Thinking of Dairying

davidk1394

Right lads as the title suggests myself and the auld lad are looking at dairying in the next couple of years. We currently have 550 breeding ewes and 50 cattle as well. I can't see a comfortable living being made with drystock the way it is.

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

The father is over fertility and breeding as his expert at that side and i'm over nutrition as this is my strong point. We work very well together but we will still draw up a partnership agreement.

Anyway is it madness or is it viable ?

freedominacup

davidk1394 wrote: »

Right lads as the title suggests myself and the auld lad are looking at dairying in the next couple of years. We currently have 550 breeding ewes and 50 cattle as well. I can't see a comfortable living being made with drystock the way it is.

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

The father is over fertility and breeding as his expert at that side and i'm over nutrition as this is my strong point. We work very well together but we will still draw up a partnership agreement.

Anyway is it madness or is it viable ?

Acres available? Current infrastructure? Soil fertility? Current stocking rate? Why indoors?

simx

davidk1394 wrote: »

Right lads as the title suggests myself and the auld lad are looking at dairying in the next couple of years. We currently have 550 breeding ewes and 50 cattle as well. I can't see a comfortable living being made with drystock the way it is.

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

The father is over fertility and breeding as his expert at that side and i'm over nutrition as this is my strong point. We work very well together but we will still draw up a partnership agreement.

Anyway is it madness or is it viable ?

Don't know if ya don't try, but will be a fairly high cost operation by the sounds of it

Mf310

davidk1394 wrote:

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

More than likely zerograzeing then? Costs are the main thing here with the indoor system between machinery and the whole lot

rangler1

davidk1394 wrote: »

Right lads as the title suggests myself and the auld lad are looking at dairying in the next couple of years. We currently have 550 breeding ewes and 50 cattle as well. I can't see a comfortable living being made with drystock the way it is.

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

The father is over fertility and breeding as his expert at that side and i'm over nutrition as this is my strong point. We work very well together but we will still draw up a partnership agreement.

Anyway is it madness or is it viable ?

You must be terrifying th'ould pair with talk like that. :rolleyes:

But seriously, you're right on one thing, drystock won't be sustainable so you've two choices, supplement it or change enterprise.
Won't be a surprise to many on here when I say I don't share your optimism, retailers are screwing down prices, they'll have everyone selling at cost of production (not including labour) and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of interest to make it any different.
As for supplementing it, you've graduated, and there always has been more money in agriculture than farming

davidk1394

rangler1 wrote: »

You must be terrifying th'ould pair with talk like that. :rolleyes:

But seriously, you're right on one thing, drystock won't be sustainable so you've two choices, supplement it or change enterprise.
Won't be a surprise to many on here when I say I don't share your optimism, retailers are screwing down prices, they'll have everyone selling at cost of production (not including labour) and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of interest to make it any different.
As for supplementing it, you've graduated, and there always has been more money in agriculture than farming

The last statement is very true. we don't have anything written in stone yet. But i want to go off and see the world first.

jaymla627

davidk1394 wrote: »

Right lads as the title suggests myself and the auld lad are looking at dairying in the next couple of years. We currently have 550 breeding ewes and 50 cattle as well. I can't see a comfortable living being made with drystock the way it is.

We will probably have to go indoors as the farm is too fragmented to go fully out doors. We plan to start off with 80 cows in spring 2018 and expand up to 300 cows with the help of the uncle and his ground as well. All the digging and concrete work will be done by ourselves and the stone will be brought up from our own quarry.

The father is over fertility and breeding as his expert at that side and i'm over nutrition as this is my strong point. We work very well together but we will still draw up a partnership agreement.

Anyway is it madness or is it viable ?

What's your background of managing a large hi yielding dairy herd indoors and all that goes with it, if your totally green (have never even put a cluster on a cow) for your own sake don't even contemplate going down a hi-input housed dairy route.....
Whatever about the returns from dairying versus beef/sheep the above type system done wrong will put you to the wall especially after the year gone when milk prices where on the floor

Water John

Go and visit guys at the system you are thinking about. Open mind.
There are people at it. If you have a reasonable block at home, you could go for mixed. Out by day, in, with zero grazed at night. A good few at that I'd say.

davidk1394

freedominacup wrote: »

Acres available? Current infrastructure? Soil fertility? Current stocking rate? Why indoors?

