Is it OK to leave a big dog outdoors in this weather?

Bells21

Sleeper12 wrote:

Here's what you seem to be missing. Behavioural experts (dog trainers) train dogs to go against their natural instinct. Now I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this because we want them as manageable pets but if humans vanished from the earth tomorrow morning what would the dog population be like? You'd find them hunting in packs. Think of how puppys play. Ever seen them get their favourite teddy toy in their mouth & shake their head from side to side. Can be very cute looking but this is mother nature teaching the pet dog how to kill a rabbit to feed itself. We wouldn't be gone off this planet too long before their true instincts kicks in.

Well my dogs should be morbidly obese if that is the case. They enjoy playing with their toys in this way but what happens when they find a pheasant, rat or squirrel in the garden? They run the other way!! Yes it is most likely a throw back to behaviours before they were domesticated but there has been an enormous amount of change in dogs behaviour, environment etc since then.
Dogs that are left in the garden with little interaction are the ones who are most likely to cause disturbance by barking or develop behavioural problems. Where we live 6 of the house have dogs, 5 of those houses have dogs who have access to outdoors but are mostly indoor dogs. One house has two dogs who spend the day locked on a 'dog run'(they can barely move in it never mind run) and those two dogs are the only two dogs you can hear barking all night every night.

Mooooo

Broken Hearted Road wrote: »

I have a beautiful pet dog. As a new puppy (she would have been about 5/6/7 months old. We got her a kennel for outside because we didn't know any better. We thought, it's dog, it lives outside.

The dog never took to it once. She whined and barked and chewed holes in her kennel. During the days she was brought for walks and allowed to ramble but for night we thought she could go there to sleep. It didn't work. Over time we cleaned a space in the hall to bring the kennel in and but again she never took to it. Over time she chose where she wanted to go. She wanted our companionship all the time and eventually she was allowed to pick what bed she would like to go in at night. What human she would like to sleep with. She was never allowed into my mam's room but she got her pick with the rest of the rooms.

Did ye give in when she started whining every time? if she goes whining and gets a response from ye she'll keep at it

Broken Hearted Road

Mooooo wrote: »

Did ye give in when she started whining every time? if she goes whining and gets a response from ye she'll keep at it

She's a house dog now. No more kennels for her. Gave in a long time ago now.

Sleeper12

tk123 wrote:

The OP said in their OP that the dog isn't exercised/getting attention and is not happy being left outside - therefore in this case YES it is cruel to leave the dog outside because it doesn't want to be there.

Is it ok to leave a big dog out in this weather? Is the title of the thread. This has been answered several times, with the correct shelter yes it's fine.

Op thinks that the dog gets little attention. This could be true but has nothing to do with being inside or outside. Dogs locked indoors on their own all day aren't getting any attention either.

So is it ok for big dogs with proper shelter to be outside this time of year? Yes
Do dogs need and deserve love and attention weather it indoors or outdoors? Yes

They are two totally different questions with no bearing on the other

Checkmate19

Have a cross breed lab/boxer and bring him over the winter.

Broken Hearted Road

This was her this morning refusing to leave my bed. I wouldn't blame her either. It was freezing out. I would have stayed there this morning if I could. She did get up eventually.

Estrellita

We have a little JRT we got from a pup. As she was the runt of the litter she was a tiny wee thing. We love and molly-coddled her until she knew we were her family. There's not a hope in hell we would put her out on an icy night.

We have her crate trained, and her bed is inside it. During the day she snoozes there, but if she wants out she goes to the door.

She has a kennel outside too for when we aren't home, so she can go to the toilet and keep her territory a feline free zone (sorry cat lovers). A couple of times in the summer she opted for her outdoor pad, but the rest of the year she would rather be indoors with her family. She's a grand lap warmer if you need one

Mooooo

Broken Hearted Road wrote: »

She's a house dog now. No more kennels for her. Gave in a long time ago now.

Ah yeah no problem with it and no need to change now was just wondering first day when ye were leaving her out first. A lot of people may talk of training dogs but they people have to learn to learn to stand fast themselves too, not directed at you but in general. no expert here but patience and consistency go a long way, along with ignoring the heart strings being pulled the odd time too

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You missed in my reply where I said that obviously it didn't show them killing sheep and I suspect that they wouldn't show it in a cartoon either.

