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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh
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Expect a lot more of this kind of thing if minimum pricing is implemented:
https://www.rte.ie/amp/1024634/
More than 11,000 litres of alcohol, with a retail value of €403,000 has been seized by Revenue officers at Dublin Port.
The smuggled alcohol, which included over 10,200 litres of blended scotch whiskey and 800 litres of alcopops, represents a potential loss to the exchequer of over €255,300.0 -
Why is it that the non alcho beers are as dear as their alco version, yet the vat rates should be different, as vat and tax on the alco version is way high, what is the explanation for this0
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Why is it that the non alcho beers are as dear as their alco version, yet the vat rates should be different, as vat and tax on the alco version is way high, what is the explanation for this
Same reason why craft beers are the same price as the big brands.
Profit and what the market will accept.
A far better way, IMO, to deal with drinking, would be to make it a condition of every licence that a certain number of non alcohol drinks should be available for each licence and they must be x% lower than the alcoholic equivalent.
For example Heinekin should be made provide at least one on Tap version of their non-alcoholic, it should be prominently advertised within the establishment and be cheaper.
Non Alcoholic should be on tap, so that you aren't forced to pay the higher price for bottles.0 -
Why is it that the non alcho beers are as dear as their alco version, yet the vat rates should be different, as vat and tax on the alco version is way high, what is the explanation for this
VAT isn't different, it's the same 23%.
I'd say you mean the excise is zero?
NA weissbier is 4.30 in a GY pub.0 -
The Adam Smith Foundation in the UK found that actually the vice taxes on drink actually easily pays for the high health care costs of people who suffer from alcohol related illnesses. The idea that drinking is a cost on the economy is almost certainly nonsense.0
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Greentopia wrote: »Maybe that's the case in Northern and Western cities like Stuttgart, Munich and Hamburg but have you been to the former DDR states?
Much higher unemployment, lower wages and fewer opportunities in states like Saxony and Thuringia. And from what I saw people drink more in the former Eastern states.
Much easier to do so when a crate of beer (11 bottles) cost less than €10 for 11 0.5L bottles.
They may or may not drink more in the east, it is an interesting question but either way its not a major issue. Likewise alcohol abuse in Ireland is massively overblown.0 -
I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.charlotte.york wrote: »They may or may not drink more in the east, it is an interesting question but either way its not a major issue. Likewise alcohol abuse in Ireland is massively overblown.
Sorry for tardy response, am in the middle of house renovations.
It is an issue, I've seen it for myself as my partner is from there and I go there several times a year. It's nowhere near the problem we have though and they don't have the same binge drinking culture we do.
That's the problem here. I've only ever been to one other country where I've seen people drink so much they cause mayhem on the streets after dark with young people- women included literally falling over drunk and getting into fights- the UK. Not once did I see that in all the years I lived on the continent.
Go into any A&E on the weekends or on any major festival day like St. Patricks Day and see how "massively overblown" you think it is. Talk to the doctors and nurses and ambulance crews who have to deal with the consequences of our inability to moderate our habits. You're not living in the same country I am if you don't think we still have a big problem with alcohol.0 -
Greentopia wrote: »That's the problem here. I've only ever been to one other country where I've seen people drink so much they cause mayhem on the streets after dark with young people- women included literally falling over drunk and getting into fights- the UK. Not once did I see that in all the years I lived on the continent.
Go into any A&E on the weekends or on any major festival day like St. Patricks Day and see how "massively overblown" you think it is. Talk to the doctors and nurses and ambulance crews who have to deal with the consequences of our inability to moderate our habits. You're not living in the same country I am if you don't think we still have a big problem with alcohol.
In Poland, Czech Republic, Estonia, Russia you'll end up in a drunk tank, not A&E, and likely charge you through the nose for the privilege.
300,000 visits to drunk tanks in Poland alone each year.