Own 160 acres but have the option to rent ground in the future. All grass is under 10 years old. Soil pH is between 6 and 7. P and K is between 2 and 4 mostly 3. Using sweedes and kale as a break crop at the moment and using pig and cattle slurry as well as dung on the land. No weeds and all good land and our winter is usually 30-40 days apart from last year.
All sheep fencing but divided into 7 acre paddocks. 50 acres is a mile over the road. The yard is in the corner of the farm and very few roadways. All straw bedded sheds designed for sheep so all new sheds would have to be built or retrofitted.

davidk1394

jaymla627 wrote: »

What's your background of managing a large hi yielding dairy herd indoors and all that goes with it, if your totally green (have never even put a cluster on a cow) for your own sake don't even contemplate going down a hi-input housed dairy route.....
Whatever about the returns from dairying versus beef/sheep the above type system done wrong will put you to the wall especially after the year gone when milk prices where on the floor

Around cows since 10. Did the dairy green cert and placed with an excellent dairy farmer with 150 cows and all the beef animals who i'm still with at different times of the year. There during calving and when he goes on holidays i run the farm for him. I have a good eye for animals just needs to be tweeked for dairy cows. Have an A.I course done through Kildalton. Have experience on herds from 80 to 400 cows but all outdoor systems.

Water John

Consider moving the yard if you are rebuilding.
would actually moving the yard to the other end of the farm bring the other land into play?
You are starting with a fairly clean slate so all options should be on the table.
Get the plan right.

kevthegaff

davidk1394 wrote:

Own 160 acres but have the option to rent ground in the future. All grass is under 10 years old. Soil pH is between 6 and 7. P and K is between 2 and 4 mostly 3. Using sweedes and kale as a break crop at the moment and using pig and cattle slurry as well as dung on the land. No weeds and all good land and our winter is usually 30-40 days apart from last year. All sheep fencing but divided into 7 acre paddocks. 50 acres is a mile over the road. The yard is in the corner of the farm and very few roadways. All straw bedded sheds designed for sheep so all new sheds would have to be built or retrofitted.

Is rented ground adjoining? Or Uncles? How much in home block as stands, can sheep sheds be converted?

Waffletraktor

Would you have any neighbour you could do a 'land swap' with to get closer to the home block?

Mooooo

Is that 110 acres in one block with 50 away? Where is the proposed rented ground? On that 110 acres you could go to 180 at 4cows/ha if ground is as good as you say should make bales in summer at that rate. Use 50 acres for silage and buy in winter feed. Roadway and central parlour. Look at as many places as you can anyway and have an open mind. The big thing with high yielding indoor herds is you can haemorrhage cash. We simply don't have the feed at the right price in this country. Others have by products and cheaper grain we don't.

davidk1394

Water John wrote: »

Consider moving the yard if you are rebuilding.
would actually moving the yard to the other end of the farm bring the other land into play?
You are starting with a fairly clean slate so all options should be on the table.
Get the plan right.

Keeping an open mind but i want to have a look at different set ups to try and avoid any pit falls

kevthegaff wrote: »

Is rented ground adjoining? Or Uncles? How much in home block as stands, can sheep sheds be converted?

The ground to rent is next door around 50 acres. At the home place i could move the yard down near the house. There is 90 acres here in one block. 20 right across the road and 50 acres a mile over the road. If i could buy a field next to the 20 acres i could walk the cows through the fields.
Sheds could be redone as its a stone base not concrete. Two sheds 5 spans long with a feed passage between them. They can be easily extended if needs be.
Uncle has a drystock farm but was a dairy farm with the existing roadways, dairy and all the sheds however he is organic.

