if the respective biofuel was produced from waste (RED, Art.21). This incentive is widely known as double counting. The latest proposal from the EU Commission even asks for a change of this double counting into a fourfold counting.
Note the proposal to move to fourfold counting even!
BTW, interestingly, under FOI, you can view the submissions originally made by interested parties in Ireland ( e.g. Maxol, Whitegate Refinery, An Taisce etc.) here: Submissions to Government proposal
In classic political fashion this "double counting" seems to "kick the can down the road" on meeting our overall 10% target by 2020, i.e. this double counting makes it look like we are making progress to meeting our target, but come 2020, there will be shock and crisis that we have not met it at all.
The Whitegate Refinery submission is a good analysis of this fudge.

CJhaughey

What it means in practice is that prices will go up as the more expensive feedstock is utilised in the bio-blended fuel.
The actual amount in practice will stay the same.
Its bad stuff in most engines anyway and the result will be a good few older engines having problems that can't be traced back to the use of bio-blends which they were never designed to run on in the first instance.
And the economy will drop in petrols as the E-blended fuel doesn't provide the same Kj per litre as fossil petroleum.
Not to mention the problems with ethanol absorbing water from the atmosphere and damaging components which are well known at this point.