Watch the cartoon. They did show the dogs attacking. I guess it being a cartoon gave them license to.
But still, please try to find a link to the ad you're talking about! Very curious! I didn't actually miss that bit in your reply... I just wondered about how a film crew would actually go about filming a dog leaving his home, meeting up with his mates (which the evidence says is most unlikely), and heading off to the periphery of a flock of sheep. I hope they managed to stop the dogs actually attacking the sheep

Here's what you seem to be missing. Behavioural experts (dog trainers) train dogs to go against their natural instinct. Now I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this because we want them as manageable pets but if humans vanished from the earth tomorrow morning what would the dog population be like? You'd find them hunting in packs.

With respect, and if you'll permit me to blow my own trumpet momentarily, as one of these behavioural experts (dog trainers) you speak of (and a relative rarity in Ireland being qualified and professionally certified in the field), we absolutely do not train dogs to go against their natural instinct. It would be supremely difficult to do that, and it's why we don't tend to have wolves or tigers living in our homes with us, because training an animal to go against its instincts is just not a runner.
On the contrary, as trainers we train dogs to use their instincts in a way that suits us both. We've bred dogs to be good at cooperating with us... Instinctively. That's how gundogs do what they do, that's how we get collies to herd sheep, that's how people like myself and the guards and customs get dogs to find drugs, money, or to bring a wrong 'un down, that's how we get guide dogs and therapy dogs to work happily alongside their humans.
Similarly, with pet dogs, we work with their natural behaviours to weigh the odds in our favour that they'll do so nicely. When dogs use instinctive behaviours in an anti-social way, it can be extraordinarily difficult to treat, impossible in many cases... Such is the difficulty of training a dog to go against his instincts.

Think of how puppys play. Ever seen them get their favourite teddy toy in their mouth & shake their head from side to side. Can be very cute looking but this is mother nature teaching the pet dog how to kill a rabbit to feed itself. We wouldn't be gone off this planet too long before their true instincts kicks in.

No, it's not really. In short, I think science-dom is pretty sure that dogs would die out if humans disappeared. But look, I'm not going to go into the mechanics of why this is, because... Well... I feel like I'm wasting my time with your resolute refusal to accept the evidence and research behind dog behaviour. If you're prepared to go and read up a bit on this stuff so that you're coming from a more informed base than just what you suppose, get back to me... I'd be happy to discuss it all with you then
Ray Coppinger. Go on. Read his stuff.

Checkmate19

Lovely dog in the picture. You get very attached to dogs. Ours is 10 now and i think on cold days they should be brought in. Ours has a hugh box out the back which is very comfortable but we bring him in. Have a big pooch for him and he sleeps in the kitchen.

Sleeper12

Bells21 wrote:

Well my dogs should be morbidly obese if that is the case. They enjoy playing with their toys in this way but what happens when they find a pheasant, rat or squirrel in the garden? They run the other way!! Yes it is most likely a throw back to behaviours before they were domesticated but there has been an enormous amount of change in dogs behaviour, environment etc since then. Dogs that are left in the garden with little interaction are the ones who are most likely to cause disturbance by barking or develop behavioural problems. Where we live 6 of the house have dogs, 5 of those houses have dogs who have access to outdoors but are mostly indoor dogs. One house has two dogs who spend the day locked on a 'dog run'(they can barely move in it never mind run) and those two dogs are the only two dogs you can hear barking all night every night.

The reason your dog runs the other way from potential food is because you feed him. That doesn't mean that it's natural instincts are bred out of him. Bells21 Im not talking directly about you here but believing that natural instincts can be bred out of a dog can be very dangerous. Every dog has the potential to bite and kill. I've said earlier that I think people with kids are nuts to get huge dogs like pit bulls. These can be pussycats, lovable love snuggling etc but if they snap they can kill. Small dogs can snap but most likely it'll be just a bite. Never think your dog never would.

eviltwin

Some dogs would be very hardy and would be okay. Some won't. Ours are both elderly and short haired. My husband built a kennel for them, it's really well insulated and I've been in it in winter and been okay but they still stay indoors. I just couldn't do it to them. They might be okay but they are happier with the family.

Sleeper12

Broken Hearted Road wrote:

This was her this morning refusing to leave my bed. I wouldn't blame her either. It was freezing out. I would have stayed there this morning if I could. She did get up eventually.

Beautiful dog.

Sleeper12

I don't think we are disagreeing on the OPs situation though. I believe that dogs are ok outside with acquit shelter but with plenty of exercise and social interaction. We both agree ( I think) that leaving a dog on it's own for 10 hours a day inside or outside the house is not good for the dogs wellness. The rest of the stuff we'll have to wait for the end of the world to see who's right but then neither of us would be here to say told you so 

Edit: I haven't been able to follow the link to the ad on my kindle. No YouTube on kindle. Looked at it on my pc. As soon as I saw the dog lying by the fire I realized that you are right. That is the ad I was remembering. I tip my hat to you.