We'll never moderate our habits if we treat the responsible adults like children with these ridiculous proposals, and don't bring home to the actual people being drunk and disorderly some consequences for their actions. Ambulance crews ain't gonna do that. Paddys Day in a drunk tank might."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Greentopia wrote: »Sorry for tardy response, am in the middle of house renovations.
It is an issue, I've seen it for myself as my partner is from there and I go there several times a year. It's nowhere near the problem we have though and they don't have the same binge drinking culture we do.
That's the problem here. I've only ever been to one other country where I've seen people drink so much they cause mayhem on the streets after dark with young people- women included literally falling over drunk and getting into fights- the UK. Not once did I see that in all the years I lived on the continent.
Go into any A&E on the weekends or on any major festival day like St. Patricks Day and see how "massively overblown" you think it is. Talk to the doctors and nurses and ambulance crews who have to deal with the consequences of our inability to moderate our habits. You're not living in the same country I am if you don't think we still have a big problem with alcohol.
Controlling for geography Irish drinking is not high and has been declining for a long time.0 -
In Poland, Czech Republic, Estonia, Russia you'll end up in a drunk tank, not A&E, and likely charge you through the nose for the privilege.
300,000 visits to drunk tanks in Poland alone each year.
We'll never moderate our habits if we treat the responsible adults like children with these ridiculous proposals, and don't bring home to the actual people being drunk and disorderly some consequences for their actions. Ambulance crews ain't gonna do that. Paddys Day in a drunk tank might.
Exactly
Punish those who cause the hassle in A&E and for doctors and nurses and ambulance crews
Why should every single person in Ireland pay more for their alcohol even when they don't do any of these things above?
I've never been in an A&E after a nights drinking so doctors and nurses and ambulance crews haven't seen me late at night
We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe as it is0 -
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »Expect a lot more of this kind of thing if minimum pricing is implemented:
https://www.rte.ie/amp/1024634/
More than 11,000 litres of alcohol, with a retail value of €403,000 has been seized by Revenue officers at Dublin Port.
The smuggled alcohol, which included over 10,200 litres of blended scotch whiskey and 800 litres of alcopops, represents a potential loss to the exchequer of over €255,300.
Lol, the government and holy roller brigade have revived bootlegging after 85 yrs.
The 2020s in Ireland are going to be like the 1920s in Chicago and New York.
I'm off to buy a tommy gun and running board for my car.0 -
Greentopia wrote: »Sorry for tardy response, am in the middle of house renovations.
It is an issue, I've seen it for myself as my partner is from there and I go there several times a year. It's nowhere near the problem we have though and they don't have the same binge drinking culture we do.
That's the problem here. I've only ever been to one other country where I've seen people drink so much they cause mayhem on the streets after dark with young people- women included literally falling over drunk and getting into fights- the UK. Not once did I see that in all the years I lived on the continent.
Go into any A&E on the weekends or on any major festival day like St. Patricks Day and see how "massively overblown" you think it is. Talk to the doctors and nurses and ambulance crews who have to deal with the consequences of our inability to moderate our habits. You're not living in the same country I am if you don't think we still have a big problem with alcohol.
Where do you think these people in A&E are originating?
They were probably in a pub prior to their admission. This minimum unit pricing is being aimed at the off-trade where most sensible drinkers would consume their beverage of choice in the comfort of their own home.
Also, drinking on the streets is illegal. However, rather than tackling head on (i.e. on an individual basis), the government insist on punishing everyone.
It has been implied numerous times that this is a smoke screen to keep the pubs in business and nothing to do with public order.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »Where do you think these people in A&E are originating?
They were probably in a pub prior to their admission. This minimum unit pricing is being aimed at the off-trade where most sensible drinkers would consume their beverage of choice in the comfort of their own home.
Also, drinking on the streets is illegal. However, rather than tackling head on (i.e. on an individual basis), the government insist on punishing everyone.
It has been implied numerous times that this is a smoke screen to keep the pubs in business and nothing to do with public order.
