Thinking of Dairying

Keepgrowing

davidk1394 wrote: »

We worked it out here for our own place. To set up everything for the cows and feeding and repayments it'd be €1,600 a cow per year

Free cows?
Roads
Reseeding
P&k
Etc etc

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

Harsh when u know nothing of system ,there is no reason that can't be profitable ,I find it crazy that some find anything outside of your typical low cost grass based tegasc preached system unprofitable and unsustainable

Didn't say unprofitable but bull****e cop

Keepgrowing

kowtow wrote: »

It does if the alternative to an acre of land is a lorry load of maize.

You can't do variable costs without allowing a land charge, at least not when comparing systems.

I agree that you can set aside drawings, as long as you are clear about it, simply to compare systems.

Then all you have to do is figure whether the margin per litre is enough for the labour units.

You need cash in the system as well. Constantly buying in maize to replace land paid over a long term and growing 16T DM will kill you eventually

kowtow

Keepgrowing wrote:

You need cash in the system as well. Constantly buying in maize to replace land paid over a long term and growing 16T DM will kill you eventually

Absolutely.

You might well need a second silo for it.

the_blue_oval

If your set on a high-ish out put cow, I'd be looking stocking around the parlour fairly high and getting as much grazed grass into the cow as possible, feeding 1-2 ton through a feed to yield system in the parlour and buffering at the shoulders with high quality silage and beet.. should be a fairly simple system to operate and I reckon would be a lot more viable than housing cows year round

Keepgrowing

Power point of Parrick Gowings presentation for Irish Grassland Association Dairy Conference last month

http://www.irishgrassland.com/docs/3-01-Patrick-Growing.pdf

davidk1394

Keepgrowing wrote: »

They are both telling lies. Low cost grass based would be in the region of 24/25c and high input 30c+. Their break even that's all paid inc themselves would be c30 with high cost at c40c.

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.

Keepgrowing

davidk1394 wrote: »

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.[/quote

I can but not here.

Perhaps my farm is that expensive but I like a decent standard of living.

kowtow

Keepgrowing wrote: »

davidk1394 wrote: »

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.[/quote

I can but not here.

Perhaps my farm is that expensive but I like a decent standard of living.

Bentleys / ha would be a very appropriate method of farm comparison, IMO.

davidk1394

Keepgrowing wrote: »

davidk1394 wrote: »

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.[/quote

I can but not here.

Perhaps my farm is that expensive but I like a decent standard of living.

What i want to know is when someone says indoors why do people see red ?? Anyone i know doing indoors and semi indoors are still going strong, even after people said they wont last.

jaymla627

davidk1394 wrote: »

Keepgrowing wrote: »

They are both telling lies. Low cost grass based would be in the region of 24/25c and high input 30c+. Their break even that's all paid inc themselves would be c30 with high cost at c40c.

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.

You can't quantify what your fellas cop is and simply transfer it over as your own, even taking a snap chat of one year where cop might be 24 cent is deluded, things like putting of essential maintaince, skimping on p and k/lime , taking a chance and not making/buying in as much silage hoping for a good spring will all lower your cop but it's haphazard....
In your situation entering dairying your going to need cash coming out your ears for capitial investment to build up your herd/rear replacement heifers which are a massive drain when expanding numbers, and you'll probably encounter health issues associated with bought-in stock, then the issue of sourcing good stock comes into play, it might look great on paper x number of cows doing say a guaranteed 7000 plus litres a year but putting it into practice is a totally different ball game

davidk1394

jaymla627 wrote: »

You can't quantify what your fellas cop is and simply transfer it over as your own, even taking a snap chat of one year where cop might be 24 cent is deluded, things like putting of essential maintaince, skimping on p and k/lime , taking a chance and not making/buying in as much silage hoping for a good spring will all lower your cop but it's haphazard....
In your situation entering dairying your going to need cash coming out your ears for capitial investment to build up your herd/rear replacement heifers which are a massive drain when expanding numbers, and you'll probably encounter health issues associated with bought-in stock, then the issue of sourcing good stock comes into play, it might look great on paper x number of cows doing say a guaranteed 7000 plus litres a year but putting it into practice is a totally different ball game

I know where your coming from, and it's easier said than done. Selling the stock we have will cover the cost of purchasing 100 cows. All the building can be done by ourselves. The biggest cost will be the parlor/robot (still undecided). P,K and lime is all good with 80% of the farm with grass under 5 years old. It'll be to get up and running will be the hardest.

jaymla627

davidk1394 wrote: »

jaymla627 wrote: »

You can't quantify what your fellas cop is and simply transfer it over as your own, even taking a snap chat of one year where cop might be 24 cent is deluded, things like putting of essential maintaince, skimping on p and k/lime , taking a chance and not making/buying in as much silage hoping for a good spring will all lower your cop but it's haphazard....
In your situation entering dairying your going to need cash coming out your ears for capitial investment to build up your herd/rear replacement heifers which are a massive drain when expanding numbers, and you'll probably encounter health issues associated with bought-in stock, then the issue of sourcing good stock comes into play, it might look great on paper x number of cows doing say a guaranteed 7000 plus litres a year but putting it into practice is a totally different ball game

I know where your coming from, and it's easier said than done. Selling the stock we have will cover the cost of purchasing 100 cows. All the building can be done by ourselves. The biggest cost will be the parlor/robot (still undecided). P,K and lime is all good with 80% of the farm with grass under 5 years old. It'll be to get up and running will be the hardest.