Mooooo

davidk1394 wrote: »

Keeping an open mind but i want to have a look at different set ups to try and avoid any pit falls



The ground to rent is next door around 50 acres. At the home place i could move the yard down near the house. There is 90 acres here in one block. 20 right across the road and 50 acres a mile over the road. If i could buy a field next to the 20 acres i could walk the cows through the fields.
Sheds could be redone as its a stone base not concrete. Two sheds 5 spans long with a feed passage between them. They can be easily extended if needs be.
Uncle has a drystock farm but was a dairy farm with the existing roadways, dairy and all the sheds however he is organic.

Is the ground to rent a bigger area than the home block? If so may be worth setting up there and use rest for feed and heifers. Could always put most of winter housing on home block if need be

davidk1394

Mooooo wrote: »

Is the ground to rent a bigger area than the home block? If so may be worth setting up there and use rest for feed and heifers. Could always put most of winter housing on home block if need be

its 50 acres in total

carrollsno1

Great to have this conversation with you sober David look I'm in a similar boat myself 80 odd acres fragmented good land 50-60 acres of forestry not included in the home farm if you get me (talks of me getting that too) look I've been told more times by lads round here you can milk 30 cows like your grandfather did and live comfortably 30 cows and having to walk them along the main road doesn't cut it for me besides he lived a much quieter life than me I'm thinking ten years down the line I'm 30 years of age could be going steady with a one and would be hoping to up ship and go to somewhere else in the country on a partnership or sharemilking agreement I also want to see the world when im young I'm looking at New Zealand next year or else maybe a set up like Rodney Elliotts in the US but the big problem for me is having pride in the farm at home and I would find it very hard to leave it behind but as an old man said to me before wouldn't you be better off being sorry you sold it than sorry you didn't sell bearing in mind this was development land our farm would make a good price at the moment between stud farms and motorway money in the area it's no harm to mention either David that there's a certain some one from a farm between both of ours who came from a 30 cow farm at home and had 800 cows built up in New Zealand a few years back and sold them all before the dairy crash came and is still farming out there

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

What's your background of managing a large hi yielding dairy herd indoors and all that goes with it, if your totally green (have never even put a cluster on a cow) for your own sake don't even contemplate going down a hi-input housed dairy route.....
Whatever about the returns from dairying versus beef/sheep the above type system done wrong will put you to the wall especially after the year gone when milk prices where on the floor

Whatever about the higher cost of production with indoor systems, it's the shear workload that would utterly turn me off it. If your not on a tractor diet feeding, zg or drawing out slurry then your with your vet or nutritionist trying to keep on top of cow health. I was at a very good farm walk recently with a herd of HOs delivering 8500l, fantastic herd of cows, all in perfect bsc etc, however the farmer and his wife were both utterly married to the cows. I felt like a lazy bollock coming away from there I'll admit ha, once June comes in a spring system your just basically milking rest of the year and ticking over.

davidk1394

Timmaay wrote: »

Whatever about the higher cost of production with indoor systems, it's the shear workload that would utterly turn me off it. If your not on a tractor diet feeding, zg or drawing out slurry then your with your vet or nutritionist trying to keep on top of cow health. I was at a very good farm walk recently with a herd of HOs delivering 8500l, fantastic herd of cows, all in perfect bsc etc, however the farmer and his wife were both utterly married to the cows. I felt like a lazy bollock coming away from there I'll admit ha, once June comes in a spring system your just basically milking rest of the year and ticking over.

It depends on the herd size and set up. A neighbour over the road is milking nearly 400 and is married to the place. Getting a student during the spring and summer will help reduce the work load. A friend of mine runs a 100 cow winter milk herd that's varied between indoors and grass based system

Water John

Your starting with looking at having an enterprise you can make a living at and have a work/life balance.
We all know it isn't 30 cows.
So it could be anywhere from 100 to 250/300, as time goes by. But its about profit and an income.
Your uncle's land is organic. Does that road in any way appeal to you?

Key to that is lower stock numbers, higher margin, high stockmanship and grass/clover sward management.

kowtow

Water John wrote:

Key to that is lower stock numbers, higher margin, high stockmanship and grass/clover sward management.

And straw sheds wouldn't do any harm either!