It has not been implied it has been stated outright as fact and the relevant section of the Fine Gael manifesto that says this has been posted several times already.0 -
Yeah exactly. Wasn't in the health part of the Manifesto either
5. Community and Rural Affairs
5.3 Keeping Communities Vibrant
Post Offices: Fine Gael will ensure the network of post offices around the country are maintained and
communities have access to adequate postal services in their locality.
Emigration: Employment is key to halting the new wave of emigration that is resulting in the desertion
of our communities. Fine Gael’s focus in Government will be job creation, providing new opportunities for
young and old to live and work in their own communities.
Rural Activities: Fine Gael will reverse the ban on stag hunting.
Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as
a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice
of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol
consumption and the viability of pubs.
http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/fg/Fine%20Gael%20GE%202011.pdf0 -
Supporting Irish pubs is not in of itself a bad idea.
It certainly gives us something different from the non-identity pub scene in other countries.
And plenty of money is given over to sport, art, music, literature, parks, recreation, museems etc in the name of culture and creating a unique Irish identity.
Many tourists will attest that the Irish pub is unique and a big selling point.
It is akin to the fight that the highstreet has from the internet. Sure its great to get a book cheaper on Amazon, but book stores, libraries etc offer more than simply somewhere to purchases a book. They offer a gathering place. A place to browse, to see books you might never see. To get children interested in books.
I don't see MAP as the answer though. A wider acknowledgment of the issues facing the pub needs to be undertaken and possible solutions formulated.0 -
Same reason why craft beers are the same price as the big brands.
Profit and what the market will accept.
A far better way, IMO, to deal with drinking, would be to make it a condition of every licence that a certain number of non alcohol drinks should be available for each licence and they must be x% lower than the alcoholic equivalent.
For example Heinekin should be made provide at least one on Tap version of their non-alcoholic, it should be prominently advertised within the establishment and be cheaper.
Non Alcoholic should be on tap, so that you aren't forced to pay the higher price for bottles.
good idea, apart from having it on tap.
kegs would be sitting there for weeks going stale. at least with bottles they're good for a good few months0 -
Supporting pubs is stupid. Maybe I hate pubs but love gardening, why should my taxes go to pubs. Pubs are well able to stand on their own feet if they were not so crucified by taxes. Reduce all taxes on alcohol to 15-30% in all bars and off-licences. Then pubs would thrive. Let people make up their own minds.Supporting Irish pubs is not in of itself a bad idea.
It certainly gives us something different from the non-identity pub scene in other countries.
And plenty of money is given over to sport, art, music, literature, parks, recreation, museems etc in the name of culture and creating a unique Irish identity.
Many tourists will attest that the Irish pub is unique and a big selling point.
It is akin to the fight that the highstreet has from the internet. Sure its great to get a book cheaper on Amazon, but book stores, libraries etc offer more than simply somewhere to purchases a book. They offer a gathering place. A place to browse, to see books you might never see. To get children interested in books.
I don't see MAP as the answer though. A wider acknowledgment of the issues facing the pub needs to be undertaken and possible solutions formulated.0 -
charlotte.york wrote: »Supporting pubs is stupid. Maybe I hate pubs but love gardening, why should my taxes go to pubs. Pubs are well able to stand on their own feet if they were not so crucified by taxes. Reduce all taxes on alcohol to 15-30% in all bars and off-licences. Then pubs would thrive. Let people make up their own minds.
Because Pubs offer a cultural identity. Your garden doesn't.
Tourists seem to love the Irish Pub, there is a reason why there is a 'Irish' pub in most centres around the world.
Would you prefer that we end up with the likes of Wetherspoons? The exact same experience no matter where you are?
Why should your taxes go to funds sports, or the arts? Because they give something back and so, in theory, do pubs.
As I said, I don't see MAP as the way to solve the issue that pubs are facing. In many places there are simply too many pubs to survive. TBH, there is very little that can be done there. But something like the tourist tax rate reduction (9% I think it was), getting the producers to start to help out with funding travel arrangements, reducing the price of soft drinks, better availability of Non alcoholic options.