Was a new entrant here in 2013, all building work here too was mosty done in-house like your planning to do, like yourself we thought we'll put in the parlour and we'll be flying it after that....
But between roadways/water/putting in cubicles/putting up a calf-shed/ and carrying a heap of replacement heifers the past four years along with issues with bought in cows (managed to be bring in mortellaro/cryto/ibr which lead to a lot of losses srock wise and hefty vet bills), it's been tough going, would reckon I've took less then 7 grand a year in wages over the past 4 years with every single penny been ploughed back into the farm

rangler1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Was a new entrant here in 2013, all building work here too was mosty done in-house like your planning to do, like yourself we thought we'll put in the parlour and we'll be flying it after that....
But between roadways/water/putting in cubicles/putting up a calf-shed/ and carrying a heap of replacement heifers the past four years along with issues with bought in cows (managed to be bring in mortellaro/cryto/ibr which lead to a lot of losses srock wise and hefty vet bills), it's been tough going, would reckon I've took less then 7 grand a year in wages over the past 4 years with every single penny been ploughed back into the farm

Even those depopulated claimed it took ten years to get the herd right, I bought in 200 ewes one year and bought in three diseases, swore I 'd never buy in anything again

jaymla627

rangler1 wrote: »

jaymla627 wrote: »

Was a new entrant here in 2013, all building work here too was mosty done in-house like your planning to do, like yourself we thought we'll put in the parlour and we'll be flying it after that....
But between roadways/water/putting in cubicles/putting up a calf-shed/ and carrying a heap of replacement heifers the past four years along with issues with bought in cows (managed to be bring in mortellaro/cryto/ibr which lead to a lot of losses srock wise and hefty vet bills), it's been tough going, would reckon I've took less then 7 grand a year in wages over the past 4 years with every single penny been ploughed back into the farm

Even those depopulated claimed it took ten years to get the herd right, I bought in 200 ewes one year and bought in three diseases, swore I 'd never buy in anything again

Vaccinating here now for everything under the sun and a closed herd bar stock bulls, it's eye-watering what is spent here on vaccination's but it's paying off to be fair besides the fact the cows are like pin cushion 's haha, mortellaro is the biggest bug bear, but is manageable once you keep on top of it.....

dar31

davidk1394 wrote: »

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.

I often wonder why I participated in these forums. But I hate to see young people intrested in the industry lead down a path they neither know or understand.
You might not agree with it but listen and understand what people say to you. There is a wealth of experience here,but at the end of the day you have to listen

davidk1394

jaymla627 wrote: »

Was a new entrant here in 2013, all building work here too was mosty done in-house like your planning to do, like yourself we thought we'll put in the parlour and we'll be flying it after that....
But between roadways/water/putting in cubicles/putting up a calf-shed/ and carrying a heap of replacement heifers the past four years along with issues with bought in cows (managed to be bring in mortellaro/cryto/ibr which lead to a lot of losses srock wise and hefty vet bills), it's been tough going, would reckon I've took less then 7 grand a year in wages over the past 4 years with every single penny been ploughed back into the farm

Thanks for your input.. if you were back to square 1 would you go again??

davidk1394

dar31 wrote: »

I often wonder why I participated in these forums. But I hate to see young people intrested in the industry lead down a path they neither know or understand.
You might not agree with it but listen and understand what people say to you. There is a wealth of experience here,but at the end of the day you have to listen

I have no problem with someone telling me something. But saying that someone's figures is shíte out of the blue is another thing.

Waffletraktor

davidk1394 wrote: »

Can you stand over that statement you made ??? your dairy set up might be that expensive but the fella who i still work for showed me his cost of production. I want to clarify this is before a wage.

Can someone give me a reason why Cop is done leaving out certain things like wages. Surely it's easier just to have Fixed costs spread across all the litres or solid supplied and stock sales, for drawings and repayments and Variables for the as of yet unknowns etc.

freedominacup

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Can someone give me a reason why Cop is done leaving out certain things like wages. Surely it's easier just to have Fixed costs spread across all the litres or solid supplied and stock sales, for drawings and repayments and Variables for the as of yet unknowns etc.

Ebita. This probably the figure we should use. No real airing of dirty laundry.

whelan2

jaymla627 wrote: »

Vaccinating here now for everything under the sun and a closed herd bar stock bulls, it's eye-watering what is spent here on vaccination's but it's paying off to be fair besides the fact the cows are like pin cushion 's haha, mortellaro is the biggest bug bear, but is manageable once you keep on top of it.....