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Is it ok to leave a big dog out in this weather? Is the title of the thread. This has been answered several times, with the correct shelter yes it's fine.

Op thinks that the dog gets little attention. This could be true but has nothing to do with being inside or outside. Dogs locked indoors on their own all day aren't getting any attention either.

In their opening post, the op is concerned about whether the dog is warm/comfortable enough, AND that it whines, they wonder is this due to lack of attention. They also say they don't know much about dogs. The fact is that the dog's behaviour IS related to being outside alone. Whether the dog has adequate shelter is only a part of the op's enquiry, and I'm sure they've learned a lot more now that they know how important social interaction is for a dog. The two things are inextricably linked, certainly when it comes to many Irish dog owners.

As for the inside/outside argument, in Ireland at least, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of dogs that don't get enough attention are those that live out in the garden. The overwhelming majority of problem dogs that I see for treatment for isolation-related behavioural problems are dogs that live outside with little social interaction. Out of the thousands of dogs I've seen over almost twenty years, I can't even remember one for whom living indoors was related to the problem of them spending too much time alone... I'm sure there were a few, but they are so few I can't recall them!
So, whilst it's true that a dog left indoors alone for long periods is as likely to develop behavioural problems as a dog living outdoors, the reality is that in Ireland at least, dogs left alone for long periods inside doesn't actually happen anywhere near as much as dogs left for long periods alone outside. So the argument about dogs being left inside alone all day just strikes me as a bit of a red herring. Not saying it doesn't happen with indoor dogs, but it sure as hell doesn't excuse owners who essentially abandon their dog in the back yard all day.
One aside that people might find interesting. Every year at about the time that the nights start getting cold, I get a rash of calls from owners complaining that their outside dog has suddenly started barking in the night time. The problem always comes back to them simply not being warm enough.

Mooooo

DBB wrote: »

In their opening post, the op is concerned about whether the dog is warm/comfortable enough, AND that it whines, they wonder is this due to lack of attention. They also say they don't know much about dogs. The fact is that the dog's behaviour IS related to being outside alone. Whether the dog has adequate shelter is only a part of the op's enquiry, and I'm sure they've learned a lot more now that they know how important social interaction is for a dog. The two things are inextricably linked, certainly when it comes to many Irish dog owners.

As for the inside/outside argument, in Ireland at least, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of dogs that don't get enough attention are those that live out in the garden. The overwhelming majority of problem dogs that I see for treatment for isolation-related behavioural problems are dogs that live outside with little social interaction. Out of the thousands of dogs I've seen over almost twenty years, I can't even remember one for whom living indoors was related to the problem of them spending too much time alone... I'm sure there were a few, but they are so few I can't recall them!
So, whilst it's true that a dog left indoors alone for long periods is as likely to develop behavioural problems as a dog living outdoors, the reality is that in Ireland at least, dogs left alone for long periods inside doesn't actually happen anywhere near as much as dogs left for long periods alone outside. So the argument about dogs being left inside alone all day just strikes me as a bit of a red herring. Not saying it doesn't happen with indoor dogs, but it sure as hell doesn't excuse owners who essentially abandon their dog in the back yard all day.
One aside that people might find interesting. Every year at about the time that the nights start getting cold, I get a rash of calls from owners complaining that their outside dog has suddenly started barking in the night time. The problem always comes back to them simply not being warm enough.

With those cases tho being outside isn't the issue it's the fact they are not being interacted with. Jsut wondering aa you deal with these cases would you have less of an issue woth 2 dog houses as opposed to sinhle dog households? ON the barking this time of year never had an issue with ours, only difference is this time of year the hunt may be out and the boyo here would bark then alright but that would be morning and not night

Sleeper12

DBB wrote:

As for the inside/outside argument, in Ireland at least, in my experience, the overwhelming majority of dogs that don't get enough attention are those that live out in the garden. The overwhelming majority of problem dogs that I see for treatment for isolation-related behavioural problems are dogs that live outside with little social interaction. Out of the thousands of dogs I've seen over almost twenty years, I can't even remember one for whom living indoors was related to the problem of them spending too much time alone... I'm sure there were a few, but they are so few I can't recall them! So, whilst it's true that a dog left indoors alone for long periods is as likely to develop behavioural problems as a dog living outdoors, the reality is that in Ireland at least, dogs left alone for long periods inside doesn't actually happen anywhere near as much as dogs left for long periods alone outside. So the argument about dogs being left inside alone all day just strikes me as a bit of a red herring. Not saying it doesn't happen with indoor dogs, but it sure as hell doesn't excuse owners who essentially abandon their dog in the back yard all day. One aside that people might find interesting. Every year at about the time that the nights start getting cold, I get a rash of calls from owners complaining that their outside dog has suddenly started barking in the night time. The problem always comes back to them simply not being warm enough.

