The seven deadly things we’re doing to trash the planet (and human life with it)

Grayson

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I find this article bloody terrifying. Why isn't it front page news?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/22/ice-melting-temperatures-forecast-for-arctic-midwinter

I don't eat that much meat anyway, but I'm going to try a few weeks without it in January, with the aim of giving it up altogether or cutting it down to a couple of times a week, which is realistically how often we all should be eating meat.
It won't make any difference I know but I'm feeling very guilty lately whenever I buy meat, especially red meat.

It is terrifying. Anyone who doesn't think so has their heads stuck in the sand. At this point I'm already thinking where would be the best places to live if the world turns to hell.

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

It is terrifying. Anyone who doesn't think so has their heads stuck in the sand. At this point I'm already thinking where would be the best places to live if the world turns to hell.

Any suggestions?

Hande hoche!

Widdershins wrote: »

Any suggestions?

New Zealand?

barrymanilow

Were rocketing towards disaster , the science on it is solid . Even if every human on Earth decided to cycle everywhere , never turn on a car ignition/engine and close all factories /power plants from tomorrow on we would still be screwed from methane from the beef industry and accelerating overpopulation . Its too late to apply the brakes .

Its very hard to get people to change their behavior and lifestyles in order to avert a disaster which they will not likely be around for . If you can imagine you were playing some kind of planet management simulation video game on your Pc . If your planet was Earth in its current state and your aim was to be successful in this game and have your planets people survive you would instantly change the diets of all the people on the planet to halt beef methane emissions and water wastage , reverse deforestation , drastically cut Co2 emissions and impose a strict one child population policy .

To propose severe and necessary action like that in the real world would be political suicide and also would never be tolerated by powerful lobby groups ,farming interests ,other vested interests , healy rae types etc . It's beyond humans as a species to do what needs to be done .

My prediction is that something really bad will have to happen first ;a massive food war , first world famine or drought and if we survive it then it will be a massive wake up call .

Merry Christmas

Widdershins

barrymanilow wrote: »

Were rocketing towards disaster , the science on it is solid . Even if every human on Earth decided to cycle everywhere , never turn on a car ignition/engine and close all factories /power plants from tomorrow on we would still be screwed from methane from the beef industry and accelerating overpopulation . Its too late to apply the brakes .

Its very hard to get people to change their behavior and lifestyles in order to avert a disaster which they will not likely be around for . If you can imagine you were playing some kind of planet management simulation video game on your Pc . If your planet was Earth in its current state and your aim was to be successful in this game and have your planets people survive you would instantly change the diets of all the people on the planet to halt beef methane emissions and water wastage , reverse deforestation , drastically cut Co2 emissions and impose a strict one child population policy .

To propose severe and necessary action like that in the real world would be political suicide and also would never be tolerated by powerful lobby groups ,farming interests ,other vested interests , healy rae types etc . It's beyond humans as a species to do what needs to be done .

My prediction is that something really bad will have to happen first ;a massive food war , first world famine or drought and if we survive it then it will be a massive wake up call .

Merry Christmas

I can't exert any influence on the powers that be but what I can do is be mindful of what I do, buy, use, eat and throw away in my daily life. If everyone tried to do the same how could it not help. I mightn't be able to avert armageddon in the form of an eventual climate disaster but if it means trashing the environment a bit less then it is still worth putting a bit of thought into it.

Dr Crayfish

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/27/cheetah-more-vulnerable-to-extinction-than-previously-thought

I always found Cheetahs to be the most beautiful of the big cats. I wonder if there will be any wild big cats in Africa by 2050 or so?

fr336

You just know if it all goes to **** the very people taking the piss out of "bleeding heart lefties" now would be front of the queue for killing anyone who got in the way of their precious survival in such a situation. It'd all be a full scale emergency then, oh yes.

Grayson

Widdershins wrote: »

Any suggestions?

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a36228/ballad-of-the-sad-climatologists-0815/

Denmark is the choice of one scientist. High enough not to be overwhelmed by rising tides and easy enough to get fresh water, has good renewables and is far enough away from the places that will be worst affected. He's already relocated his family.

I'd avoid big parts of the US. There's one scientist that's moving from Colorado. He says the forests are dying off and won't grow back. That'll lead to something called megafires until those forests are finally destroyed. There will be massive droughts across the center of the US that could last decades. That'll see millions of climate refugees from the centre of the country migrate to the coasts.