Who2

I'm i the only one thinking, that 120 cows comfortably on the home block is not enough to get started and get a part time job maybe even do a bit of contracting during the quiet times. There's a lad beside me went extremely big on the zg route for a while and he nearly lost everything. Is 400 cows the new number now ?

C0N0R

carrollsno1 wrote: »

Great to have this conversation with you sober David look I'm in a similar boat myself 80 odd acres fragmented good land 50-60 acres of forestry not included in the home farm if you get me (talks of me getting that too) look I've been told more times by lads round here you can milk 30 cows like your grandfather did and live comfortably 30 cows and having to walk them along the main road doesn't cut it for me besides he lived a much quieter life than me I'm thinking ten years down the line I'm 30 years of age could be going steady with a one and would be hoping to up ship and go to somewhere else in the country on a partnership or sharemilking agreement I also want to see the world when im young I'm looking at New Zealand next year or else maybe a set up like Rodney Elliotts in the US but the big problem for me is having pride in the farm at home and I would find it very hard to leave it behind but as an old man said to me before wouldn't you be better off being sorry you sold it than sorry you didn't sell bearing in mind this was development land our farm would make a good price at the moment between stud farms and motorway money in the area it's no harm to mention either David that there's a certain some one from a farm between both of ours who came from a 30 cow farm at home and had 800 cows built up in New Zealand a few years back and sold them all before the dairy crash came and is still farming out there

Enda??

Timmaay

Who2 wrote: »

I'm i the only one thinking, that 120 cows comfortably on the home block is not enough to get started and get a part time job maybe even do a bit of contracting during the quiet times. There's a lad beside me went extremely big on the zg route for a while and he nearly lost everything. Is 400 cows the new number now ?

It fully depends on the milk price moving forward, if you are starting out with nothing now, or say small enough, there is a hell of alot higher risk of running outa cash racing towards 400 cows than 120 cows ha. In a spring calving system with a reasonably small labour bill (spring help and 2milkings a week off outside of that), at say 30c/l and with not much debt if you can't make a living then you're wasting your time.

carrollsno1

C0N0R wrote: »

Enda??

Yea

mahoney_j

Who2 wrote: »

I'm i the only one thinking, that 120 cows comfortably on the home block is not enough to get started and get a part time job maybe even do a bit of contracting during the quiet times. There's a lad beside me went extremely big on the zg route for a while and he nearly lost everything. Is 400 cows the new number now ?

Forget nos as efficiency always trumps numbers

farmerjj

Loads of these threads starting over the last few years asking what number/land would I need to start dairy farming and people give there opinion/advice, but we never hear how the OP,s get on, anyone start dairy farming in the last 2years?

blue5000

Who2 wrote: »

I'm i the only one thinking, that 120 cows comfortably on the home block is not enough to get started and get a part time job maybe even do a bit of contracting during the quiet times. There's a lad beside me went extremely big on the zg route for a while and he nearly lost everything. Is 400 cows the new number now ?

I was beginning to think I was the only one wondering why be a busy fool with 400 cows, staff, no time off, married to the cows etc. Keep it simple, match your cow numbers to what land you can graze them on. Just because a lad across the road has 400 cows, doesn't mean everyone within a 5 mile radius has to have 400 cows.

mahoney_j

blue5000 wrote: »

I was beginning to think I was the only one wondering why be a busy fool with 400 cows, staff, no time off, married to the cows etc. Keep it simple, match your cow numbers to what land you can graze them on. Just because a lad across the road has 400 cows, doesn't mean everyone within a 5 mile radius has to have 400 cows.

A lot of lads way too focused on milking big nos of cows just cause the lad next door is etc etc .without starting the war again I'd prefer milk 120 cows on my own with short term help in spring and relief milker producing up to 8 k lets 600 plus kg sokids in a very simple system with quality grass ,1.5 tonne fty in parlour and quality silage .contract out slurry ,silage ,some fertiliser spreading etc even consider getting heifers contract reared .if land is good a Sr of 3.5 plus .that leaves u to concentrate on cows and grass ,costs and attending farm walks etc to gain knowledge .

C0N0R

carrollsno1 wrote: »

C0N0R wrote: »

Enda??

Yea

Paper never refused ink!