Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320373#Comment_120320373

First off, I explained with reference to nuclear deterrent programmes and anti-abortion groups the logical and reasonable basis for my position, on why it is entirely valid in politics to form opinions and come to conclusions from what is said AND not said.

Coming back to these specific points - they are the words you chose.

That you have to twist and abuse their meaning - while lecturing me on putting words in AAI's mouth is deeply hypocritical and undermines your entire argument.

This is the definition of 'statement':

a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing

So where did I do that? I precisely did not. You were asked to point to the post where I did that. You were completely unable to. You didn't even try. I did assign an ethos \ POV to them, and with regard to the above examples such as anti-abortion this is valid to do. Nowhere did I attribute a 'statement' to them to that effect.

Nor did I lambast them for that position alone and this point was put to you clearly in the last post. I have for sure 'criticised harshly' their declared agenda and their POV on alcohol. But nowhere did I lambast them specifically on the conclusion re: eventual prohibition. You seem to have made an assumption that merely attributing that position to them in implicitly a 'lambasting'. But that's your interpretation of it. So you are accusing me of lambasting them for wanting prohibition, yet I have already lambasted them on the thread for MUP. So your point seems circular.

So that's not me playing semantic games. That's you making a false accusation and trying to dodge being challenged on it by playing semantic games.

Everything you have accused me of- you have just done.

Pointless engaging further on that basis.

I stand over what I said re: reasonable conclusion to come to as to their ultimate agenda.

Leroy42

Doesn't really matter. AAI are not the ones dictating this policy. This is wide political support, support from the producers, the retailers, the Vintners. While AAI might be vocalising the debate, the only reason that they are getting anywhere is that other powerful groups also want this.

It seems odd to me that people are so focused on AAI. If AAI are so powerful, why are licencing laws being amended?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320515#Comment_120320515

First off, I explained with reference to nuclear deterrent programmes and anti-abortion groups the logical and reasonable basis for my position, on why it is entirely valid in politics to draw conclusions from what is said AND not said.

"Drawing conclusions" is just another way of saying "making it up". You are inferring your own interpretation of what they say (and don't say, for some fcuked up reason). You admit yourself that these are all your own interpretations. You may have reasons for coming to those conclusions, but they are still YOUR conclusions and mean SFA in the grand scheme of things. You think that prohibition may be their ultimate goal, despite the fact that they haven't said so. In fact, you're using the fact that they haven't said so as some sort of perverse reasoning to mean that they DO want it. And you are here giving them stick for it, when it's all made up in your own head. You sound like a basket case.

This is the definition of 'statement':

a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing

So where did I do that? I precisely did not. You were asked to point to the post where I did that. You were completely unable to. You didn't even try. I did assign an ethos \ POV to them, and with regard to the above examples such as anti-abortion this is valid to do. Nowhere did I attribute a 'statement' to them to that effect.

Someone called them neo-prohibitionists. You were defending that statement, while claiming their ultimate goal is, in your opinion, total prohibition. Despite the fact that they have never actually said it, you claim they want to ban alcohol entirely. Is this correct, yes or no?

Btw, This is you admitting to putting words in their mouth, twice, in the one post:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299782/#Comment_120299782

You also make the claim in this post that "their anti alcohol agenda could involve prohobition." You are claiming they are making 'a clear expression of something in speech' when they have done no such thing. You sir, are pulling this all out of your arse.

So that's not me playing semantic games.

I'm afraid you are. You're trying to wriggle out of the rock you've put yourself under by playing semantics with the definitions of "statement" and "lambast". Called it. And you are now trying to claim the moral high ground by accusing me of that which you yourself are guilty of. Classic move. Laughable, but classic.

I stand over what I said re: reasonable conclusion to come to as to their ultimate agenda.

I completely and utterly reject this assertion. It is absolutely 100% unreasonable to make such a claim with zero evidence to back it up. And "them not saying the opposite" is not evidence. It's insane that you could think like that, actually.

Pointless engaging further on that basis.