PS - it was mentioned in an earlier post that having it tap wouldn't work as it doesn't sell. But that is based on current thinking. If the main brewers get fully behind it, driven by pricing, then it would sell. Think of Heinekin 0%. Have that at €4 instead of 5.50 and I bet you would have plenty of people getting another pint towards the end of the night alcohol free or every second pint. What needs to change is the brewers need to be forced, like they were in terms of the performance of car engines, it meet certain laws and they will develop the product rather than lose out.0 -
Because Pubs offer a cultural identity. Your garden doesn't.
Tourists seem to love the Irish Pub, there is a reason why there is a 'Irish' pub in most centres around the world.
Would you prefer that we end up with the likes of Wetherspoons? The exact same experience no matter where you are?
Why should your taxes go to funds sports, or the arts? Because they give something back and so, in theory, do pubs.
As I said, I don't see MAP as the way to solve the issue that pubs are facing. In many places there are simply too many pubs to survive. TBH, there is very little that can be done there. But something like the tourist tax rate reduction (9% I think it was), getting the producers to start to help out with funding travel arrangements, reducing the price of soft drinks, better availability of Non alcoholic options.
PS - it was mentioned in an earlier post that having it tap wouldn't work as it doesn't sell. But that is based on current thinking. If the main brewers get fully behind it, driven by pricing, then it would sell. Think of Heinekin 0%. Have that at €4 instead of 5.50 and I bet you would have plenty of people getting another pint towards the end of the night alcohol free or every second pint. What needs to change is the brewers need to be forced, like they were in terms of the performance of car engines, it meet certain laws and they will develop the product rather than lose out.
More promotion of alcohol free beers in pubs is a great idea. Even aside from having pints, a better selection of bottles would help. Heineken 0% is everywhere but I'm not particularly fond of it. Pure Brew on the other hand I find delicious but it seems to be very hard to find.0 -
Because Pubs offer a cultural identity. Your garden doesn't.
Tourists seem to love the Irish Pub, there is a reason why there is a 'Irish' pub in most centres around the world.
Would you prefer that we end up with the likes of Wetherspoons? The exact same experience no matter where you are?
Why should your taxes go to funds sports, or the arts? Because they give something back and so, in theory, do pubs.
As I said, I don't see MAP as the way to solve the issue that pubs are facing. In many places there are simply too many pubs to survive. TBH, there is very little that can be done there. But something like the tourist tax rate reduction (9% I think it was), getting the producers to start to help out with funding travel arrangements, reducing the price of soft drinks, better availability of Non alcoholic options.
PS - it was mentioned in an earlier post that having it tap wouldn't work as it doesn't sell. But that is based on current thinking. If the main brewers get fully behind it, driven by pricing, then it would sell. Think of Heinekin 0%. Have that at €4 instead of 5.50 and I bet you would have plenty of people getting another pint towards the end of the night alcohol free or every second pint. What needs to change is the brewers need to be forced, like they were in terms of the performance of car engines, it meet certain laws and they will develop the product rather than lose out.
I am sick to to death of pubs being the only cultural export. Gardens provide an amazing cultural identity. Many Irish gardens are amazing tourist attractions. But they shouldn't have too. No sector should be subsidised. It is 1930s style economic policy. .
If we end up with Wederspoons it is only because Irish people choose to use them over native small pubs.0 -
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charlotte.york wrote: »I am sick to to death of pubs being the only cultural export. Gardens provide an amazing cultural identity. Many Irish gardens are amazing tourist attractions. But they shouldn't have too. No sector should be subsidised. It is 1930s style economic policy. .
If we end up with Wederspoons it is only because Irish people choose to use them over native small pubs.
Isn't there a big garden festival held in the Phoenix Park each year? Don't we have the botanic gardens? A race to the bottom is not always the best way to go and it is the job of governments to take a societal view of things and sometimes do things that the individual may not deem worthy.
I am not talking about taking public money and simply giving it to failing pubs. Incentivise the pubs, the pub trade, to deal with things better, to look at better ways to survive.
