Dairy chit chat II

Say my name

mf240 wrote: »

Ah he's full of shyte sometimes but sure arent we all. Think your taking him too seriously.

This is going to sound terrible.
But then hopefully anyone else reading it won't take him seriously either.

I'm not saying any more on the matter.
My opinions are known and this is sounding like one person trying to put down or out do another and that's what I'm not about.

kowtow

alps wrote:

Financial targets for a new era is a brave new look at what was out profit monitor...labour charge included, it will strive to report the farm financial performance in profit,cash flow, and return on asset terms. Most of the current inputs exist on the old PM input sheets, but will also need asset value and drawings to complete...

Very pleased to hear this. Coming from outside farming I have never been able to overcome my surprise that so many industry metrics are driven by the old comparative per ha return models.

If it doesn't work for pigs and poultry it'll fall short for dairy in this day and age.

Plenty of justified arguments about what should or shouldn't be where but a new, more grown up, basis of on farm accounting can only be a good thing in my opinion.

Timmaay

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1685139601537385&id=1161444260573591

Some top notch advice here!

GrasstoMilk

Where on ICBF can you find the average lactation length of your herd and the percentage of each lactation within the herd?

mahoney_j

Timmaay wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1685139601537385&id=1161444260573591

Some top notch advice here!

Love his articles ,always thought provoking

yosemitesam1

Say my name wrote: »

Ah I don't like picking on anyone. Genuinely.
I've been on the receiving end myself under a different username.
But I don't get all the hatred for (and glee shown about anything negative in) irish agriculture more specifically dairy farming.
I'm proud of what I do day in day out.

I just don't get it.
Realism yes. But ****e. No.

Nobody hates Irish agriculture, it's the whole system that has sprung up around it is what people have a problem with.
The constant bombardment of look at how great we are and the constant drive for more expansion/intensification from the likes of teagasc, bord bia, dafm etc. But yet no one is allowed question any of this without being a naysayer.
There's plenty of questions that deserve answering before the country is up to it's neck in cows like where is all the nitrogen going? What are the long-term effects on soil? And is it really worth feeding a few Chinese babies if wildlife/biodiversity in general all take a big hit in the process?

If you keep reading eventually you will come to realise that certain processes have to be respected and allowed to occur if you're not going to degrade the world around you as land use is intensified. It's only dairy that is on this drive for intensification hence why it gets most of the focus.


‘It is the first business of every farmer to reduce the fertility of the soil by removing the
largest crops of which the soil is capable; but ultimate failure results unless provision is
made for restoring and maintaining productiveness. Every landowner should adopt for his
land a system of farming that is permanent – a system under which the land becomes better
not poorer’

Snowfire

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Nobody hates Irish agriculture, it's the whole system that has sprung up around it is what people have a problem with.
The constant bombardment of look at how great we are and the constant drive for more expansion/intensification from the likes of teagasc, bord bia, dafm etc. But yet no one is allowed question any of this without being a naysayer.
There's plenty of questions that deserve answering before the country is up to it's neck in cows like where is all the nitrogen going? What are the long-term effects on soil? And is it really worth feeding a few Chinese babies if wildlife/biodiversity in general all take a big hit in the process?

If you keep reading eventually you will come to realise that certain processes have to be respected and allowed to occur if you're not going to degrade the world around you as land use is intensified. It's only dairy that is on this drive for intensification hence why it gets most of the focus.




‘It is the first business of every farmer to reduce the fertility of the soil by removing the
largest crops of which the soil is capable; but ultimate failure results unless provision is
made for restoring and maintaining productiveness. Every landowner should adopt for his
land a system of farming that is permanent – a system under which the land becomes better
not poorer’

Bring back the quotas....:rolleyes:

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Nobody hates Irish agriculture, it's the whole system that has sprung up around it is what people have a problem with.
The constant bombardment of look at how great we are and the constant drive for more expansion/intensification from the likes of teagasc, bord bia, dafm etc. But yet no one is allowed question any of this without being a naysayer.
There's plenty of questions that deserve answering before the country is up to it's neck in cows like where is all the nitrogen going? What are the long-term effects on soil? And is it really worth feeding a few Chinese babies if wildlife/biodiversity in general all take a big hit in the process?

If you keep reading eventually you will come to realise that certain processes have to be respected and allowed to occur if you're not going to degrade the world around you as land use is intensified. It's only dairy that is on this drive for intensification hence why it gets most of the focus.


‘It is the first business of every farmer to reduce the fertility of the soil by removing the
largest crops of which the soil is capable; but ultimate failure results unless provision is
made for restoring and maintaining productiveness. Every landowner should adopt for his
land a system of farming that is permanent – a system under which the land becomes better
not poorer’

I'll try and address a few points.

The promotion of Irish agriculture all over the world.
Why shouldn't it be promoted and sung from the rafters of how great and efficient this little country is at producing quality assured food. We're an exporting nation every farmer worth their weight in salt should be promoting their produce.
We've a unique farming system here on a world stage and it should be differentiated from the rest.

The Chinese babies or population.
Why shouldn't they buy our products if they want to. It's their choice and I wouldn't be stopping anyone from buying my product if they want to. They've more money available now and have become a discerning shopper and I'd feel pride that they'd pick my produce over any other product from anywhere else in the world.

On the biodiversity.
I can't see why dairy farming and a healthy biodiversity can't go hand in hand.
I started up a "what's on my ditch" thread or something to that effect in a previous life here and you should have a look through my posts.

On the nitrogen.
New grass varieties are able to grow more on less n inputs. You just have to keep the pH p and k right and as some posters are finding out now your trace elements too.
For the first time in the history of that soil it's ability to grow crops has been improved exponentially.
I've a reseeding policy in place here and I can see the benefits immensely.
That reseed picture I put on the pictures thread. That got no nitrogen since the 15th Sept and you can see how green it is and I've got a grazing off in Oct.

kowtow

Say my name wrote: »

I'll try and address a few points.

The promotion of Irish agriculture all over the world.
Why shouldn't it be promoted and sung from the rafters of how great and efficient this little country is at producing quality assured food. We're an exporting nation every farmer worth their weight in salt should be promoting their produce.
We've a unique farming system here on a world stage and it should be differentiated from the rest.

The Chinese babies or population.
Why shouldn't they buy our products if they want to. It's their choice and I wouldn't be stopping anyone from buying my product if they want to. They've more money available now and have become a discerning shopper and I'd feel pride that they'd pick my produce over any other product from anywhere else in the world.

On the biodiversity.
I can't see why dairy farming and a healthy biodiversity can't go hand in hand.
I started up a "what's on my ditch" thread or something to that effect in a previous life here and you should have a look through my posts.

On the nitrogen.
New grass varieties are able to grow more on less n inputs. You just have to keep the pH p and k right and as some posters are finding out now your trace elements too.
I've a reseeding policy in place here and I can see the benefits immensely.

I don't think anyone is against the promotion of Irish agriculture around the world, and - indeed - at home. Farming is woven into the very fabric of this country and we are - and always have been - good farmers as a nation.

As far as efficiency is concerned, so much depends on how you define it - I for one was never convinced by the single-track promotion of "cheaper milk from grass" if only because - and I am sure I pointed this out in 2013 - the only thing that will lead to is more expensive grass, if ever we learn to include the cost of it in our calculations.

The idea of Ireland as a bargain basement producer of commodity milk just doesn't sit well with me - why? - because our milk and our stockmanship and our farming ethics are already much better than that and sometimes go unrewarded in financial terms. Focusing on a premium price for our premium product is vital, and as butter is teaching us, we really shouldn't have to rely on powder and fashionable whey derivatives to capture margin.

Where baby powder is concerned Ireland is an interesting case because we are unusual in the degree to which formula is accepted and used in the home market. In many European countries it is regarded as a necessary evil - and promotion in third world countries is a big negative - for investors at least. Nevertheless, our track record in producing healthy infant formula is hard earned and we should surely exploit within reason.

Biodiversity and Nitrogen are both part of a much bigger debate. Personally I think it a little odd that the amount of land in organic production is so low here. I think the move to organic foods cuts deeper and wider across society than we previously thought, and I think we ignore it at our peril. I am suspicious of "green-washing" - a trap I think we sometimes fall into too easily - but I'm equally conscious that it would take me long years to be good enough to farm organically myself and until that time I might best sit quietly on the sidelines.

In my experience it is not the vigorous promotion, or celebration, of the dairy 'boom' which alarms people but the willingness to dismiss those who look at the industry from a different angle, or step up to question the business model, or the figures, or raise reasonably concerns about environmental impact etc.

It was interesting to see farmer reaction to the recent citizens assembly
- many farmers think, it seems, that we have the "wrong type of citizens" - not well educated in the needs of farmers. As farmers we may be right, or we may be wrong, on the specifics - but few debates have every been won by dismissing the opposition as poorly informed. We need to win the hearts and minds of the public, not attack them.

Mooooo

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Where on ICBF can you find the average lactation length of your herd and the percentage of each lactation within the herd?

does the dairy cow report have a summary in it?

straight

Have any of ye used calf clear. It looks like colostrum in a capsule to me. Seems convenient and I'm thinking of giving it a try

yosemitesam1

Say my name wrote: »

On the biodiversity.
I can't see why dairy farming and a healthy biodiversity can't go hand in hand.
I started up a "what's on my ditch" thread or something to that effect in a previous life here and you should have a look through my posts.

On the nitrogen.
New grass varieties are able to grow more on less n inputs. You just have to keep the pH p and k right and as some posters are finding out now your trace elements too.
I've a reseeding policy in place here and I can see the benefits immensely.
That reseed picture I put on the pictures thread. That got no nitrogen since the 15th Sept and you can see how green it is and I've got a grazing off in Oct.

The two biggest impacts on biodiversity are coming from poor management of ditches and a lack of species within swards. Both could be tackled easily and there are plenty of intensive farmers with good quality ditches. But as far as many insects are concerned its not enough. Because they have such a small foraging distance they need sources of food within a field. A ryegrass monoculture offers nothing to the majority of insects.
It also means that even on a small scale, insect populations become isolated from one another, which leads to localised extinctions (which would be perfectly normal only for the supply of new coloniser's is gone so they're unlikely to return).
That loss of insects feeds up into losses of birds etc also due to a lack of food. The only way around this is to move away from the current system.

The new grass varieties are getting more reliant on fertilizer. Older varieties were able to access what they needed if it wasn't freely available because they could grow bigger root systems and interact better with soil microbes. This costs yield however and all the yield increases seen in modern varieties are really redistributions of yield away from the soil to aboveground. This is why intensive production is leafing to reduced soil carbon and increases in soil bulk density (compaction starting from the very foundation of where soil gets it's strength).
But these new grass varieties are not leading to any increases in nitrogen use efficiency either. For every kg of nitrogen applied, less than 30% actually makes it into protein sold off the farm.

Gawddawggonnit

alps wrote: »

Bet he presented us as a shining light at that conference...

Lol.
I’m mildly surprised that the weather is so bad with ye seeing as I blew so much sunshine up your collective asses on Monday night. It suited me to do so.
We were to listen to an envoy from Paris on how deeper and stricter regulations were for our own good.
So, after acknowledging the spirit and general thrust of his speech, I proceeded to explain how Ireland, as far back as 2011, recognised the need for scale and supported the farmers with grants, tax breaks etc. etc etc.

A few short years ago I remember some often heated discussions on here about scale...breaking a gap into the neighboring farm is now a national pastime...

I’ve been personally lambasted here for trying to have an open and mature discussion about the elephant in the room. Enough.

I posted about an investigative documentary on Lactalis, thinking that it might provoke some conversation on the power of big processors and big Ag...God no! I’m having a go! Again,enough.

Whilst I was being entertained at the French courts yesterday Leo Varadkar was at the Eu Parliament firmly supporting the union. It was widely reported here that he was called out on the environment...was it reported on Irish news?
A pokey anonymous forum like Boards.ie, is, I would suggest, a lot less public than the Eu Parliament...

As for Baghdad Bob and the flat earth society I would suggest they look up the difference between a Eu directive and a Eu regulation.

Water John

Varadkar being called out on environment and GHG emissions was highlighted here, FYI, and correctly so.

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

The two biggest impacts on biodiversity are coming from poor management of ditches and a lack of species within swards. Both could be tackled easily and there are plenty of intensive farmers with good quality ditches. But as far as many insects are concerned its not enough. Because they have such a small foraging distance they need sources of food within a field. A ryegrass monoculture offers nothing to the majority of insects.
It also means that even on a small scale, insect populations become isolated from one another, which leads to localised extinctions (which would be perfectly normal only for the supply of new coloniser's is gone so they're unlikely to return).
That loss of insects feeds up into losses of birds etc also due to a lack of food. The only way around this is to move away from the current system.

The new grass varieties are getting more reliant on fertilizer. Older varieties were able to access what they needed if it wasn't freely available because they could grow bigger root systems and interact better with soil microbes. This costs yield however and all the yield increases seen in modern varieties are really redistributions of yield away from the soil to aboveground. This is why intensive production is leafing to reduced soil carbon and increases in soil bulk density (compaction starting from the very foundation of where soil gets it's strength).
But these new grass varieties are not leading to any increases in nitrogen use efficiency either. For every kg of nitrogen applied, less than 30% actually makes it into protein sold off the farm.

Not sure where you're getting the 30% figure from.
Be careful with studies. There's loads of variables no doubt not accounted for in that study.
Grass varieties, grass management, soil type, cow type, cow feeding regime, cow management, parasite management, fertilizing regime, weather.

You know yourself but you always have to question a study and see if there's other studies with the same results from different sources.

I wouldn't be as concerned as you with plant sequestering carbon in the soil as frankly I think you can't protect it in the soil. It's always at risk of disappearing to the atmosphere. I'd be concentrating more on mineral based soil capture be that from basalt dust spreading or I'll go back to it again treated biochar stable carbon starting a chain reaction of carbon capture.

This whole carbon stuff is a scam if you ask me but as farmers we'll just have to roll with it and show the rest of society up.
The only benefit for carbon capture in soils and crop yield increases imo seems to be the routes I outlined.

Water John

One problem with 'carbon is a scam thing', is that the penalties done the line will be related to this.

Say my name

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Lol.
I’m mildly surprised that the weather is so bad with ye seeing as I blew so much sunshine up your collective asses on Monday night. It suited me to do so.
We were to listen to an envoy from Paris on how deeper and stricter regulations were for our own good.
So, after acknowledging the spirit and general thrust of his speech, I proceeded to explain how Ireland, as far back as 2011, recognised the need for scale and supported the farmers with grants, tax breaks etc. etc etc.

A few short years ago I remember some often heated discussions on here about scale...breaking a gap into the neighboring farm is now a national pastime...

I’ve been personally lambasted here for trying to have an open and mature discussion about the elephant in the room. Enough.

I posted about an investigative documentary on Lactalis, thinking that it might provoke some conversation on the power of big processors and big Ag...God no! I’m having a go! Again,enough.

Whilst I was being entertained at the French courts yesterday Leo Varadkar was at the Eu Parliament firmly supporting the union. It was widely reported here that he was called out on the environment...was it reported on Irish news?
A pokey anonymous forum like Boards.ie, is, I would suggest, a lot less public than the Eu Parliament...

As for Baghdad Bob and the flat earth society I would suggest they look up the difference between a Eu directive and a Eu regulation.

Your a great man for the "debates" and you have a great method of looking for the "debates".
Take from that what you will.
Probably a compliment.

yosemitesam1

Say my name wrote: »

Not sure where you're getting the 30% figure from.
Be careful with studies. There's loads of variables no doubt not accounted for in that study.
Grass varieties, grass management, soil type, cow type, cow feeding regime, cow management, parasite management, fertilizing regime, weather.

You know yourself but you always have to question a study and see if there's other studies with the same results from different sources.

I wouldn't be as concerned as you with plant sequestering carbon in the soil as frankly I think you can't protect it in the soil. It's always at risk of disappearing to the atmosphere. I'd be concentrating more on mineral based soil capture be that from basalt dust spreading or I'll go back to it again treated biochar stable carbon starting a chain reaction of carbon capture.

This whole carbon stuff is a scam if you ask me but as farmers we'll just have to roll with it and show the rest of society up.
The only benefit for carbon capture in soils and crop yield increases imo seems to be the routes I outlined.

Do the sums re nitrogen on your own farm.
Total milk protein sold divided by 6.25 to give kg of nitrogen sold versus total bought in feed protein divided by 6.25 added to nitrogen applied.
Add in live weight protein also if you want. 9% of livewieght divided by 6.25.
It's very hard for it to be raised as long as large amounts of n are applied.

Soil carbon is essential if you want a healthy soil. It's what gives a soil strength and allows it to recover structure when damaged. Also as it's continuously being turned over it gives a stable supply of nutrients to plants and microbes

yosemitesam1

kowtow wrote: »

but I'm equally conscious that it would take me long years to be good enough to farm organically myself and until that time I might best sit quietly on the sidelines.

A man on here once said "grass, ffs it grows in the middle of the road" ☺

kowtow

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

A man on here once said "grass, ffs it grows in the middle of the road" ☺

It does - and thank God it does - because with the fields so wet that's the only place we've been managing to get the slurry out.

Gawddawggonnit

Sh1t. Happens. Everywhere.

Gawddawggonnit

Eurocrats just can’t help themselves...

Has even one person in Ireland suggested that Ireland throws its hat in the ring with UK?
Should be worth a national discussion anyway.



Source. La France Agricole. Sister company of Farmers Weekly.

Reggie.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Eurocrats just can’t help themselves...

Has even one person in Ireland suggested that Ireland throws its hat in the ring with UK?
Should be worth a national discussion anyway.



Source. La France Agricole. Sister company of Farmers Weekly.

Sorry can't read bloody French

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Eurocrats just can’t help themselves...

Has even one person in Ireland suggested that Ireland throws its hat in the ring with UK?
Should be worth a national discussion anyway.



Source. La France Agricole. Sister company of Farmers Weekly.

They saying in context of the amount of powder Europe should cap production? Long time since I read anything in french

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Soil carbon is essential if you want a healthy soil. It's what gives a soil strength and allows it to recover structure when damaged. Also as it's continuously being turned over it gives a stable supply of nutrients to plants and microbes

I'm aware this is going off topic so apologies.
Just an article that yose and others might be interested in.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BDLandTrust/status/954310996750929921/photo/1

Gawddawggonnit

Reggie. wrote: »

Sorry can't read bloody French

Become a Legionnaire...:)

Gawddawggonnit

Mooooo wrote: »

They saying in context of the amount of powder Europe should cap production? Long time since I read anything in french

“ The European Commission absolutely wants to halt the increase in European production...
.....the Commission will get rid of stocks at a lower (and lower) price until the average milk price gets to a level where it doesn’t boost production...”


I suppose that they’ll organise droughts in Nz and the US to equal things up a little....
You couldn’t make it up. Quotas abolished...?
Ffs.

The other article is very relevant because it links nicely as to *why* they need to control production, ie environment. The carryon of the Dutch is amazing. The expense that they go to...way too rich for my blood anyhow.

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

“ The European Commission absolutely wants to halt the increase in European production...
.....the Commission will get rid of stocks at a lower (and lower) price until the average milk price gets to a level where it doesn’t boost production...”


I suppose that they’ll organise droughts in Nz and the US to equal things up a little....
You couldn’t make it up. Quotas abolished...?
Ffs.

The other article is very relevant because it links nicely as to *why* they need to control production, ie environment. The carryon of the Dutch is amazing. The expense that they go to...way too rich for my blood anyhow.

It's this recycling of debt with the Dutch, of im not mistaken, they have so much if they failed the banks would go with them

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

It's this recycling of debt with the Dutch, of im not mistaken, they have so much if they failed the banks would go with them

It's like Government debt, it's never paid off just refinanced year after year in the hope that inflation reduces it to manageable levels.

Mooooo

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