Should parents stop pretending that Santa is real?

BrokenArrows

DredFX wrote: »

Article on the Telegraph today (also published on the Irish Examiner, though they deleted it within hours of posting it) reports on a suggestion by a psychologist and social scientist that parents should stop pretending Santa Claus exists because it could hurt their relations with their children.



A professor from the University of New England in Australia also made the rather insightful claim that:



So, lying about Santa can bring progenitor-offspring relations into a serious penumbra.

Anybody here resent their parents for maintaining the great Christmas masquerade? I sure as hell do.

No of course not.
There is great fun involved in pretending santa is real for kids.
The problem is choosing the right time when to tell the kids.

I remember the time my mum told me that Santa wasnt real. But it was a very mundane conversation.

"BrokenArrows, i want to tell you something, Santa isnt real".

and i remember just thinking, "Ya, makes sense", because i was at an age where i kinda knew anyway. Probably 8-9 i guess.

You hear stories of kids going into 10+ and still believing which is just wrong. Its likely all their friends know and they will end up defending themselves or being made fun of. So when you eventually do tell them they will feel stupid for believing.

I think 8-9 is a good age but if you suspect the kid knows anyway then you should tell them.

whoopsadoodles

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest.
Perosnally, I'm from a country that doesn't do Santa, so it was never a big issue in our house. Santa was one of those odd yankee things you'd see in Hollywood films, nothing more.

But to believe in it until you're 10? I had my first period when I was 10...

Getting your period at 10 years old is one of the most traumatic experiences of a little girl's life. They're just finding out that they won't be a child for much longer.

Not exactly the time to be sitting them down and telling them "yeh, and another thing".

mdwexford

No.

endacl

DredFX wrote: »

So, lying about Santa can bring progenitor-offspring relations into a serious penumbra.

penumbra
pɪˈnʌmbrə/Submit
noun
1.
the partially shaded outer region of the shadow cast by an opaque object.
2.
a peripheral or indeterminate area or group.
"an immense penumbra of theory surrounds any observation"

Which definition did you have in mind? Neither appears to make sense, penumbrically speaking...

mdwexford

newacc2015 wrote: »

I don't think it is harmless fun though. There is plenty of studies that find children develop their spending habits at a very young age. I dont think it is particularly helpful for someone to be telling their 10/11 year old that a non-existent man brings them whatever they want rather than their parents hard work. How is a child supposed to be conservative around money when they dont know where it is being spent?

It is important to keep Christmas magical etc. But it is more important that your children learns from a young age how to manage money. Christmas is a few days a year, bad spending habits **** you up for life.

Jesus get a grip will you.

You can easily do both.

whoopsadoodles

Father Hernandez wrote: »

Exactly, I was the same.

I remember when I was old enough to think like this (probably a few months before I stopped believing), I said f**k it, I'll make a list of everything I want, sure its Santa why wouldn't he bring everything.

The list of 20 something from Playstation games to a new United jersey got fairly diminished after a chat with the parents at the time. Pick one/two and Santa will be able to bring, all other children needs presents too.

I have a vivid memory of sitting on the bottom bunk bed, shouting into the sitting room to my mam if it was OK to put a packet of markers on my santa letter.

Well off we were not!

Autonomous Cowherd

I find it a tricky one.
I was an introverted and highly imaginative child, and the oldest of many. One year my parents sat down the eldest 4 of us to tell us the 'truth' about Santa, and while my younger siblings sniggered and sneered jubilantly that they had known for ages, I was genuinely devastated. To say I had believed was an understatement - I had hallucinated the guy.
It was truly as if a hole had been suddenly rent in the time space continuum and I went through a mute period of total shock and grieving.
With my own children, I 'did' the Santa thing, but I kept it as low key as possible, small gifts, letting them know the parents paid, and never hyping them up into the level of gullibility I had experienced as a child. They always had a splendid Christmas and we look forward to being together every year.
It's overdone, the whole Santa thing. In Europe the presents aspect takes a place way down the list behind family, food, lights, and community. I TRULY dislike and dread the whole commercial aspect of Christmas.
(Sorry)

ScumLord

I don't really see what's so great about the current iteration of santa claus. He started out bringing gifts to those that were forgotten. Now he rewards wealth by getting more stuff for rich kids and leaves out the poorest in society because they can't afford the stuff in the ads on TV. He's the head of consumermiss, not much more.