Johnes is the worst one here at the minute, it takes so long to actually test positive for. No vaccination for it :mad:

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

Ebita. This probably the figure we should use. No real airing of dirty laundry.

That's what the ePM is except for the depreciation, kinda EBIT'
There's not a thing wrong with PM it's the ePM and the fact that once you press enter its no longer your info.

rangler1

davidk1394 wrote: »

I have no problem with someone telling me something. But saying that someone's figures is shíte out of the blue is another thing.

I have a friend claiming 25c COP all in, not a big herd, but one boss is driving children (babysitting) other boss is semi retired and then there's the workman....go figure!!!!!!!.
If your friend is credible, then my friend is too, my friend is a long time in business though and has stood the test of time with a great lifestyle.
Best of luck anyway, as you say you have to change or look outside farming

Keepgrowing

davidk1394 wrote: »

I have no problem with someone telling me something. But saying that someone's figures is shíte out of the blue is another thing.

I'm not saying they're shyte out of the blue, they are and I guarantee you with 5 proper questions one could ascertain that. It's not that important actually.

You're thinking of dairy and I'm not trying to stop you, the opposite in fact. If our industry that we've invested so heavily in is to survive it needs guys like you coming in.

All I'm doing here is pointing out that you need to proceed with caution. There's a lot of experience on Boards and you're right to pick it's brains

I firmly believe there's no wrong system or cow bar a cow bred solely for type, it's the person operating the system that's the weak link.

As a new entrant or indeed with any expansion where large amounts of capital are required a robust business plan is necessary. You then need to add 25% contingency to that and listening to nonsense figures is of no value to you. Benchmark off the top 25% of operators and if you think you can't achieve this don't do it.

I'm attaching Patrick Gowings full paper as per IGA conference. I'd suggest you read it carefully.

rangler1

Keepgrowing wrote: »

I'm not saying they're shyte out of the blue, they are and I guarantee you with 5 proper questions one could ascertain that. It's not that important actually.

You're thinking of dairy and I'm not trying to stop you, the opposite in fact. If our industry that we've invested so heavily in is to survive it needs guys like you coming in.

All I'm doing here is pointing out that you need to proceed with caution. There's a lot of experience on Boards and you're right to pick it's brains

I firmly believe there's no wrong system or cow bar a cow bred solely for type, it's the person operating the system that's the weak link.

As a new entrant or indeed with any expansion where large amounts of capital are required a robust business plan is necessary. You then need to add 25% contingency to that and listening to nonsense figures is of no value to you. Benchmark off the top 25% of operators and if you think you can't achieve this don't do it.

I'm attaching Patrick Gowings full paper as per IGA conference. I'd suggest you read it carefully.

He'd be like the farmer with the €100000 BPS only multiplied by ten, makes it easy to take risks compared to dealing with a bank

kevthegaff

One thing its more flexible going to low cost system, very hard to change the high cost
..

kowtow

kevthegaff wrote: »

One thing its more flexible going to low cost system, very hard to change the high cost
..

If you already own most of the land, so long as you remain below a certain size, it is also more resilient - which is not at all the same thing as sustainable.

With a high input system when prices are low you are likely to run out of cash (unless you take care to maintain enough of it) before the grass man runs out of feed - on the other hand he may not eat much himself in the downturn and may feel poorer for longer in the upturns because the outputs per labour unit may be lower, it may also be that over time the price paid for commodity milk converges such that only the larger (largest?) grassland operations are able to spread their fixed costs sufficiently.

It is about choosing the type of risk you are best suited to. If you have lots of land, but little cash then perhaps low input is safest - if you have plenty of cash (and are good at managing it), then maybe the higher input system makes sense.

My view on robots would be that you should only buy them if you actually have something more profitable to do in the time they save you, or you like comfort and are prepared to go into long term partnership with a robot manufacturer to achieve it.

Waffletraktor

freedominacup wrote: »

Ebita. This probably the figure we should use. No real airing of dirty laundry.

Ahhh so it's more for pea-cocking on presentations or the bank.

We too have the real accounts of what goes on on farm and the official accounts designed to off-set as much tax as posssible from other sources, farms are handy that way.

kowtow

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Ahhh so it's more for pea-cocking on presentations or the bank.

We too have the real accounts of what goes on on farm and the official accounts designed to off-set as much tax as posssible from other sources, farms are handy that way.

ebitda / labour unit
ebitda / cow
ebitda / ha
ebitda / total capital employed


If you had to have four figures comparing systems, these would be them in my opinion. And you'd need a standardised land charge on owned land to make them work properly.

Username John

kowtow wrote: »

ebitda / labour unit
ebitda / cow
ebitda / ha
ebitda / total capital employed


If you had to have four figures comparing systems, these would be them in my opinion. And you'd need a standardised land charge on owned land to make them work properly.

Why would you include a land charge on owned land?
I would have thought this would be an opportunity cost, and not something that would be included in accounts?

(Conscious that asking questions in a dairy thread like this, is dangerous for a lad like me, so I won't ask any more now)