Ireland might not be that bad really. We really need to invest in smart renewable power. Someone a few pages back mentioned amazon echo and the HIVE. Having a smart grid is a massive step forward for us. Allow people to generate their own energy via wind and solar and pump it back into the grid. Allow the purchase of energy at cheap times (when there's wind) and store it in devices like the tesla home battery. Once you include the ability of smart homes to monitor and control the use of energy we could cut down our usage too.
Even electric cars are worth a look. I've been checking them out (I applied for a job that's near enough to where I live but would take hours on public transport It's north Kildare to Citywest. ).

If you have a smart home with a smart power grid you could charge it overnight for pennies and it wouldn't produce any CO2. They're even more reliable than petrol/diesel cars because they have less moving parts. The biggest drawback is the lack of fast charging stations throughout the country.

All of these are actually relatively cheap solutions. I say relatively because although it can cost a lot to make a home smart and energy efficient it's not a lot compared to the overall cost of the home.

I think I've digressed a bit from the original question but my main point is that there's a lot we can do as individuals.

Yourself isit

Of the seven deadly items there only soil erosion is that scary.

barrymanilow

Widdershins wrote: »

I can't exert any influence on the powers that be but what I can do is be mindful of what I do, buy, use, eat and throw away in my daily life. If everyone tried to do the same how could it not help. I mightn't be able to avert armageddon in the form of an eventual climate disaster but if it means trashing the environment a bit less then it is still worth putting a bit of thought into it.

It's futile .The concerned in the west are Fiddling away with organic beetroot and ecocampsites , meanwhile China lashes up coal plants at the pace of two per week and the amazon is chewed up another few thousand square K a month. I try to do my part too , mostly keeping my head down quietly and leading by example for my kids , mostly for the partly selfish reason that I want to feel less guilty If I'm around when the **** hits the fan . But I'm not deluded .Me cycling to work and taking my reusable coffee cup around with me won't halt enviromental Armageddon . It's comparable to using a thimble to empty water out of the Titanic as she's going under .

Dr Crayfish

barrymanilow wrote: »

It's futile .The concerned in the west are Fiddling away with organic beetroot and ecocampsites , meanwhile China lashes up coal plants at the pace of two per week and the amazon is chewed up another few thousand square K a month. I try to do my part too , mostly keeping my head down quietly and leading by example for my kids , mostly for the partly selfish reason that I want to feel less guilty If I'm around when the **** hits the fan . But I'm not deluded .Me cycling to work and taking my reusable coffee cup around with me won't halt enviromental Armageddon . It's comparable to using a thimble to empty water out of the Titanic as she's going under .

It's unfair to blame China just because they're worse polluters than the rest of us. They probably build these plants to fuel the industry required to produce all the absolute rubbish we have bought in the last couple of weeks for Christmas.
I think some kind of powerful spiritual movement that would encourage massive lifestyle changes is the only thing that could save us now, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

Yourself isit

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

It's unfair to blame China just because they're worse polluters than the rest of us. They probably build these plants to fuel the industry required to produce all the absolute rubbish we have bought in the last couple of weeks for Christmas.
I think some kind of powerful spiritual movement that would encourage massive lifestyle changes is the only thing that could save us now, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

You can't blame the west for both industrial production and consumption. The Chinese build and consume a lot themselves. Look at their effect on Australian mining. Or their concrete use.

Dr Crayfish

Yourself isit wrote: »

You can't blame the west for both industrial production and consumption. The Chinese build and consume a lot themselves. Look at their effect on Australian mining. Or their concrete use.

The Chinese seem to be able to get sh*t done when it needs to be done. I wouldn't be surprised if they're leading the way in introducing strict environmentally friendly measures sooner or later.

Yourself isit

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

The Chinese seem to be able to get sh*t done when it needs to be done. I wouldn't be surprised if they're leading the way in introducing strict environmentally friendly measures sooner or later.

I think that they might.

The good news on renewables, particularly solar and wind is prices are falling and efficiency increasing.

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a36228/ballad-of-the-sad-climatologists-0815/

Denmark is the choice of one scientist. High enough not to be overwhelmed by rising tides and easy enough to get fresh water, has good renewables and is far enough away from the places that will be worst affected. He's already relocated his family.

I'd avoid big parts of the US. There's one scientist that's moving from Colorado. He says the forests are dying off and won't grow back. That'll lead to something called megafires until those forests are finally destroyed. There will be massive droughts across the center of the US that could last decades. That'll see millions of climate refugees from the centre of the country migrate to the coasts.