I don't see it as a good tradition. I really don't. We teach kids coming into adulthood that the people in charge would rather live in a fantasy land and are willing to lie through their teeth to maintain the illusion. It's not like kids don't spend the rest of the year in a fantasy land either in their own head or in marioland, or whatever the current cartoon thing is. Consumermiss isn't anything worth protecting.

People need to step back from these nostalgic "traditions" (they're not really traditions) and look at what they're actually doing.

Humbug to all of it!

_Jamie_

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

It's overdone, the whole Santa thing. In Europe the presents aspect takes a place way down the list behind family, food, lights, and community. I TRULY dislike and dread the whole commercial aspect of Christmas.
(Sorry)

Whilst I disagree that the Santa part is overdone, I totally agree that the commercial side of Christmas is way down the list of what makes the season special, at least once the kids outgrow Santa. I hate the financial pressure the season puts on people. Family, food, drink and the fantastic decorations are what make the season for me. I honestly wouldn't care if tomorrow everyone collectively decided that once the belief in Santa was gone, presents were no longer necessary for anyone. I'd still love Christmas. The present part is only ten minutes on Christmas morning.

Lou Scaunt

Lou Scaunt wrote: »

You'd want to be some miserable prick to even suggest taking that away from children.

I never believed in Santa, and my younger siblings were told my Mam had to pay for the presents.
But I had great Christmases. And I love it, reckon I love it more than all the old humbugs who moan on and on about Christmas being for the kids...
It's not, it's much more and by teaching kids that it's not all about getting stuff, maybe they might enjoy Xmas for longer

Autonomous Cowherd

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Whilst I disagree that the Santa part is overdone, I totally agree that the commercial side of Christmas is way down the list of what makes the season special, at least once the kids outgrow Santa. I hate the financial pressure the season puts on people. Family, food, drink and the fantastic decorations are what make the season for me. I honestly wouldn't care if tomorrow everyone collectively decided that once the belief in Santa was gone, presents were no longer necessary for anyone. I'd still love Christmas. The present part is only ten minutes on Christmas morning.

Exactly.
We have an agreement that now that we are all grown up we do not give presents. We give each other gifts as and when we feel inspired during the Year. At Christmas, we share long walks, watch movies, cook great food and spend time with each other. And lights. I like the lights very much

I don't have kids but I've twin nephews aged seven, and they're just fizzing with excitement at going to Santas grotto and giving him their lists. They've been told to ask for one main gift and one surprise, and to put down two suggestions for gifts he might give to other children who have no toys. The last bit is to remind them that they're not the only kids in the world that Santa has to take care of.

I wouldn't see them robbed of that excitement for anything. They might be a little upset when they find out, but it's nothing compared to the pleasure and thrill of getting up and finding magical presents under the tree, and knowing the carrots they've left out have been enjoyed by a flight crew of magical reindeer, or that a jolly man who loves all kids snuck into their living room to eat their cookies and give them special rewards for being great little boys. The whole family gets such a lovely kick out of seeing them so happy.

You'd have to be some killjoy to never let them experience that.

Tombo2001

People are responsible for what happens in their own house. Christmas is what you want it to be, there.

I think people can get a bit snobbish and uppity about the whole thing, just as with many other elements of parenting.

The same parents who sneer at a big Christmas will also probably sneer at a big communion, a fancy holiday, too many gadgets in the house, the cost of replica soccer jerseys, party bags at birthdays.

There is no right or wrong way to do it; the most important thing is that you stay true to yourself. Passing comment on how other people do it is really just saying "I do it a better way, look at how great I am...."

_Jamie_

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Being a sceptic since a very early age, I basically ridiculed my parents

Let's just stop you there... no you didn't. Internet big talk if ever I saw it.

darkpagandeath

Santa is a gender fluid being. An African American white dwarf.

_Jamie_

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Let's just stop you there... no you didn't. Internet big talk if ever I saw it.

I can picture him now.

Autonomous Cowherd

Tombo2001 wrote: »

People are responsible for what happens in their own house. Christmas is what you want it to be, there.

I think people can get a bit snobbish and uppity about the whole thing, just as with many other elements of parenting.

The same parents who sneer at a big Christmas will also probably sneer at a big communion, a fancy holiday, too many gadgets in the house, the cost of replica soccer jerseys, party bags at birthdays.

There is no right or wrong way to do it; the most important thing is that you stay true to yourself. Passing comment on how other people do it is really just saying "I do it a better way, look at how great I am...."

I don't think people are sneering, just expressing themselves.
I did find it tricky as a very low income person to help my children understand when they were small how come ''Santa'' brought computers to the children sitting beside them in class, and not to them. I think a lot of people have gone through that. I think the loan sharks who make merry at Christmas are delighted for the ''Big'' Christmases that people feel obliged to provide. I think the whole commercial aspect should be knocked on the head. It's supposed to be about the birth of Jesus (and I'm not even a Christian) and the Return of the Light. It is - in and of itself - a very magical time.

GreenFolder2

emeldc wrote: »

You must be great crack

Ever hear of sarcasm or satire?

inforfun

I think there are other fairy tales kids should be kept away from\ told about that it doesnt exist. Would do the world a lot of good.

whoopsadoodles

inforfun wrote: »

I think there are other fairy tales kids should be kept away from\ told about that it doesnt exist. Would do the world a lot of good.

Oh don't start.

Flippin Nora.

_Jamie_

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Exactly.
We have an agreement that now that we are all grown up we do not give presents. We give each other gifts as and when we feel inspired during the Year. At Christmas, we share long walks, watch movies, cook great food and spend time with each other. And lights. I like the lights very much

My parents, sister and I have all had a tough few years financially so this year we all agreed to just give each other token gifts. I'm baking them all biscuits. Seriously, that's it. And they won't be spending any more than that either. We are all relieved, to be honest, and it's great to have the weight of worrying about money lifted. We will all chip in for the Christmas food and I guarantee this Christmas will be as great as all the ones that came before.

Another thing that I object to that has people saying 'Bah, humbug' to me is all the different Kris Kindles that people are expected to take part in. Sure that work Secret Santa is "only" €20, but €20 isn't inconsiderable when your finances are already stretched to breaking point. And of course, nobody wants to pipe up in work that they are broke. See? Pressure. And things like work Secret Santas are what really highlight to me the pointless commercialism of Christmas. Going out to buy a present you don't want to buy for somebody whose tastes you don't know and therefore probably won't even like what you buy them? Pure distilled pointless commercialism.

nelly17

Its something I've been wondering myself recently - would my children appreciate knowing that all of this stuff actually came from me and my wife and we worked hard to provide it. Honestly I don't know.

GreenFolder2

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Ever hear of sarcasm or satire?

Sarcasm: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.

Satire: Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

Yeah, some craic.

osarusan

vicwatson wrote: »

Huh? I thought Coca Cola invented him

That's what they want you to think.

Autonomous Cowherd

People seem to imagine that a child who does not have Santa could not have a magical time. It's just not true. It depends upon what we train them to be aware of from their earliest days. The Solstice - with the shortest day giving way to the return of the light - is an awe-inspiring astronomical occasion. A child when small will love to look at the sky at night with a parent sitting with them in candle- light. There are great old stories from Northern Europe about Santa Clause style figures, the shamans and so on - there is a wealth of mystery, magic and make believe that can be brought into a child's life.... without resorting to expensive plastic goods made by enslaved child labour in the developing world.
Lol, sorry, hehe, I let out my inner demon at the end.

nozzferrahhtoo

Amazing the strong reactions to people who do NOT do the Santa thing. Some quite judgmental and barbed remarks being flung. When in fact generally it is no big deal really. The parents who do not do it, simply do not do it, and the world doesn't end and they are not the awful people some here would want them to be.

DredFX wrote: »

Anybody here resent their parents for maintaining the great Christmas masquerade? I sure as hell do.

I am divided on the issue to myself. So I would never presume to tell other parents what they "should" do or not do like the thread title suggests.

I just know that I myself do not do the Santa thing with my children. I see no need or real benefit to doing it at all. So I simply do not do it.

I never presume to tell other parents they shouldn't do it, but I do have to say that when other parents..... usually on line not to my face........ hear I do not do it.... the kind of things they sometimes say in response is pure unadulterated nonsense.

Everything from "abusing my children in the aim of furthering my anti religion agenda" to "taking the magic and joy of Christmas away" to "destroying the children's imagination and fantasy life"..... not one thing they say holds up to any scrutiny or the remotest application of intellect or is remotely actually true.

I suspect this is mostly from what could be called the "Diverging from the Narrative" effect. Because what they spew makes little sense otherwise.

But no I do not judge anyone who DOES do the Santa Narrative, nor do I have any issue with my parents for doing ti with me. I simply see no reason why I should do it myself, so I do not.

I think what these "scientists" are saying is hyperbolic at best. But the core point made.... that children look to us with trust as a source of truth and learning and guidance..... and this can all be shaken when they find out you lied to them about a large chunk of their world view...... is not something I would simply dismiss with the wave of a hand either.

_Brian wrote: »

Kids are only kids for a very short time, where's the harm in a bit of make believe that reaches into their home and makes them happy.

Well see that would be the crux of it for me. I engage in make believe with the kids ALL THE TIME. Like daily. When you write something like you do above you make it sound like the rest of the year is entirely devoid of such pleasures, and sure why not let a bit of it in at Christmas to off set the desolation of the rest of the year.

Make believe and imagination and wonder and magic and fun and joy is RIFE on a daily basis in my house with my kids. So I simply have no requirement to bring some commercial pre-packaged nonsense version into my house annually in order to substitute something that is already there.

And what is more all of those things are attained perfectly well without once ever having to convince the children that the thing we are engaging with is real. In fact quite often when we get really carried away with whatever narrative we are playing with..... it is them that remind ME that it is all make believe.... not the other way around. Which is always funny to watch when we are lost in a fantasy narrative and they feel it is me that might be taking it to seriously and believing it to be more than a game Cool kids they are.

_Brian wrote: »

I'm overwhelmingly greatful to my parents for all the fun Christmases we had as a family, proper magic times to look back on.

And I think that is a well meant and heartwarming foundation for the error you make above. I think a LOT of people like you have heart warming and lovely memories of it.

So when they think of parents NOT doing the santa thing they simply are imagining THEIR childhood simply MINUS the santa stuff. And they they assume that is what it must be like in the house of "the other".

But the reality is actually much different. It is not the same simply minus the Santa thing. We fill that "vacuum" with all kinds of other sources and modes of joy and wonder and play and imagination. And my children will likely look back on their Christmases with EVERY bit of gratitude and warmth that you do.

The sole and ONLY difference will be that nothing I employed to achieve that, unlike in your own childhood, required that my children actually believe something patently untrue to get there.

_Brian wrote: »

Far as I can see is only miserable pricks want to destroy the whole santa magic for young kids and I think they should be ashamed.

And as far as I can see nothing of the sort is true, and I hope the descriptions and corrections to your impression above benefit your judgement call in some way.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Children love fantasy.

They really do. So I have never felt compelled to take that from them by convincing them it is real. Allow them the exploration of fantasy by all means. I know I certainly do. Believing the fantasy real is simply not a requirement children actually have. I fear many people assume it is however. Quite falsely.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The other thing is that its a good way to give them possessions and control over things. In a gentle way, it gives them a bit of power in the parent-child relationship. This is my dolly, Santa gave it to me, I am in charge of it.

Yea one thing I have learned as a parent is that what children seek more than anything else is some kind of "control" over their world.

Much of their otherwise unusual behaviors and reactions can be perfectly well understood when you parse it through that little fact.

And most of the best parental advice I have ever received or heard is usually the advice that is grounded on giving the child the control, or the impression of control, over their world and environment.

But there is a multitude of ways to achieve that without having to sell them fantasy narratives.

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Kids innocence is lost all to quickly these days. Lets hold on to some of the mysteries and excitment for them.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson is asked time and time again, literally during every Q+A sessions he ever does after his talks, how to stimulate childrens interest in science and wonder at the world and the universe.

His answer is generally that children ALREADY have that. It is adults that are the problem because they have lost it.

One problem, I suspect, is that the mystery and wonder dries up if we are selling children solely things like Santa. Fantasy narratives that become the source of their wonder which they eventually grow out of and leave them with..... what?

So one thing I strive for myself, and I speak only for myself, is to stimulate mystery and wonder and excitement from the REAL WORLD rather than narratives they will grow out of. And it seems to work pretty well. The real world is awash with sources of wonder and amazement. No one needs to reach for the pre-packaged stuff if they do not want to. Their children are not going to lose out for it's absence.

There is another user on boards who has had some AMAZING descriptions of doing similar with his children. He, for example, Internet ordered one of those flowers that flowers relatively fast. Like in the right light it goes from closed bud to open flower in a mere minute or two. So he sits with his children one night around the closed up flower and turns on a particularly bright bulb.... and his kids he reports sat in wild eyed wonder and astonishment watching the flower and stalk shake with the effort of the flower blooming quickly before their eyes.