But like it or not plenty of sectors are subsidised. The Arts, sport in particular. Whilst you may like gardens, there is no doubt that the pub holds a cultural part of Ireland. It plays a major role in peoples lives, how we stay connected to our communities. It is a clear differentiation for tourists. Your garden, no matter how beautiful doesn't do that.0 -
Because Pubs offer a cultural identity. Your garden doesn't.
Tourists seem to love the Irish Pub, there is a reason why there is a 'Irish' pub in most centres around the world.
Would you prefer that we end up with the likes of Wetherspoons? The exact same experience no matter where you are?
Why should your taxes go to funds sports, or the arts? Because they give something back and so, in theory, do pubs.
As I said, I don't see MAP as the way to solve the issue that pubs are facing. In many places there are simply too many pubs to survive. TBH, there is very little that can be done there. But something like the tourist tax rate reduction (9% I think it was), getting the producers to start to help out with funding travel arrangements, reducing the price of soft drinks, better availability of Non alcoholic options.
PS - it was mentioned in an earlier post that having it tap wouldn't work as it doesn't sell. But that is based on current thinking. If the main brewers get fully behind it, driven by pricing, then it would sell. Think of Heinekin 0%. Have that at €4 instead of 5.50 and I bet you would have plenty of people getting another pint towards the end of the night alcohol free or every second pint. What needs to change is the brewers need to be forced, like they were in terms of the performance of car engines, it meet certain laws and they will develop the product rather than lose out.
Have you actually tried Heineken Zero?0 -
Reputable Rog wrote: »Have you actually tried Heineken Zero?
Yes, I have. I assume that you mean you don't like it but I think its ok. In saying that I have only tried it once of twice, not spent an evening drinking it.
But regardless, peoples tastes differ but it is clear that it is a step in the right direction, in that a major brewer is giving it full support to a non-alcoholic product.
IMO, to be allowed to sell an alcoholic product in Ireland (in pubs at least) you should have to be able to offer at least one non-alcoholic drink in the range. And on tap. Why should it be more expensive to drink non-alcoholic (which drinking bottles works out to be). Either that or lower the price of the bottles. You can buy a Heinekin Zero for €1 in the shop, no reason why it can't be far less than a normal pint in a pub.
All the brewers talk about Drinkaware, but this would actually be a positive step in that regard rather than simply words. And like in other areas, if customers start demanding that the products improve the brewers will find a way to satisfy the demand. That is what Zero is attempting to do. Go get ahead of the competition so that they can control, what I suspect they believe, is a growing market.
The pubs should be getting on board too. They continually moan about drink driving laws impacting their business but here is a product that can maintain their business and even grow it. Instead of going to the pub for one, you can stay for 3 or 4. Then there is possibly food etc on top of that.
There is a non-alcoholic bar recently opened in Dublin (no idea where). I doubt it will work, we just are not there yet, but it signals things are changing.0 -
All the brewers talk about Drinkaware, but this would actually be a positive step in that regard rather than simply words. And like in other areas, if customers start demanding that the products improve the brewers will find a way to satisfy the demand. That is what Zero is attempting to do. Go get ahead of the competition so that they can control, what I suspect they believe, is a growing market.
The pubs should be getting on board too. They continually moan about drink driving laws impacting their business but here is a product that can maintain their business and even grow it. Instead of going to the pub for one, you can stay for 3 or 4. Then there is possibly food etc on top of that.
There is a non-alcoholic bar recently opened in Dublin (no idea where). I doubt it will work, we just are not there yet, but it signals things are changing.