Finally, something we can agree on.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320515#Comment_120320515

You're muddying the water by using the word Reasonable. It is all over legislation (including 16 times in the Public Health (Alcohol) Act), leaving it to courts if necessary to judge what it means in any given circumstance. Just come out and say that you have definite proof.

reasonable

adj., adv. in law, just, rational, appropriate, ordinary or usual in the circumstances. It may refer to care, cause, compensation, doubt (in a criminal trial), and a host of other actions or activities.

TinCanMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280034#Comment_120280034

Is that Tesco? I've noticed that with them recently. They've basically put the normal price as the clubcard price and added extra for those without(so no real discount as such). It's all about tracking your shopping habits.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360549#Comment_120360549

Yes Tesco.

dxhound2005

The pub trade in the UK must have some good contacts in the Government. Announcement in Budget 2023.

Mr Hunt said: "My penultimate cost of living measure concerns one of our other most treasured community institutions, the great British pub. In December, I extended the alcohol duty freeze until 1 August, after which duties will go up in line with inflation in the usual way.

But today, I will do something that was not possible when we were in the EU and significantly increase the generosity of Draught Relief.

So that from August 1 the duty on draught products in pubs will be up to 11p lower than the duty in supermarkets, a differential we will maintain as part of a new Brexit pubs guarantee.

"Madam Deputy Speaker, British ale may be warm, but the duty on a pint is frozen.

"And even better, thanks to the Windsor Framework negotiated by my RHF the Prime Minister, that change will now also apply to every pub in Northern Ireland."

Hotblack Desiato

Well that surely makes Brexit worthwhile, eh! </SARCASM>

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365450#Comment_120365450

We could, I assume, have a reduced VAT rate on alcohol sold in pubs the same as restaurant was brought down to 9%.

Or they could, and in Scotland did, have gone with MUP.

In other words, more than one way to skin a cat and no need for Brexit to come up with a workaround!

dxhound2005

The VAT on alcohol and soft drinks in restaurants is still 23%.

Temporary VAT Reduction to 9% for Hospitality Sector

The VAT rate for the tourism and hospitality sector was temporarily reduced from 13.5 per cent to 9 per cent on Nov 1st 2020. This was to help the sector during Covid and was announced in Budget 2021 .

The reduced 9% VAT rate was due to end in August 2022 but it was extended until 28 February 2023 and has now been extended again to August 31st 2023.

The 9% reduced VAT rate on hospitality applies to: – catering and restaurant services (food not soft drinks or alcohol), tourist accommodation, cinemas, theatres, museums, historic houses, open farms, amusement parks, certain printed matter, and hairdressing.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366968#Comment_120366968

But contrary to what many here like to think the initiative was not about supporting pubs.

It was about getting rid of the "loss leader" cheap* alcohol sales which dominated the market, raising the floor so that it would become less accessible.

So reducing pub VAT had nothing to do with it.

*I expect people to jump in with the usual "but it's not cheap, it's the most expensive alcohol in Europe".

But it's relatively cheap, and pre MUP supermarket beer was relatively the cheapest it's ever been.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367721#Comment_120367721

*I expect people to jump in with the usual "but it's not cheap, it's the most expensive alcohol in Europe".

But it's relatively cheap, and pre MUP supermarket beer was relatively the cheapest it's ever been.

Relatively doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

In the last six EU countries I have visited namely Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Italy and Germany I could buy wine and beer cheaper in a supermarket than here. I could also buy a bottle of Irish whiskey cheaper than here.

And just for fun I'll throw in the UK which I visit more often.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368079#Comment_120368079

We have higher average salaries than all of those countries.

Alcohol still isnt expensive in the supermarkets here.

I get that the low price point alcohol has moved up in price, but its not really accurate to say it is expensive when you can still buy a can of lager for 2 euro. It would be 6 or 7 euro in a pub for a pint of the same lager, so I dont see the argument that this is a vested interest policy from the Vintners.

Anyone that thinks a can of lager costing 2 euro is expensive is almost certainly not going to pubs very often.

So we seem to be talking about 2 different groups with different perceptions of reasonable price points for alcohol (home drinkers at the lower price point Vs pub goers)

Its not as if a home drinker that is unhappy about paying 2 euro a can is going to start goimg to the pub every weekend in protest.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368240#Comment_120368240

In France I could buy a lovely win for 4 maybe 5 euro, here the price would be at least 12. So your comparison on salaries only works if our average salary is more than twice what there average is. FYI its not.

It is absolutely correct to say Alcohol across the board is expensive in this country in fact its correct to say its the second most expensive in the EU.

Your comparison between pubs and off sales is completely disingenuous and if you dont think its a vested interest from the vintners can you explain why they show up in the lobbying register well over 20 times to specifically lobby for minimum unit pricing being enacted?

Also lets not forget this little nugget they quietly stopped spouting about as it made them look ridiculous https://www.lobbying.ie/return/29668/vintners-federation-of-ireland

More than 60% of all alcohol is now sold via mixed trade retail units. A decade ago 70% of all alcohol was sold & consumed in pubs/restaurants/hotels with the remainder sold in independent off-licences & to a lesser extent supermarkets & mixed trade outlets. This change has contributed to the debate about the effects of binge drinking & a lack of control in this area & has been facilitated to a large extent by the change in S8 (4), Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 which repealed S13 of the 1960 Act.

I remember very clearly an interview done on Newstalk back in about 2016/2017 when the president of the VFI was on radio pushing for MUP by claiming it was safer for people to drink in bars than at home because barmen were trained professionals..... the implication being you wouldn't/couldn't get fall down drunk in a pub etc because the barmen wouldn't allow it. I'm in my late 30s and can count on my fingers of one hand how many times ive seen someone refused service in an Irish pub for being too drunk.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368749#Comment_120368749

Wine is cheaper in France because its produced there.

I do agree with you that alcohol is expensive in ireland vs other countries, but its expensive in pubs/restaurants etc. Not if the off liscence.

2 euro a can is not expensive. It isnt insanely cheap, but its certainly not expensive either.

The bottom line is that you can still buy a 4 pack of beer for the price of 1 pint in the pub.

Pubs, in Dublin at least, are still very busy with plenty of new ones opening.

So unless the MUP price point was significantly raised and equated to 3 or maybe 3.50 a can of beer, there wont ever be enough opposition to MUP because it simply doesnt affect enough people with its current low price point.

As I mentioned on a previous post, anyone that visits a pub or restaurant even once a month would not even notice MUP existed. The prices are so low in off licenses vs a pub and its only the cheap beers that are impacted anyway.

I do empathise with someone on a low income that drinks responsibly and feels they are being penalised by MUP and I think that is a fair point.

But I dont think the majority of people that drink are impacted at all by MUP, its just too low bar for those people to even notice.

As long as the majority of drinkers arent impacted by it, opposition to it at scale wont gain any traction.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369138#Comment_120369138

Teelings whiskey is produced here and yet is virtually the same price here that it is in France, a wine produced in NZ that I enjoy is more than twice the price here than it is in France so once again your logic doesn't pass the smell test by any stretch.

Especially considering in 2020 France consumed more alcohol per capita than we did, theres no figures for France 2021 yet but we also consumed less alcohol in 2021 than any previous year continuing the 2 decades long decline. This was all prior to MUP being introduced and during 2020 and 2021 while everyone was stuck at home with no pubs to go to so everyone ,going by the pro MUP argument, should have been drowing themselves in so called "cheap booze". The arguments for MUP are completely flawed.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369152#Comment_120369152

I'd agree that Irish producers don't really pass on the savings domestically, but the central point still stands that MUP is set too low to impact enough people.

Thats the main point I am making.

There isn't enough opposition to it in ireland because not enough people in ireland are impacted by it, regardless of the cost of wine in France.

I believe the reason for MUP being a non issue here is because its so much lower than the cost of alcohol in a pub or restaurant.

If the price of a pint in Dublin was say 4 euros on average, I could see more people noticing and challenging MUP, "What? its 2 euro a can and 4 for a pint? A can of beer should be way less than half the price of a pint" etc etc

The issue currently is that a can of beer IS way less than half the price of a pint. In fact its about a third the price to buy a can and it some cases a quarter of the price.

So most people just dont notice MUP and so there is no significant opposition to it.

dubrov

It's not Irish producers that make wine much more expensive here than France. It's primarily tax but MUP also has an effect.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369205#Comment_120369205

You are right there is no significant opposition to MUP.

But those of us who see it for what it is harbour a seething resentment for it.

Hotblack Desiato

What a completely nonsensical post @BlueSkyDreams

Wine is cheaper in France because its produced there.

But in many countries I can buy a bottle of Irish whiskey for well under half of the cost of the same bottle here, explain that??

I do agree with you that alcohol is expensive in ireland vs other countries, but its expensive in pubs/restaurants etc. Not if the off liscence.

It absolutely is. Have you ever been in a supermarket in Spain or France? off-licence in Germany? Corner shop in Czechia? Or basically anywhere else in Europe apart from Scandinavia? All sell a wide range of domestic and international brands at prices which are way less than here.

2 euro a can is not expensive. It isnt insanely cheap, but its certainly not expensive either.

2 euro a can for mass market ~4% lagers is very expensive - between two and three times the cost in many EU countries for similar, and around twice the pre-MUP special offer price here (and no evidence has ever been produced that that was a loss leader, either).

The supermarkets, brewers and distributors are all laughing all the way to the bank at our expense. For mass market lagers produced on a very large scale, the brewing costs are extremely low. It's a very profitable industry which, for some bizarre reason, our government has chosen to make even more profitable.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388225#Comment_120388225

I agreed that alcohol generally is expensive in ireland.

My main point is that there is no mass opposition to MUP in Ireland because compared to alcohol prices in pubs and bars, MUP is still cheap. Thats a fact.

Most people that go out to pubs and bars wouldnt even know MUP existed.

dxhound2005

A Public Health Scotland person, and a charity worker from NI were on Good Morning Ulster, on BBC Radio Ulster 21 March. Last ten minutes of the programme if anyone wants to listen. The latest findings from the ongoing research on the effect of MUP in Scotland has been published. In summary it is saying that there has been a 13% reduction in deaths related to alcohol.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)00497-X/fulltext

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388285#Comment_120388285

Of course it's a lot cheaper than a pub. That's not the point. Taking a can out of your fridge is a very different prospect from leasing, insuring, staffing etc etc a a pub. And the people affected most by MUP can't afford pub prices anyway -and more and more people can't either. Industry is pricing itself out of existence.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388420#Comment_120388420

I heard that and read some of the reports. I think they overly simplify the results. They don't go into detail of how alcohol related deaths are categorised for a start and they also don't say if drug related deaths have risen for example. It's a typical anti alcohol bashing if I'm honest.

This line at the very top of the article speaks volumes:

"The research was observational, so cannot prove conclusively that the significant fall in deaths was due to the minimum unit pricing policy."

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388544#Comment_120388544

People could afford to spend €7.5 billion in 2019 before the pandemic. It went down during the pandemic, with a big crossover to the off trade. We will have to see what it is after a full normal 12 months for comparison. Even if people cut back consumption a bit and still spent the €7.5 billion, the trade would still be in good shape.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388569#Comment_120388569

The interview on the radio covered those exact points. And they were able to justify their methodology. They used England, which has no MUP, and previous figures from Scotland as a "control".

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388569#Comment_120388569

Yea exactly, who's going to believe anything in a peer-reviewed general medical journal that has been around for 200 years.

Oh and on the drugs deaths, they started rising sharply in 2013, well before MUP in Scotland, it's been debated many times on this thread.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388588#Comment_120388588

"The research was observational, so cannot prove conclusively that the significant fall in deaths was due to the minimum unit pricing policy."

The interview on the radio was merely opinion too though not based on any substantiated statistics.

Myself and other folk who are not in favour of MUP could easily commission such report to show that while Alcohol consumption is down drug use has risen. But that would be reputed by pro mup people. And rightly so.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388592#Comment_120388592

"The research was observational, so cannot prove conclusively that the significant fall in deaths was due to the minimum unit pricing policy."

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388597#Comment_120388597

I would not repudiate it, if it was based on good science.