Or in another post recently he described cutting tiny windows into developing hens eggs and covering the hole with transparent tape. So now daily he and his kids observe and note the progress of the developing embryo into a fluffy yellow chick.

Now THAT is mystery and wonder and excitement and awe and imagination and beauty all rolled into one. I doubt his kids are going to look back on things like that and say "Awwww but when we got our gifts at christmas you did not inject wonder into our lives by telling them a magic fat man brought them!"

No I reckon they will be EQUALLY grateful to everyone else here who has those santa memories. Perhaps, I can at least dare to SUSPECT..... more so.

eviltwin wrote: »

How about everyone just fcuk off and mind their own business. I choose to do the whole Santa thing.

Who is NOT doing that exactly? I see nothing wrong with scientists and others like them putting out the information saying "Look, this thing here could be harmful for the following reasons......." and then leaving you to make YOUR choices.

Ensuring you have the best available data and evidence WHILE you make your choices is the exact opposite of impinging on those choices. Merely take the information, or leave it, as you wish. Why does anyone there need to proceed on a vector away from you in a sexual manner?

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I don't know anybody who resents their parents because they believed in santa

I do not know anyone who resented them LONG TERM, but I knew quite a few who resented them AT THE TIME.

Predominantly these were the children who believed for the longest. And their resentment stemmed from the fact that they suddenly realize all the other kids were in on the "truth" and they were not, and that sometimes those other kids were even laughing at them for their continuing belief.

And that social embarrassment and anger has to be directed somewhere, and naturally I guess that target usually ended up being the people who maintained the lie. Which is usually the parents.

But I certainly do not know anyone, I think, who failed to quickly recover from it and get over it. No LONG TERM resentment that I know of.

givyjoe wrote: »

The amount of buzz kills around here.. Christ.. must have been miserable and joyless around Christmas time in your houses.

Funny though how "musts" like this actually turn out to not just be false, but the exact opposite is true. `

Lou Scaunt wrote: »

You'd want to be some miserable prick to even suggest taking that away from children.

Why?

And also how can you "take away" something a child never had?

_Jamie_ wrote: »

My husband's brother believed until the first year of secondary school.

Hah I will see you that one and raise you the fact my brothers wife up to about age 20 thought that stars at night are the souls in heaven looking down.

DredFX

inforfun wrote: »

I think there are other fairy tales kids should be kept away from\ told about that it doesnt exist. Would do the world a lot of good.

Come off it. Red Riding Hood taught me to stay away from wolves in grandma's clothing. That's perennial advice.

_Jamie_

newacc2015 wrote: »

I don't think it is harmless fun though. There is plenty of studies that find children develop their spending habits at a very young age. I dont think it is particularly helpful for someone to be telling their 10/11 year old that a non-existent man brings them whatever they want rather than their parents hard work. How is a child supposed to be conservative around money when they dont know where it is being spent?

Dunno about anyone else but we were always told that Santa hadn't endless money to be spending on us so there was a limit. My memories on how they explained why some kids gets more stuff is a bit foggy though.

Shenshen

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Getting your period at 10 years old is one of the most traumatic experiences of a little girl's life. They're just finding out that they won't be a child for much longer.

Not exactly the time to be sitting them down and telling them "yeh, and another thing".

As I said, I'm not qualified here, as nobody ever pretended to me there was such a thing as Santa. But I don't know how I would feel in retrospect if my parents had let me get to that age actively trying to keep me ignorant. We had started sex ed in school the year before that.
Again, please don't get me wrong, but I suspect I would be quite creeped out about it now.

ScumLord

Candie wrote: »

I don't have kids but I've twin nephews aged seven, and they're just fizzing with excitement at going to Santas grotto and giving him their lists.

I have nephews too, if I told them they were going to a farm to see tractors, or a shipyard to go on a ship being built, or the airport to see the pilots, they'd be at least as excited if not more. Kids will get excited about any old nonsense. In fact, with one of them if I told him he could go to a shipyard and spend the day on a bridge he'd probably put a bullet in santas brain.

You'd have to be some killjoy to never let them experience that.

Kids in this country have no choice but to experience it. The santa thing is as much for the parents as it is the kids, like I said they could be doing just about anything else and having as much fun without us all having to maintain this consumermiss delusion.