Irish publicans don't think like this though. MUP is proof of it. They just leverage their political power to get an edge on their competition, as they see it, the off licence trade. Easier for them to moan to their local brother TD than do something positive."To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Wonder will the publicans do a whip round for harris when he gets the bullet. He is an absolute clown and min pricing legislation should be binned with him the total tool box.0
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Wonder will the publicans do a whip round for harris when he gets the bullet. He is an absolute clown and min pricing legislation should be binned with him the total tool box.0
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Wonder will the publicans do a whip round for harris when he gets the bullet. He is an absolute clown and min pricing legislation should be binned with him the total tool box.0
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Checkmate19 wrote: »Wonder will the publicans do a whip round for harris when he gets the bullet. He is an absolute clown and min pricing legislation should be binned with him the total tool box.
Three whip arounds?0 -
I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.Because Pubs offer a cultural identity. Your garden doesn't.
Tourists seem to love the Irish Pub, there is a reason why there is a 'Irish' pub in most centres around the world.
Would you prefer that we end up with the likes of Wetherspoons? The exact same experience no matter where you are?
Why should your taxes go to funds sports, or the arts? Because they give something back and so, in theory, do pubs.
As I said, I don't see MAP as the way to solve the issue that pubs are facing. In many places there are simply too many pubs to survive. TBH, there is very little that can be done there. But something like the tourist tax rate reduction (9% I think it was), getting the producers to start to help out with funding travel arrangements, reducing the price of soft drinks, better availability of Non alcoholic options.
PS - it was mentioned in an earlier post that having it tap wouldn't work as it doesn't sell. But that is based on current thinking. If the main brewers get fully behind it, driven by pricing, then it would sell. Think of Heinekin 0%. Have that at €4 instead of 5.50 and I bet you would have plenty of people getting another pint towards the end of the night alcohol free or every second pint. What needs to change is the brewers need to be forced, like they were in terms of the performance of car engines, it meet certain laws and they will develop the product rather than lose out.
Ive found wetherspoons to be quite alright, Ive gotten nice food and different beer there, at least you know what you'll get and it seems to be a fairly good standard in my experience.
As for Irish pubs, well what you get is practically the same thing everywhere, and its not a good standard so they have unsuprisingly resorted to lobbying to force us to drink in their establishments? I wont be, same crap heineken, guinness, Bud, I mean generally places cant even serve a decent pint of Guinness, they usually have a gruff anti customer attitude, stopped going to Irish pubs years ago, dont have the time really, I prefer to sit down to a few quiet beers at home, why should I be obligated to fund Publicans? Im all for encouraging support and change to keep businesses open, but publicans need to look at it differently.
recently on the radio I heard about an early house, I think it sounds like a nice and interesting traditional setting, but when the publican was interviewed he really put the boot into people drinking at home, I wouldnt get tanked if I was drinking on my own at home anyway, he really was pushing the angle that people who drink at home were socially excluded and are likely to abuse drink.0 -
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Ive found wetherspoons to be quite alright, Ive gotten nice food and different beer there, at least you know what you'll get and it seems to be a fairly good standard in my experience.
As for Irish pubs, well what you get is practically the same thing everywhere, and its not a good standard so they have unsuprisingly resorted to lobbying to force us to drink in their establishments? I wont be, same crap heineken, guinness, Bud, I mean generally places cant even serve a decent pint of Guinness, they usually have a gruff anti customer attitude, stopped going to Irish pubs years ago, dont have the time really, I prefer to sit down to a few quiet beers at home, why should I be obligated to fund Publicans? Im all for encouraging support and change to keep businesses open, but publicans need to look at it differently.
recently on the radio I heard about an early house, I think it sounds like a nice and interesting traditional setting, but when the publican was interviewed he really put the boot into people drinking at home, I wouldnt get tanked if I was drinking on my own at home anyway, he really was pushing the angle that people who drink at home were socially excluded and are likely to abuse drink.
I've been in quite a few Wetherspoons in the UK.
Some of them are housed in very interesting buildings which are nice to see apart from the few pints.
Never got a bad pint and they have guest beers on offer a lot of the time.
It's an interesting business model but can lack the personal touch of an owner landlord.
As for our own publicans, in return for the quick fix of MUP they have jumped into bed with a bunch of health fanatics and neo-prohibitionists. I think that in the long term they will rue the day.0
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