Stopped by Gardaí with FCN

Kimbot

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've already sent in a customer complaint to the Garda Síochána traffic watch and the City Council. All road junction signage isn't the problem, it's this one junction that I know for a fact people are misinterpreting because I've seen it, second-guessed itf and fallen victim to it myself.

• That is absolutely true and I've missed it on other occasions as well (when you see something so often it's easy to overlook it), but it was my understanding that there would be a "No Right Turn" sign as well as the green arrow because many of those are accompanied by further lights so when I couldn't see that at the junction I assumed each time that a right turn was permitted.
  
  I was looking out the front window and the driver side window alternately making sure I was aware of the environment. The glare obstructed my view of the already dirty sign on the left-hand side. The "No Right Turn" sign was only on the left and it was well before the junction. As I admitted already, I have overlooked the arrow, mistaking it for a green light. Without the sign beneath it (as is on any other junction I know of), it's easy to mistake a shape, especially when there are other factors which would lead you to believe the contrary (NO "No Right Turn" sign on or near the visible traffic light).
  
  The arrow on the road is faded and was obstructed by the car in front of me. The sign is dirty and placed a stupid distance before the junction. The arrow, granted, was an oversight.
  
  Yeah, with my record of absolutely reckless behaviour on the roads I'm sure that's what any reasonable person would assume.

I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

You have admitted to taking an illegal turn for over 3 years so yeah you do break the law.

whippet

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

but it was my understanding that there would be a "No Right Turn" sign as well as the green arrow because many of those are accompanied by further lights so when I couldn't see that at the junction I assumed each time that a right turn was permitted.

Crux of the problem ... 'your understanding' .. ignorance isn't a defence in law. You need to brush up on your driving test theory and re-evaluate your own perception of what constitutes the rules of the road

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

As I admitted already, I have overlooked the arrow, mistaking it for a green light. Without the sign beneath it (as is on any other junction I know of), it's easy to mistake a shape, especially when there are other factors which would lead you to believe the contrary (NO "No Right Turn" sign on or near the visible traffic light).

You admit you made a mistake and didn't pay proper attention to the traffic signals .. you think it is simple to mistake a Green Arrow for a simple green light .. again this is no defence to what you will probably receive the points for.

By your own admission you have made an incorrect assumption and then not observed a visible illuminated traffic sign ... don't see how you'd have any hope in court arguing your case.

Save you self the time, money and dignity and chalk this one up to experience.

GM228

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've already sent in a customer complaint to the Garda Síochána traffic watch and the City Council.

I can understand your reason for sending a complaint to the Council regarding the dirty sign and it's placement, but what complaint have you got against the Gardaí?

IrishZeus

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've already sent in a customer complaint to the Garda Síochána traffic watch and the City Council. All road junction signage isn't the problem, it's this one junction that I know for a fact people are misinterpreting because I've seen it, second-guessed itf and fallen victim to it myself.

That is absolutely true and I've missed it on other occasions as well (when you see something so often it's easy to overlook it), but it was my understanding that there would be a "No Right Turn" sign as well as the green arrow because many of those are accompanied by further lights so when I couldn't see that at the junction I assumed each time that a right turn was permitted.

I was looking out the front window and the driver side window alternately making sure I was aware of the environment. The glare obstructed my view of the already dirty sign on the left-hand side. The "No Right Turn" sign was only on the left and it was well before the junction. As I admitted already, I have overlooked the arrow, mistaking it for a green light. Without the sign beneath it (as is on any other junction I know of), it's easy to mistake a shape, especially when there are other factors which would lead you to believe the contrary (NO "No Right Turn" sign on or near the visible traffic light).

The arrow on the road is faded and was obstructed by the car in front of me. The sign is dirty and placed a stupid distance before the junction. The arrow, granted, was an oversight.

Yeah, with my record of absolutely reckless behaviour on the roads I'm sure that's what any reasonable person would assume.


I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

Not going to go any further into this as you seem to have your mind made up. You clearly haven't heard what you wanted to hear when you asked the question and your posts since have been argumentative and contrary so:

All I would say is that you should sit back and consider that 99% of people on this forum think you're wrong and I'd be fairly sure a Judge would agree based on the points in my last post.

To be perfectly frank about it, you've admitted that you missed the signage for 3 years. You deserve the points and the fine that you're going to get in the next few days whether or not it was a genuine mistake - thats poor driving and observation by any standard irregardless of your other driving history.

And if you go to court with such a weak, ill-thought out and silly appeal then you deserve the extra points and the extra fine that I believe you will get. For the love of god, take the points and fine and walk away.

degsie

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've already sent in a customer complaint to the Garda Síochána traffic watch and the City Council. All road junction signage isn't the problem, it's this one junction that I know for a fact people are misinterpreting because I've seen it, second-guessed itf and fallen victim to it myself.

For contrast here is a junction where I've witnessed MANY drivers make an illegal right turn. Signs could not be more clear but drivers ignore them..

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

RayCun

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I think I have a fairly solid argument in the fact that I could have made the exact same turn legally at the set of lights just up the road so why would I have not done that if I was aware that the turn I was doing was illegal.

:pac::pac::pac::pac:
why do people speed when they'd get to the same place only a few minutes later obeying the law?
why do people go through red lights when they could go through them legally just a couple of minutes later?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

jonnycivic wrote: »

You have admitted to taking an illegal turn for over 3 years so yeah you do break the law.

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional; the junction was badly marked and there was intense glare which caused me to overlook the already bad signage. Somebody mentioned that missing a road sign is not sufficient excuse to appeal this but the inadequate markers mentioned above combined with the fact that I could just have done the same turn at the next junction up seems to me reasonable grounds for appeal.

The point of the thread was actually to ask if on the FCN Cancellation form I should tick "Detection Issue/Material Error" or "Exceptional Circumstances". Also to get advice from people who have been through the process before.

Stheno

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional; the junction was badly marked and there was intense glare which caused me to overlook the already bad signage. Somebody mentioned that missing a road sign is not sufficient excuse to appeal this but the inadequate markers mentioned above combined with the fact that I could just have done the same turn at the next junction up seems to me reasonable grounds for appeal.

The point of the thread was actually to ask if on the FCN Cancellation form I should tick "Detection Issue/Material Error" or "Exceptional Circumstances". Also to get advice from people who have been through the process before.

I think you'd have to use exceptional circumstances

GreenFolder2

Just pay it and move on.

You'll get a 15 second hearing in court and a way bigger fine.

I don't know if you've ever seen traffic court here? Your opportunity to contest the evidence will be very limited in terms of time and if there's clear evidence (which there is because of the traffic lights being two huge green again straight ahead arrows), in all likelihood you'll be hearing a gavel banging and the next step up in fines and penalty points being issued.

These judges don't really mess around or accept waffle.

GerryDerpy

Cant believe you have been making that turn for 3 years and still try blame someone else. LMAO

It comes across like you're so embarrassed to have been driving so obliviously that you can't possible admit to it.

You didn't mean to kill anyone, you made a mistake. No take responsibility for that mistake like an adult.

blackwhite

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional; the junction was badly marked and there was intense glare which caused me to overlook the already bad signage. Somebody mentioned that missing a road sign is not sufficient excuse to appeal this but the inadequate markers mentioned above combined with the fact that I could just have done the same turn at the next junction up seems to me reasonable grounds for appeal.

The point of the thread was actually to ask if on the FCN Cancellation form I should tick "Detection Issue/Material Error" or "Exceptional Circumstances". Also to get advice from people who have been through the process before.

What's your excuse for overlooking the "bad signing" all the other times over the past three years? Perpetual sunshine?

?Cee?view

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional

Irrelevant, and not grounds for an appeal. Traffic offences are what's known as strict liability offences. Your intention is irrelevant with strict liability. If you break the rule, you're guilty.

Francie Barrett

I am very surprised you are appealing this. You were caught committing a traffic violation fair and square.

degsie

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I am very surprised you are appealing this. You were caught committing a traffic violation fair and square.

You need to read the thread, there was sun and dirty signs....oh, and the cops had the audacity to do their job

GM228

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional; the junction was badly marked and there was intense glare which caused me to overlook the already bad signage. Somebody mentioned that missing a road sign is not sufficient excuse to appeal this but the inadequate markers mentioned above combined with the fact that I could just have done the same turn at the next junction up seems to me reasonable grounds for appeal.

The point of the thread was actually to ask if on the FCN Cancellation form I should tick "Detection Issue/Material Error" or "Exceptional Circumstances". Also to get advice from people who have been through the process before.

OP you are very naieve if you think they would be considered reasonable grounds for appeal, as I already stated a judge will not usually accept the "I didn't see it" excuse, especially when two other signs are present to back up the one you missed!

Also the fact that you could have just taken the turn legally up further is irrelevant, what could or should have been done is of no interest to a judge and will not be entertained, but if you believe they are good luck with that.

You should sit in the next sitting of your local District Court for traffic offences to get a dose of reality and see how the courts actually work and perhaps then you will pay up and move on.

Kimbot

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I did break the law in this case, but (if you read the thread) it was not intentional; the junction was badly marked and there was intense glare which caused me to overlook the already bad signage. Somebody mentioned that missing a road sign is not sufficient excuse to appeal this but the inadequate markers mentioned above combined with the fact that I could just have done the same turn at the next junction up seems to me reasonable grounds for appeal.

The point of the thread was actually to ask if on the FCN Cancellation form I should tick "Detection Issue/Material Error" or "Exceptional Circumstances". Also to get advice from people who have been through the process before.

No you havent only broken the law in this case, you have broken the law on this right turn for over 3 years now, how many times have you made that exact same turn?? 100 times, 200 times?? so you have continually broken the law and are now looking to blame others on your actions. YOU are the driver of the car, I know the road you linked, I have been on it tonnes of times and not once have I broken the no right turn on it because guess what..... I paid attention to the road and seen the signs! Its amazing that so many others can follow the rules of the road but you just cant accept your in the wrong! If you were not in the wrong then the guards would not have stopped you and issued you with a fine! Enjoy your larger fine at this point because youll never get it through your head that your lack or awareness on the road is a serious risk!

Marcusm

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

Full licence. Those four are gone next year before my insurance is up. Don't be worrying about me.

I think you might need to check again; if it goes to court, I think it's 5 points for the offence you committed. I'll pass over the snide comments you made earlier but you do need to be sure what the court outcome might be before deciding to head that route.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you might need to check again; if it goes to court, I think it's 5 points for the offence you committed. I'll pass over the snide comments you made earlier but you do need to be sure what the court outcome might be before deciding to head that route.

Depends on the actual charge, could be either 3 or 4 points on conviction.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

The Garda said "One point and a €45 fine" as he walked away from the car.

Professor Moriarty

jonnycivic wrote: »

No you havent only broken the law in this case, you have broken the law on this right turn for over 3 years now, how many times have you made that exact same turn?? 100 times, 200 times?? so you have continually broken the law and are now looking to blame others on your actions. YOU are the driver of the car, I know the road you linked, I have been on it tonnes of times and not once have I broken the no right turn on it because guess what..... I paid attention to the road and seen the signs! Its amazing that so many others can follow the rules of the road but you just cant accept your in the wrong! If you were not in the wrong then the guards would not have stopped you and issued you with a fine! Enjoy your larger fine at this point because youll never get it through your head that your lack or awareness on the road is a serious risk!

I often use the Douglas Road and I'm delighted that the Gardaí are monitoring people who try to turn right at that junction as it blocks up the road. As for a sympathetic hearing from a judge, well, no.

GM228

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

The Garda said "One point and a €45 fine" as he walked away from the car.

There is no €45 fine for the offence, minimum is €60 and 1 point.

Riva10

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. :cool:

FanadMan

Quite possibly if the OP and loads of others are illegally turning right at that junction, the Gardai or council might have gotten sick of it and have started clamping down.

baaba maal

OP, forget for a moment that the Gardaí stopped you on this particular occasion. By your own admission, over the last three years you have NEVER noticed the green traffic arrow and the white road arrow.

This is your actual issue- all the other externalities- low sun and other environmental conditions on the day, other drivers flashing lights to encourage the illegal action on another day- all irrelevant, all helping you to ignore this issue.

You have poor observational skills as a driver and may be more hazardous on the road, for yourself and others than you think. My suggestion is to cop the plea and book a one-off lesson with a recommended driving instructor (and, as a male I would advise the same whether you were male or female- in my book there isn't any difference in driving ability based on gender). I'm also not claiming to be the perfect driver, but on this issue, you are so far away from thinking properly about this situation that it is worth saying. I would be interested in your reasoning for how you never noticed (or possibly comprehended) what the arrows actually mean.

Ps- driving instructor just to observe your driving for a while and possibly offer some tips.

kingtut

I'm glad the police are starting to take note of this junction.
Had many a close call heading into town where some idiot going the opposite way turns right!!

edburg

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I got four speeding points in one day coming through Mallow because on the way up, the queue of cars I was in was overtaking a tractor which had pulled in (on the way down) and because the speed changed abruptly going into the village on the way back and I didn't slow down on time. There was no van visible on the road so I didn't know it until the following few days when the fine arrived, but a reliable friend from the area said she knows a Garda down there who sits in his living room pointing the bloody hairdrier out the window to rack up scores of fines.

Which road in to Mallow were driving on???

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

Depends on the actual charge, could be either 3 or 4 points on conviction.

I thought failure to obey a traffic signal (i.e. The green arrow) was 3 FCN or 5 on conviction.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

I thought failure to obey a traffic signal (i.e. The green arrow) was 3 FCN or 5 on conviction.

Yes failure to obey traffic lights is 3 or 5 on conviction, but Gardaí generally only use it for running reds (although it could be used in this instance), in the OPs case it would more likely be one the two I mentioned earlier.

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

Yes failure to obey traffic lights is 3 or 5 on conviction, but Gardaí generally only use it for running reds (although it could be used in this instance), in the OPs case it would more likely be one the two I mentioned earlier.

If she pleads that she couldn't drive safely because she couldn't see, one could only hope that the DJ would strike out or suggest that the Garda amend the summons for the more serious charge. We all make mistakes but the manner in which the OP is hanging onto their sense of entitlement is truly eye watering.

Fighting Tao

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I was looking out the front window and the driver side window alternately making sure I was aware of the environment.

Am I the only one that is terrified by this. Not driving in a manner to suit the conditions and then the observation or lack thereof. You do have mirrors and a passenger window to observe out of too. Seeing that you didn't see anything to the left would mean that you could easily have hit a cyclist or pedestrian that happened to stray onto the road. If I were you I'd count myself lucky if I got off with a penalty point or two and a fine. From everything you have said in this thread in my opinion you shouldn't even have the luxury of a licence.