Stopped by Gardaí with FCN

smelly sock

Appeal the thing.

Would a simple "don't do that again" not have sufficed.

Probably not the best thing to post on boards as all the wannabe coppers will come out of the wood work.

GreenFolder2

The traffic light was clearly displaying straight ahead only arrow. It's very obvious and visible, signs or not.

It's amazing how many people seem to think those are just a suggestion.

Stheno

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've got my FCN Cancellation form ready to go, surely be to God they'll have a response back to me before the end of the year. Do you go before a judge then? I have no idea, I've never done this before.


Well I got a fine on the way up and down and we didn't see any trace of a van either time and they have to be visible on the roadside so it seems plausible. Look, I paid those fines because I was speeding and I've driven responsibly since. I'm really annoyed that I made a genuine mistake because of poor road markings and glare precisely because I am a responsible road user and I don't want anyone else to make a similar mistake.


Not looking for support (I'm hardly traumatised over the event), just for the various different views and considerations I'd need to make going forward. I mostly got the view "you broke the law f you" in this thread but a lot of people have pointed out why they can see how I made the mistake too. The Garda saw me doing the illegal turn, so he would also have seen how I endangered nobody because I was left go by the opposing driver and proceeded at a very slow speed because of the poor visibility.

If anyone knew more about the process of appeals and going before judges and increased penalty points/fines etc. lots of terms have been bandied around but I still have no clue what to expect from all that. I rang the hotline earlier but they just told me to go to the website which had a link to the phone number for the hotline, which is why I decided to post here and get lots of internet warriors riled up and giving me their thoughts about what a terrible driver I am. The thread has given me a lot to think about going forward (ahem) but not much factual information about the process, which is what I actually wanted.

I've just read the process for requesting a cancellation you send the form to the office in Thurlestone and they decide whether or not to cancel it.

If they take more than 28 dates the fine will automatically increase. How much was the fine?

Kimbot

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I've got my FCN Cancellation form ready to go, surely be to God they'll have a response back to me before the end of the year. Do you go before a judge then? I have no idea, I've never done this before.


Well I got a fine on the way up and down and we didn't see any trace of a van either time and they have to be visible on the roadside so it seems plausible. Look, I paid those fines because I was speeding and I've driven responsibly since. I'm really annoyed that I made a genuine mistake because of poor road markings and glare precisely because I am a responsible road user and I don't want anyone else to make a similar mistake.


Not looking for support (I'm hardly traumatised over the event), just for the various different views and considerations I'd need to make going forward. I mostly got the view "you broke the law f you" in this thread but a lot of people have pointed out why they can see how I made the mistake too. The Garda saw me doing the illegal turn, so he would also have seen how I endangered nobody because I was left go by the opposing driver and proceeded at a very slow speed because of the poor visibility.

If anyone knew more about the process of appeals and going before judges and increased penalty points/fines etc. lots of terms have been bandied around but I still have no clue what to expect from all that. I rang the hotline earlier but they just told me to go to the website which had a link to the phone number for the hotline, which is why I decided to post here and get lots of internet warriors riled up and giving me their thoughts about what a terrible driver I am. The thread has given me a lot to think about going forward (ahem) but not much factual information about the process, which is what I actually wanted.

No your not a responsible driver, because for 3 years you have been taking an illegal right turn! I am trying to point out to you that you have to be more observant as a driver with regards your surroundings and your blaming glare for todays mishap only, glare is not responsible for every time you have taken that turn illegally.

pa990

Pay it and move on.

Or take a chance on your day on court.

It'll be cheaper to pay up

Cheensbo

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I

Well I got a fine on the way up and down and we didn't see any trace of a van either time and they have to be visible on the roadside so it seems plausible. Look, I paid those fines because I was speeding and I've driven responsibly since. I'm really annoyed that I made a genuine mistake because of poor road markings and glare precisely because I am a responsible road user and I don't want anyone else to make a similar mistake.

Its not plausible.

Only go safe have to be visible and clearly marked, while within pre defined areas.

The gardai don't have to be plainly visible going about their duties, nor in a predefined area nor do they have to use a marked van. It is often just a plain white van that catches you on behalf of the gardai.

Was the fine issued by gardai or go safe?

degsie

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I love all the untrue assumptions you make based on a simple statement. For one thing, I'm not a him (and I absolutely can't wait all the insults about my gender and our driving ability). I got four speeding points in one day coming through Mallow because on the way up, the queue of cars I was in was overtaking a tractor which had pulled in (on the way down) and because the speed changed abruptly going into the village on the way back and I didn't slow down on time. There was no van visible on the road so I didn't know it until the following few days when the fine arrived, but a reliable friend from the area said she knows a Garda down there who sits in his living room pointing the bloody hairdrier out the window to rack up scores of fines.

I'm looking forward to having a reasonable, civil exchange with the judge about the junction and voicing my concerns for other road users. Certain people here are so smug in their beliefs, it's really true what people say about the Irish as a nation of begrudgers. If I heard of somebody making an honest mistake at a junction, I'd support them in their appeal of it. God knows enough people get shafted by Gardaí while actual crimes go unheeded.

Bit of a chip on the shoulder for Gardai doing their job. You got caught twice and you blame anybody bar yourself :rolleyes:

05eaftqbrs9jlh

jonnycivic wrote: »

No your not a responsible driver, because for 3 years you have been taking an illegal right turn! I am trying to point out to you that you have to be more observant as a driver with regards your surroundings and your blaming glare for todays mishap only, glare is not responsible for every time you have taken that turn illegally.

The lack of a sign at the light and the dirty sign placed well back from the junction misled me on other occasions. It's actually as easy not to go down that road as there are alternative routes to turn right just up the road which will bring you out in the exact same place. Why would I break the law intentionally when I could do the same move legally just up ahead and not break the law? The junction was not visible and not clearly signed and I'm not going to repeat myself on that again. That is literally the entire reason I'm appealing the FCN.

Stheno wrote: »

I've just read the process for requesting a cancellation you send the form to the office in Thurlestone and they decide whether or not to cancel it.

If they take more than 28 dates the fine will automatically increase. How much was the fine?

I thought the Garda said €45, but this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055202174? says someone else was charged €80. I don't really mind about paying it or paying the extra, it's the penalty point that bothers me. Do you know if the amount of points increases?

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

The traffic light was clearly displaying straight ahead only arrow. It's very obvious and visible, signs or not.

It's amazing how many people seem to think those are just a suggestion.

Given that they often come with other arrows which illuminate when the turn is appropriate, it should be mandatory for there to be a "No X Turn" sign on the actual light at the junction, not a lorry-length behind it.


Thanks for the helpful information about the appeals process to the other posters.

Stheno

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I thought the Garda said €45, but this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055202174? says someone else was charged €80. I don't really mind about paying it or paying the extra, it's the penalty point that bothers me. Do you know if the amount of points increases?


.

It's usually 80 and goes up to 120 after 28 days. If you don't pay within 56 days you'll get a summons to court and the points double if the judge finds against you.

You'll have to wait to get the fcpn in the post before you can send in the cancellation form

GM228

OP, it's worth noting that generally a judge will not entertain a "I didn't see the sign" defence, I have seen this several times in the DC and twice in very recet times, and those cases have been where one sign was concerned, you missed three signs, my advice would to be pay up and get on with it. If you appeal and loose in front of a judge the result will be a higher fine, higher points and a criminal conviction.

This stems from a judgement of the UK High Court (which is mearly persuasive here) that not seeing a road sign is not a valid defence and therefore can't be entertained even when a sign is genuinely missed.

Marcusm

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

This is the Google Street View Co-Ordinates.

Even in Maps you can't see the sign as it skips past it because it's so far back from the junction. Sunglasses would just have made the shadows darker, as the other poster said.

"Pay the fine and move on" is something I won't be doing, because when I was handing my licence in the Garda took a look at the photos and said he'd be very interested to see how it turned out.

You need polarised glasses and anti glare protection. To be honest, the road sign is dirty but not overly covered in foliage. Failure to notice that you were at a light controlled junction which did not permit you to perform the manoeuvre means that he could have given you 3 points for that alone.

Tigger

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

The lack of a sign at the light and the dirty sign placed well back from the junction misled me on other occasions. It's actually as easy not to go down that road as there are alternative routes to turn right just up the road which will bring you out in the exact same place. Why would I break the law intentionally when I could do the same move legally just up ahead and not break the law? The junction was not visible and not clearly signed and I'm not going to repeat myself on that again. That is literally the entire reason I'm appealing the FCN.


I thought the Garda said €45, but this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055202174? says someone else was charged €80. I don't really mind about paying it or paying the extra, it's the penalty point that bothers me. Do you know if the amount of points increases?


Given that they often come with other arrows which illuminate when the turn is appropriate, it should be mandatory for there to be a "No X Turn" sign on the actual light at the junction, not a lorry-length behind it.


Thanks for the helpful information about the appeals process to the other posters.

a green arrow means you can go in the direction of the green arrow, thats as simple as i can explain it

https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.2747207,-8.4793648,3a,75y,11.67h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syafGDnUidm0fjT5eOjr4mQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

look here the trraight on and turn left green arrows are illuminated so you can go straight on or turn left
you cant turn right as there are no turn right green arrows illuminated

you will hve to explian to the judge that you dont know what a green arrow is and if you rae lucky will get 2 points and a €160 fine
if you are unlucky he might do you for driving with out due care and attention

Marcusm

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

It's a poorly-marked junction and an arrow light alone is not sufficient to mark that you cannot turn right, especially instances like mine where there is poor visibility because of intense sunlight. If there had been an arrow sign on the traffic light I might have stood some chance, but I'm appealing it because even as a regular user of that road I could not find a "no right turn sign" and I've actually looked.

It doesn't need to have the road sign at all as the traffic light is the control. You are fixated on one point which does not support your position. Additionally, your continued reference to being unable to see where you were proceeding because you didn't take sufficient precautions to deal with a low sun in the sky (nothing to do with daylight savings time and everything to do with the basic laws of physics) makes me wonder whether a driving without due care and attention summons might not be a better outcome.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

GM228 wrote: »

OP, it's worth noting that generally a judge will not entertain a "I didn't see the sign" defence, I have seen this several times in the DC and twice in very recet times, and those cases have been where one sign was concerned, you missed three signs, my advice would to be pay up and get on with it. If you appeal and loose in front of a judge the result will be a higher fine, higher points and a criminal conviction.

This stems from a judgement of the UK High Court (which is mearly persuasive here) that not seeing a road sign is not a valid defence and therefore can't be entertained even when a sign is genuinely missed.

It says that the fine has to be sent in with the FCN Cancellation form, if I do pay the fine and the appeal is accepted will I get that money back?

I can't actually find what he's doing me on in this list so I'll have to wait until tomorrow or Friday to see what the actual accusation is. I think I have a fairly solid argument in the fact that I could have made the exact same turn legally at the set of lights just up the road so why would I have not done that if I was aware that the turn I was doing was illegal.

Marcusm wrote: »

It doesn't need to have the road sign at all as the traffic light is the control. You are fixated on one point which does not support your position. Additionally, your continued reference to being unable to see where you were proceeding because you didn't take sufficient precautions to deal with a low sun in the sky (nothing to do with daylight savings time and everything to do with the basic laws of physics) makes me wonder whether a driving without due care and attention summons might not be a better outcome.

It's not my only point. The visibility was poor SO I was proceeding extremely cautiously, which the Garda would have seen as he approached the junction from the opposite direction to pursue me. Don't worry, you might get accepted into Templemore someday if you keep up your noble work here. They actually scout boards.ie looking for great candidates (I'm talking to all of you authoritarians. It could be you.), mostly ones who attack posters who are just looking for advice. You'll need to practice your accent for saying "step out of the ve-hicle" though.

coolbeans

Everyone makes mistakes, fair enough, but few things annoy me more than people not taking responsibility for their own screw ups, be it on the road, financially etc. Your rationale is pathetic to be honest.

Have I screwed up in the past? Yes. Did I get points? Yes. Did I blame everyone else and the Gardaí? No, I learned and moved on. It's a fair cop, just chalk it down and show a bit of humility. :cool:

Tigger

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

It says that the fine has to be sent in with the FCN Cancellation form, if I do pay the fine and the appeal is accepted will I get that money back?

I can't actually find what he's doing me on in this list so I'll have to wait until tomorrow or Friday to see what the actual accusation is. I think I have a fairly solid argument in the fact that I could have made the exact same turn legally at the set of lights just up the road so why would I have not done that if I was aware that the turn I was doing was illegal.

Proceeding beyond a traffic lane control sign other than in accordance with such sign or without yielding

Stheno

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

It says that the fine has to be sent in with the FCN Cancellation form, if I do pay the fine and the appeal is accepted will I get that money back?

I can't actually find what he's doing me on in this list so I'll have to wait until tomorrow or Friday to see what the actual accusation is. I think I have a fairly solid argument in the fact that I could have made the exact same turn legally at the set of lights just up the road so why would I have not done that if I was aware that the turn I was doing was illegal.

Failure to obey traffic lights?

It can take a week or two to get the letter in the post

blackwhite

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I'm really annoyed that I made a genuine mistake because of poor road markings and glare precisely because I am a responsible road user and I don't want anyone else to make a similar mistake.

There's been a permanent glare every time you've gone through this junction for the last three years?


Cork should really be marketing it's remarkable sunny weather to tourists more.

GM228

OP offence could be either failure to comply with mandatory signs at junctions or failure to comply with prohibitory signs, remember traffic lights, painted arrows and sign posts are all "traffic signs" at the end of the day.

Also you don't pay the fine when subject to an appeal, but note the appeal dosn't hold up the 28 and 56 days rule.

whippet

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

Well I got a fine on the way up and down and we didn't see any trace of a van either time and they have to be visible on the roadside so it seems plausible.

based upon your own accounts .. it is very plausible that it could have been a full on Multi Agency checkpoint and you wouldn't have seen it as the 24 hour low lying sun in Cork blinded you

IrishZeus

OP, not going to berate you as you seem to think you genuinely have a case. And fair enough, mistakes can happen, but:

• You missed the green arrow light
• You missed the white painted arrow
• You missed the sign
• You drove whilst not being able to see correctly i.e. without due care and attention
• You've been in the area 3 years and have never noticed this before - meaning that you either continually drive without due care and attention, or you actually don't understand road markings
• You took this illegal turn knowing full well that there was a legal option just up the road

Anyone of the reasons above would be enough to sink your appeal. If you go to court, the judge will have a field day and (in my own opinion) the minimum you will walk away with is twice the fine and twice the points.


I, along with almost everyone else here, would strongly advise you to pay the fine, take the points and walk away. You have nothing to gain from going to court.

JoeyJJ

Who is going to slip a camera into court and live stream this ?

ofcork

I agree the road sign is dirty but the traffic lights and the arrow on the road should be enough ,I have blown the horn on numerous occasions at people blocking traffic waiting to turn right there.

degsie

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I'm really annoyed that I made a genuine mistake because of poor road markings and glare precisely because I am a responsible road user and I don't want anyone else to make a similar mistake.

So do you see this as a test case and if you are successful you will petition all local councils and road authorities to review all road junction signage?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

degsie wrote: »

So do you see this as a test case and if you are successful you will petition all local councils and road authorities to review all road junction signage?

I've already sent in a customer complaint to the Garda Síochána traffic watch and the City Council. All road junction signage isn't the problem, it's this one junction that I know for a fact people are misinterpreting because I've seen it, second-guessed itf and fallen victim to it myself.

IrishZeus wrote: »

OP, not going to berate you as you seem to think you genuinely have a case. And fair enough, mistakes can happen, but:

• You missed the green arrow light

• That is absolutely true and I've missed it on other occasions as well (when you see something so often it's easy to overlook it), but it was my understanding that there would be a "No Right Turn" sign as well as the green arrow because many of those are accompanied by further lights so when I couldn't see that at the junction I assumed each time that a right turn was permitted.

  IrishZeus wrote: »

• You drove whilst not being able to see correctly i.e. without due care and attention
  I was looking out the front window and the driver side window alternately making sure I was aware of the environment. The glare obstructed my view of the already dirty sign on the left-hand side. The "No Right Turn" sign was only on the left and it was well before the junction. As I admitted already, I have overlooked the arrow, mistaking it for a green light. Without the sign beneath it (as is on any other junction I know of), it's easy to mistake a shape, especially when there are other factors which would lead you to believe the contrary (NO "No Right Turn" sign on or near the visible traffic light).

  IrishZeus wrote: »

• ...you actually don't understand road markings
  The arrow on the road is faded and was obstructed by the car in front of me. The sign is dirty and placed a stupid distance before the junction. The arrow, granted, was an oversight.

  IrishZeus wrote: »

• You took this illegal turn knowing full well that there was a legal option just up the road
  Yeah, with my record of absolutely reckless behaviour on the roads I'm sure that's what any reasonable person would assume.

IrishZeus wrote: »

Anyone of the reasons above would be enough to sink your appeal. If you go to court, the judge will have a field day and (in my own opinion) the minimum you will walk away with is twice the fine and twice the points.

I, along with almost everyone else here, would strongly advise you to pay the fine, take the points and walk away. You have nothing to gain from going to court.

I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

Stheno

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

Eh you already have four!!!!!! Two will put you up to six and your insurance will be affected.

Have you a full licence or a learners permit or an r plate?

jive

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

I may as well have two points as one as they'll come off my licence at the same time anyway and I never break the law while driving so it's not like I'm at risk of getting 12 of them or anything.

Yet you've been done for speeding and making an illegal right turn :pac:

You seem to be intent on pursuing it. Good luck, you'll need it. Be sure to let us know how you get on.

Gumbo

OP I believe you are in the wrong here and I think you will lose your appeal, but you are entitled to appeal it.

But please, will you post back up the outcome of the appeal of your dare...

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Stheno wrote: »

Eh you already have four!!!!!! Two will put you up to six and your insurance will be affected.

Have you a full licence or a learners permit or an r plate?

Full licence. Those four are gone next year before my insurance is up. Don't be worrying about me.

Theboinkmaster

Rogelio Dry Sympathy wrote: »

Well I got a fine on the way up and down and we didn't see any trace of a van either time and they have to be visible on the roadside so it seems plausible.

OP I think we've already established your eyesight isn't the best