But do you not agree that its cruel to leave a dog in the house for up to 10 hours on their own?
I saw a documentary awhile back about it. They put cameras throughout several homes and recorded the dog throughout the day. They had behaviour specialists and/ or dog psychologist analyse this video. Poor dogs showed severe stress. One of the owners was in tears watching it back. She thought she had a happy dog while she was at work.

Bells21

10 hours a day inside or outside is, in my opinion, far too much time for a dog to be in isolation. But, if you put an outdoors dog in that situation it becomes even more of an issue as a person who has been at work all day for that length of time will undoubtedly walk past their poor dog stuck outdoors. I doubt they're going to spend a few hours outside with their dog at that stage so that dog essentially is being left alone 24/7.

Knine

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The reason your dog runs the other way from potential food is because you feed him.

My dogs run after potential food no matter how much I feed them.

Sleeper12

Bells21 wrote:

10 hours a day inside or outside is, in my opinion, far too much time for a dog to be in isolation. But if you put an outdoors dog in that situation it becomes even more of an issue as a person who has been at work all day for that length if time will undoubtedly walk past their poor door stuck outdoors. I doubt they're going to spend a few hours outside with their dog at that stage so that dog essentially is being left alone 24/7.

I hear you but a lot of outside dogs come inside the house after the 10 hours. Some would sleep inside. The dog pound or shelter in the UK won't let you adopt a dog if it's to be kept indoors on it's own. They'd rather put the dog down than do that.

John_Rambo

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

A lot of people don't believe animals should be living in the house, it's a perfectly legimate outlook and they can very much know what they are talking about. Saying an animal can't live outside sounds more like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about imo.

I'd agree with you, that's a stupid thing to say. Obviously some animals like wolves, crocodiles, kangaroos, newts, whales, eagles, elephants, moose, hares, crabs, wasps, lemurs, gorillas, buffalo, and polar bears fare better outdoors.

But nobody said an animal can't live outside.

I'd say I have more experience with dogs than you to be honest, so I know what I'm talking about. Domestic dogs fare better living indoors with their families. They have less issues, there's enough experts on here telling you that, there's enough evidence online about it too.

This recent concept of keeping the dogs outdoors, chaining them up, excluding them, locking them out is a joke. Back to the old ways, dogs in the house = well balanced, well behaved adjusted dog.

John_Rambo

Bells21 wrote: »

10 hours a day inside or outside is, in my opinion, far too much time for a dog to be in isolation

The reason I don't have dogs any more. I used to work from home, but I don't now. We're out of the house from 8 to 6. The dog would be better off in a shelter than being left alone for that amount of time.

I wish people in my position would rethink things before shelling out 1k on a dog to leave it in a back garden (not matter how big it is) for the day.

Mooooo

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'd agree with you, that's a stupid thing to say. Obviously some animals like wolves, crocodiles, kangaroos, newts, whales, eagles, elephants, moose, hares, crabs, wasps, lemurs, gorillas, buffalo, and polar bears fare better outdoors.

But nobody said an animal can't live outside.

I'd say I have more experience with dogs than you to be honest, so I know what I'm talking about. Domestic dogs fare better living indoors with their families. They have less issues, there's enough experts on here telling you that, there's enough evidence online about it too.

This recent concept of keeping the dogs outdoors, chaining them up, excluding them, locking them out is a joke. Back to the old ways, dogs in the house = well balanced, well behaved adjusted dog.

What issues do dogs outside have? Ours have none. Last girl went to 16 and had none went to vet twice iirc I that time

Bells21

John_Rambo wrote:

The reason I don't have dogs any more. I used to work from home, but I don't now. We're out of the house from 8 to 6. The dog would be better off in a shelter than being left alone for that amount of time.

John_Rambo wrote:

I wish people in my position would rethink things before shelling out 1k on a dog to leave it in a back garden (not matter how big it is) for the day.

I just wish more people could make such an informed decision as you did. If my circumstances were different I probably wouldn't be able to have a dog either.