Ireland might not be that bad really. We really need to invest in smart renewable power. Someone a few pages back mentioned amazon echo and the HIVE. Having a smart grid is a massive step forward for us. Allow people to generate their own energy via wind and solar and pump it back into the grid. Allow the purchase of energy at cheap times (when there's wind) and store it in devices like the tesla home battery. Once you include the ability of smart homes to monitor and control the use of energy we could cut down our usage too.
Even electric cars are worth a look. I've been checking them out (I applied for a job that's near enough to where I live but would take hours on public transport It's north Kildare to Citywest. ).

If you have a smart home with a smart power grid you could charge it overnight for pennies and it wouldn't produce any CO2. They're even more reliable than petrol/diesel cars because they have less moving parts. The biggest drawback is the lack of fast charging stations throughout the country.

All of these are actually relatively cheap solutions. I say relatively because although it can cost a lot to make a home smart and energy efficient it's not a lot compared to the overall cost of the home.

I think I've digressed a bit from the original question but my main point is that there's a lot we can do as individuals.

Crikey. I cant relocate.

I mentioned eho and hive. Just switching things off when you're not using them is a simpler way and no manufacturing plants required for gadgets to tell you when to do it. A prepay meter would do the same job if a person really needed reminding/incentive.

Widdershins

barrymanilow wrote: »

It's futile .The concerned in the west are Fiddling away with organic beetroot and ecocampsites , meanwhile China lashes up coal plants at the pace of two per week and the amazon is chewed up another few thousand square K a month. I try to do my part too , mostly keeping my head down quietly and leading by example for my kids , mostly for the partly selfish reason that I want to feel less guilty If I'm around when the **** hits the fan . But I'm not deluded .Me cycling to work and taking my reusable coffee cup around with me won't halt enviromental Armageddon . It's comparable to using a thimble to empty water out of the Titanic as she's going under .

Enough people with enough thimbles though.

BorneTobyWilde

All it takes is US and Russia to combine in one point in time for them to take over the world

barrymanilow

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

It's unfair to blame China just because they're worse polluters than the rest of us. They probably build these plants to fuel the industry required to produce all the absolute rubbish we have bought in the last couple of weeks for Christmas.
I think some kind of powerful spiritual movement that would encourage massive lifestyle changes is the only thing that could save us now, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

Either the miracle of widespread lifestyle changes (highly unlikely ) or some sudden scientific breakthrough in meat cloning or energy(possible but a huge gamble) . Other wise were done for .

Sad really . We've been set up on this beautiful planet , which is in a sense a miracle because as far as we know it is the only life sustaining place in the universe. We live in a potential paradise . Its well within human capability to contain population and engineer our food systems to work so that hunger is eradicated and the Planet isn't raped . But were just too flawed or something and cant appreciate or be grateful for this place .We should be walking around in a state of eternal blissful gratefulness for this place and for our chance to play out a life here .But were not , instead we have our heads up our holes and are ripping the place apart for the sake of tacky knick knacks and ****e food that we don't really need and which bring us such fleeting shallow pleasure .The outward destruction of the planet is symptomatic of the internal malaise in the heart of man . I'm not immune myself . I want a shiny dropper post for my mountain bike .

Irish Guitarist

There's something wrong with a society where people work in jobs sitting around at a computer all day so they can pay for petrol to drive somewhere to go for a jog or, even worse, to a gym so they walk on a treadmill.

Another thing is manufacturers making devices that are supposed to be left plugged in. For instance my telephone line is plugged into my router. If I switch off the router the phone line goes down so i have to leave it plugged in constantly.

Dr Crayfish

Starvation does funny things let's not forget. The French Revolution, Communism, these were all birth from common folk starving. Perhaps from whatever terrors we are facing a new movement or political ideology will be born and maybe this time we'll get it right.

Yourself isit

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Starvation does funny things let's not forget. The French Revolution, Communism, these were all birth from common folk starving. Perhaps from whatever terrors we are facing a new movement or political ideology will be born and maybe this time we'll get it right.

I think you've run away with yourself here.

And both those ideologies were pretty extreme. And killed millions.



It isn't certain that we will starve. If food becomes expensive - and the opposite is happening now - there will be a scientific response.

Dr Crayfish

Yourself isit wrote: »

I think you've run away with yourself here.

And both those ideologies were pretty extreme. And killed millions.



It isn't certain that we will starve. If food becomes expensive - and the opposite is happening now - there will be a scientific response.

That's why I said, maybe this time we'll get it right

ScumLord

wakka12 wrote: »

The world is quite literally dying at an alarming pace, Im no green angel, I do a bit, don't use plastic bags, don't eat meat now,

I don't know that not eating meat is going to have a positive effect on your contribution to climate change. There's no doubt there's more farm animals around the world being intensively farmed. The problem is really the new farms in places they've never been before and the land they repossess for farming more so than farming in Ireland, which tends to be much more in harmony with the Irish environment, especially cattle and sheep farming.

The alternative to eating meat for an Irish person means importing foreign foods to fill the gaps. So I guess you'd have to work out how the gases that animals in this country produce (and have been producing for 6,000 years) compared to the gases produced by producing your food intensively somewhere else, packaged and then being transported here. The only reason you can take advantage of those foods is due to the corporate capitalist system taking advantage of impoverished areas, if those people want a fair stake in their labour the cost will shoot up.

The problem for Ireland is we don't have great land for growing. If we stop farming animals we'll become almost completely dependant on foreign food sources and food production will be completely out of our hands.

Deleted User wrote: »

The one that annoys me most is seeing people able to buy chicken breasts etc. so cheaply in the likes of lidl - all these chicken needing to be slaughtered so that realms of mentally shattered insecure 2010's men can keep trying to have big arms to try to look attractive to women.

I'd wonder is it actually better to have a factory cut up the chicken from a waste perspective. A person might use the majority of the meat on a full chicken but a factory will likely make use of every single piece of the animal collecting every bit that we would throw away to turn into a useable product.

bb1234567

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

All it takes is US and Russia to combine in one point in time for them to take over the world

Thats not true while they could invade , theyd never have the manpower to keep strict control over all other people on earth and every place on earth thats literally billiosn of people!

RonFan

barrymanilow wrote: »

the miracle of widespread lifestyle changes (highly unlikely )

I wouldn't be so sure about that. On the surface it may appear to be impossible at this moment, but when the **** really starts hitting the fan and there is no other option to prevent total annihilation this will prompt a new, unitary consciousness to emerge among humans where a co operative order will become totally feasible and relatively easily implementable wherein far more responsible political and ecological choices can be made.

The only reason over-consumption is such a problem is because humans are operating in a highly pretentious way, as if putting on a show to a world (and by extension other people) we feel disconnected from. Higher modes of awareness than this have been possible for a very select few people up until now, but these represent what is possible for everyone in the future and the seemingly catastrophic events that are to come on the world stage will trigger an upgrade in our collective operating system. Well either that or it will be the annihilation of the species if not the planet. It is not possible to carry on with the current ego structure and no technology no matter how sophisticated is going to be sufficient to save us, a collective shift into planetary - away from ego/tribal - consciousness is the only solution and is in fact inevitable because despite how it may look and despite how mainstream science may portray it we live in an efficient reality where everything is part of a grande scheme of not only lower (as studied by science) but higher consciousness evolution.

Grayson

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know that not eating meat is going to have a positive effect on your contribution to climate change. There's no doubt there's more farm animals around the world being intensively farmed. The problem is really the new farms in places they've never been before and the land they repossess for farming more so than farming in Ireland, which tends to be much more in harmony with the Irish environment, especially cattle and sheep farming.

The alternative to eating meat for an Irish person means importing foreign foods to fill the gaps. So I guess you'd have to work out how the gases that animals in this country produce (and have been producing for 6,000 years) compared to the gases produced by producing your food intensively somewhere else, packaged and then being transported here. The only reason you can take advantage of those foods is due to the corporate capitalist system taking advantage of impoverished areas, if those people want a fair stake in their labour the cost will shoot up.

The problem for Ireland is we don't have great land for growing. If we stop farming animals we'll become almost completely dependant on foreign food sources and food production will be completely out of our hands.

I'd wonder is it actually better to have a factory cut up the chicken from a waste perspective. A person might use the majority of the meat on a full chicken but a factory will likely make use of every single piece of the animal collecting every bit that we would throw away to turn into a useable product.

You mention new farms in places they weren't before, well that describes most of Ireland. 6000 years ago we lived on mountain tops because the lowlands were wild and dangerous forests.

Even 100 years ago most of Ireland was tillage farming.

Moving to less meat (I'm not saying we give it up) wouldn't necessarily mean importing more. Plus we do have plenty of good arable farmland that is currently used for dairy and meat ( mean the lowland/midland basin region).
To be fair, dairy is hardly profitable for some farmers thanks to the supermarkets driving down milk prices. It might be financially rewarding for them to switch to producing veg especially if it's caused by a changing trend in what people are consuming.

ScumLord

Grayson wrote: »

You mention new farms in places they weren't before, well that describes most of Ireland. 6000 years ago we lived on mountain tops because the lowlands were wild and dangerous forests.

Even 100 years ago most of Ireland was tillage farming.

True, but there are still large parts of Ireland that are just not suitable for tillage. In the west of Ireland it's very hard to find land that's suitable for anything other than raising animals. Certainly where it can be done, do it, but it's just not an option in some cases. I have a friend who has land and everything he looks into just can't be grown on the land.

There are other parts of the country where you could technically grow the a vegetable or fruit but it won't grow to the right specifications for the market, IE: not big enough..

Even if we could find stuff that can grow on the land, for example Kiwi comes from a part of China that's a lot like Ireland so we could probably grow them here successfully but there's no infrastructure to sell them through. When you're competing on a global scale stuff like that comes into it.

We do over farm meat, we grow more than enough for ourselves and could feed tens of millions of people (if they eat meat). Whereas going through parts of France and Spain you see fields of crops but no animals. So our strength is in breeding animals. They're strength is in growing crops.

Moving to less meat (I'm not saying we give it up) wouldn't necessarily mean importing more. Plus we do have plenty of good arable farmland that is currently used for dairy and meat ( mean the lowland/midland basin region).
To be fair, dairy is hardly profitable for some farmers thanks to the supermarkets driving down milk prices. It might be financially rewarding for them to switch to producing veg especially if it's caused by a changing trend in what people are consuming.

Milk has a low price because we produce a lot of it. Enough to feed 44 million people. Plus many other countries don't use fresh milk like we do. So it's a somewhat limited market outside Ireland. But it's a regular product. They can keep churning it out week after week rather than wait for one crop that might fail depending on weather conditions.

In a global market it makes sense for Ireland to farm animals and import veg and fruit from our European neighbours who can grow better crops due to where they are in the world.

Grayson

Widdershins wrote: »

Crikey. I cant relocate.

I mentioned eho and hive. Just switching things off when you're not using them is a simpler way and no manufacturing plants required for gadgets to tell you when to do it. A prepay meter would do the same job if a person really needed reminding/incentive.

I think I mentioned it before but when I did my MSc in Business I did a nearly 40k word dissertation on prepaid utilities and the utilities market in Ireland.

The Hive is amazing. It can figure out what rooms need to be heated and when. You can customise the whole houses use of heat to minimise the amount you use. And it can be done remotely so you can switch it on/off when you're away from home.

The problem with prepaid meters is that they charge at the standard unit price for electricity. The ones available can't avail of cheaper price per unit that is available on smart grids. And they charge a flat fee per day as "rental" for the meter so a certain percentage of your money always goes on renting the meter. You might end up using less electricity but you pay more for the electricity and the meter. (If you ever want an intensely boring read I can send you my dissertation )

So prepaid meters make sense if you are really cash strapped and can't face bills or if you're renting accommodation to students etc...

The echo even helps since it can integrate with the echo and you can use smart lighting like phillips hue which uses low powered LED lights. (not that there aren't problems with that. I read last week about a guy who found when he went to the bathroom at night he whispered "hallway lights on". The echo picked up the voice but couldn't understand it so it boomed out "SORRY I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU" and work up the whole house).

but like I said, the biggest thing is a smart grid. Being able to install solar cells that pump electricity back into the grid during the day and being able to store that in a battery at home is a huge advantage.
With the right government incentives we could change the way people think about power but unfortunately when they do something like that they either don't make it attractive enough or don't tell people.

Capt'n Midnight

Yourself isit wrote: »

Of the seven deadly items there only soil erosion is that scary.

Lots of examples from history. Most of the lands around the Mediterranean and central Asia. Closer to today there's the dust bowl and the Amazon.

But on the bright side after the mass culling of humans because of the black death lots of people got richer. They inherited loads of stuff and even the labourers got a boost because they got paid better ages because of the labour shortage. Everybody wins \o/ , well except the dead people.

wildgreen

The UN are making an attempt with the Sustainable Development Goals to change the behaviours of economies in a positive way: http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/sustainable-development-goals/

They list examples of things that you can do in your own life here: http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/takeaction/