DBB

Mooooo wrote: »

With those cases tho being outside isn't the issue it's the fact they are not being interacted with. Jsut wondering aa you deal with these cases would you have less of an issue woth 2 dog houses as opposed to sinhle dog households? ON the barking this time of year never had an issue with ours, only difference is this time of year the hunt may be out and the boyo here would bark then alright but that would be morning and not night

Absolutely... I'm not trying to claim that dogs left for long periods inside are hugely better off than those left outside, and I don't have a huge issue with outdoor-living dogs as long as they have a cozy shelter, and plenty of social interaction. Prolonged solitude is a terrible thing for dogs, no matter where they are. My point is though that in Ireland, there are far more dogs living in solitude in back gardens than there are dogs living in solitude in houses. Generally, even if alone during the day, the house dog gets interaction in the evenings and weekends, and because the owner has a vested interest in not having the indoor dog soiling or chewing whilst alone, wrecking the house, they'll often get a dog walker, or someone to call in... On the other hand, with back yard dogs, it's all too often out of sight, out of mind.
On having two dogs, this can work out very well for some dogs, but it's by no means reliable, as all too often it's quite specifically the human that dog wants. Just to try to put a figure on it, and I'm working from memory here so I might be out a bit , in cases of separation anxiety, getting another dog will help in something like 25% of cases.... It's not fantastic odds, is it? But for the dogs that do feel at ease with another canine pal, having two dogs makes life a lot easier!
In a lot of cases, getting a 2nd dog doubles the trouble.

Cherry Blossom

A few posts in this thread are in danger of vearing way off topic. If people want to discuss dogs instincts, bites or just dog behaviour in general please start a new thread for the purpose. Please keep the OPs queries in mind when replying on this one.

Thanks,
CB.

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

But do you not agree that its cruel to leave a dog in the house for up to 10 hours on their own?
I saw a documentary awhile back about it. They put cameras throughout several homes and recorded the dog throughout the day. They had behaviour specialists and/ or dog psychologist analyse this video. Poor dogs showed severe stress.

I'm not sure what gives you the impression that I wouldn't consider it cruel to leave a dog alone indoors or outdoors for long periods. It's a well-known fact that prolonged solitude is harmful, no matter where the dog lives.
But what I'm saying here, and I've expanded upon it above, dogs that live inside make up a minority of dogs that are left for too long, in my experience at least. The vast majority are specifically outdoors backyard dogs, and they've been put outdoors because they've become a nuisance due to lack of training, exercise, and/or appropriate management.
Once they're outside, they're easy to practically forget about. But you can't forget about your indoor dog, and by definition, dogs living indoors get significantly more social interaction than out-of-sight garden dogs, even if the owner's out at work for hours.
I have not only seen the documentary you saw, I've read the primary research behind those shows, and *ahem**namedrop* I know the consultant behaviourist they used... We're members of the same professional associations
No doubt separation anxiety is a terrible problem, it's one of the hardest to treat, but it doesn't discriminate between dogs that live inside vs dogs that live outside. My point remains, when it comes to social interaction, at worst, indoor dogs get a better deal than forgotten-about garden dogs get at their best.

Sleeper12

DBB wrote:

I'm not sure what gives you the impression that I wouldn't consider it cruel to leave a dog alone indoors or outdoors for long periods. It's a well-known fact that prolonged solitude is harmful, no matter where the dog lives. But what I'm saying here, and I've expanded upon it above, dogs that live inside make up a minority of dogs that are left for too long, in my experience at least. The vast majority are specifically outdoors backyard dogs, and they've been put outdoors because they've become a nuisance due to lack of training, exercise, and/or appropriate management. Once they're outside, they're easy to practically forget about. But you can't forget about your indoor dog, and by definition, dogs living indoors get significantly more social interaction than out-of-sight garden dogs, even if the owner's out at work for hours. I have not only seen the documentary you saw, I've read the primary research behind those shows, and *ahem**namedrop* I know the consultant behaviourist they used... We're members of the same professional associations No doubt separation anxiety is a terrible problem, it's one of the hardest to treat, but it doesn't discriminate between dogs that live inside vs dogs that live outside. My point remains, when it comes to social interaction, at worst, indoor dogs get a better deal than forgotten-about garden dogs get at their best.

It's a huge load off my shoulders that you saw the documentary. Not that I thought you wouldn't know the facts but because I was afraid you'd ask me for a link I couldn't provide.
We're both dog lovers and take away the pack thing I think we're pretty much on the same page. Each night in my house there's myself, the wife and the two dogs on the couch or at our feet. My wife asks regularly do I think they know what love is. I say without hesitation a big fat yes.

John_Rambo

Mooooo wrote: »

What issues do dogs outside have? Ours have none. Last girl went to 16 and had none went to vet twice iirc I that time

Not you're dogs specifically but in my experience dogs that are left outside 100% of the time with not much interaction with family aren't well adjusted dogs. They don't like solitude and modern humans don't spend all day outdoors anymore... so they're apart from the family. They may might have great longevity and physical health.

City folk problems :rolleyes: