Is it OK to leave a big dog outdoors in this weather?

Sleeper12

Noor Echoing Cave wrote:

Dogs are outdoor anaimals, they aren't humans and certainly aren't babies. Once he has shelter he will be fine, having dogs living in the house is a new thing that's emerged (in cities) over in the last 20 years or so.

Totally agree although I have 2 house dogs myself. Some owners forget that they are animals & in reality should be outdoors. Obviously a kennel is important

John_Rambo

Water John wrote: »

AFAIK all the experts on here are saying the dog is not a pack animal.

Social animals then. They do better in the company of other dogs and humans.

Ann22

Dogs feel the cold like we do. A lab has short fur, he's not a siberian husky or an alaskan malamute who is physically adapted to a colder climate so he would love a warm radiator to lie beside.
He will survive in a well insulated kennel with quality thermal bedding once its not sub zero temperatures (in which case there's only so much curling up in a ball will do to keep him warm) but he will feel cold and lonely. A good quality dog coat would help him. Perhaps you could give one as a gift?
There's no doubt he would be much happier in the house with his family. So any people do this. Buy cute puppies then banish them to the back garden when they grow.
I hope he is walked regularly. He will likely develop over excitable behaviour and will be hard to manage.

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

You'll get a better behaved, better socialised, happier and friendlier dog if it's kept with the family.

They're pack animals it's a no brainer, anyone telling you dogs do well excluded from family life in a back garden doesn't know what they're talking about and have most likely never owned a dog.

A lot of people don't believe animals should be living in the house, it's a perfectly legimate outlook and they can very much know what they are talking about. Saying an animal can't live outside sounds more like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about imo.

Obviously if a dog has been accustomed to being inside will find it hard going out but if a pup is living outside from day one like many people do then they will be perfectly happy as outside pets once they have a shed or kennel to shelter form the weather and sleep in at night.

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Totally agree although I have 2 house dogs myself. Some owners forget that they are animals & in reality should be outdoors. Obviously a kennel is important

Quite the contradiction that you keep your dogs inside! Why do you keep them in when you feel they should be outdoors?
As you feel dogs should be kept outside, could you just address for me the bigger problem of social isolation and consequent behavioural problems for pet dogs kept alone outside, and remember I'm staying on topic here and referring to a dog that is alone for long periods in a back garden?
Can you also address why pet dogs (and indeed working hounds as alluded to in my first post) "should" be outside when they have been very deliberately kept inside as human companions for thousands of years?
They're animals alright, as are we, but being an animal is not a determinant of having to live outside. Pet dogs are not livestock... They are domesticated companion animals. How can a dog alone in a garden be a companion to anyone... Remembering there's mountains of evidence that they both want and need to be with their humans in order to thrive emotionally.
Like I said above, people from other countries are aghast at the Irish attitude that dogs belong outside. It's a very strange view that's not based on any evidence.

DBB

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

A lot of people don't believe animals should be living in the house, it's a perfectly legimate outlook and they can very much know what they are talking about. Saying an animal can't live outside sounds more like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about imo.

Obviously if a dog has been accustomed to being inside will find it hard going out but if a pup is living outside from day one like many people do then they will be perfectly happy as outside pets once they have a shed or kennel to shelter form the weather and sleep in at night.

Again, can we leave weather and the elements to one side, and focus on the vastly bigger problem... could you please explain how a dog, very much bred to be a sociable companion animal, that's kept alone outside in a garden could avoid developing behavioural problems associated with loneliness, boredom, social isolation, and inherent lack of training?
I find that a lot of the people you suggest "know what they're talking about" are those who may not be aware of the mountains of literature which shows that dogs living alone, from any age, do not do well behaviourally and emotionally. You're not going to find a person who knows what they're talking about based on actual empirical evidence who'll advocate or agree with leaving a dog alone for long periods. They are social, companion animals. That puts them in a different category to this general "all animals should be outside" thing that's being thrown around here at liberty. Saying it often enough doesn't make it true, and in this case, research-led evidence also says it's not true.

DBB

DBB wrote: »

Again, can we leave weather and the elements to one side, and focus on the vastly bigger problem... could you please explain how a dog, very much bred to be a sociable companion animal, that's kept alone outside in a garden could avoid developing behavioural problems associated with loneliness, boredom, social isolation, and inherent lack of training?
I find that a lot of the people you suggest "know what they're talking about" are those who may not be aware of the mountains of literature which shows that dogs living alone, from any age, do not do well behaviourally and emotionally. You're not going to find a person who knows what they're talking about based on actual empirical evidence who'll advocate or agree with leaving a dog alone for long periods. They are social, companion animals. That puts them in a different category to this general "all animals should be outside" thing that's being thrown around here at liberty. Saying it often enough doesn't make it true, and in this case, research-led evidence also says it's not true.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get interaction, but they don't need to be in the house to get it. They also don't need the level of pampering suggest by many here it will just make them expect it as the norm making a lot of extra work for their owners and making them less able to occupy themelsves during the day when people are out at work etc or away for the evening.

tk123

I wonder how many of the people who accuse others of pampering/babying their pets "don't hear" their own dogs barking morning, noon and night driving their neighbours mad because they're going out of their minds being dumped outside all day? The CKS behind us should be starting to bark in the next 30 mins but sure he's has a kennel (I assume) so he's nice and warm? Funny the barking doesn't sound like it's coming from a kennel?

FrostyJack

Noor Echoing Cave wrote:

I'm not saying they shouldn't get interaction, but they don't need to be in the house to get it. They also don't need the level of pampering suggest by many here it will just make them expect it as the norm making a lot of extra work for their owners and making them less able to occupy themelsves during the day when people are out at work etc or away for the evening.

How much of the day do you expect the average person spends in their garden? Unless you work in the garden I would guess it would be 1 hour max so the dog would be 23 hours on its own. How do dogs occupy themselves without humans? Crossword puzzles, movies? One of my dogs won't even eat a bone unless someone is there she just sleeps. I have the camera on them when we are out so I know what they do. I would imagine most dogs are like this unless they are barking and digging holes.

DBB

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

I'm not saying they shouldn't get interaction, but they don't need to be in the house to get it. They also don't need the level of pampering suggest by many here it will just make them expect it as the norm making a lot of extra work for their owners and making them less able to occupy themelsves during the day when people are out at work etc or away for the evening.

But you said the dog would be fine as long as he has shelter, it took until now for you to concede that they also need interaction as well as shelter?!
These are companion animals, it is surely by definition then that the owner wants to have a bit of extra work to reap the many benefits of their companionship... And for the record, it has been shown in the scientific literature that time spent with the owner, and the level of "pampering" (as you call it) the dogs gets, bears no relation to the development of separation-related behavioural disorders when the owner leaves. So you can put that to bed.
The problem we're discussing here, and assuming we want to stay on topic, is a dog living in a back garden that's exhibiting signs of distress at his solitude/living conditions. He, along with thousands of other back yard dogs, is simply not getting enough interaction... If he was, those behaviours wouldn't be exhibited.
For a dog to get enough social interaction, and taking into account individual variation, you're looking at hours of interaction... And I'm not talking about full-on contact with the owner here... Simply just being with the owner, just lying there as the owner does their daily tasks, is enough for most dogs. The difference this small thing makes to their wellbeing, and other spin-off factors such as training, is enormous. It's not pampering, it is a biological need, again that's not my personal opinion, it has been repeatedly shown in the literature... It's just simple, straightforward companionship they want, and this is what is seriously lacking in the lives of back yard dogs.
They don't have a farmyard to root around in, or an owner that's coming and going about his working day with the dog hanging out with him/her, or an owner who has a vested interest in getting the dog fit and ready for the hunting season. Any farmer will tell you how cruel and potentially damaging it is for sociable animals like cattle, sheep or horses to be left in solitude... Decent farmers will avoid doing so at all costs unless absolutely necessary. As companion animals, dogs need the companionship of their owners (and again, let me reiterate, this is a biological, genetically-driven need), and back yard dogs just don't get that, whether by design or pure ignorance on the part of their owners.
If the owners of lonely, bored back yard dogs just let them into the house, just for a few hours each day, these dogs' lives would be significantly enhanced. Let's face it, these owners aren't going to spend enough time out in the garden year-round. Just giving them shelter and blithely saying they'll be fine with just that is in direct contrast to what the scientific literature tells us, and to what clued-in dog owners already know.

tk123

tk123 wrote: »

I wonder how many of the people who accuse others of pampering/babying their pets "don't hear" their own dogs barking morning, noon and night driving their neighbours mad because they're going out of their minds being dumped outside all day? The CKS behind us should be starting to bark in the next 30 mins but sure he's has a kennel (I assume) so he's nice and warm? Funny the barking doesn't sound like it's coming from a kennel?

I hear dogs barking from inside houses just as much from outside and surely spending the day in the garden is better than in the kitchen. Outside they can run around if they wish, don't have to hold their pee etc.

FrostyJack wrote: »

How much of the day do you expect the average person spends in their garden? Unless you work in the garden I would guess it would be 1 hour max so the dog would be 23 hours on its own. How do dogs occupy themselves without humans? Crossword puzzles, movies? One of my dogs won't even eat a bone unless someone is there she just sleeps. I have the camera on them when we are out so I know what they do. I would imagine most dogs are like this unless they are barking and digging holes.

Yes there is no doubt dogs spend most of their day asleep including when around people as I see dogs asleep in people houses when they are around too so in reality an outside more than likely gets as much play, walking etc as an indoor one as both dogs will be asleep regardless of being in a living room or a kennel or shed.

jimf

I have 4 springer spaniels hunting dogs they live sleep outside they are warm have a choice of cuddling up together at night if its cold

they sleep in raised beds have good vet care and are better fed than myself but is this enough not by a long shot

they are out of their runs for at least 1 hour morning and the same at evening time for a long run in a bog near where I live can only be described as springer heaven but the most important thing is they have interaction with me and each other this imho is where the happiness and contentment comes in a dogs life

they are not nervous or shy and kids could sleep on their backs if allowed

where I have issues is where somebody thinks its enough to feed a dog and look at them 24 hours a day out there back window this is not a life its an existence

Sleeper12

My wife wants the dogs to live in the house so they do. I'm fine with that but I also know that they would be fine outdoors with a proper shelter. Pet the Vet said on newstalk only last week that dogs outside are fine so long as they are exercised regularly.
In the UK you can't adopt a dog from the dogs home unless someone in the house doesn't work. I do believe in social isolation but dogs keep indoors on their own all also suffer from this.
Dogs come from wolves and dogs most certainly are pack animals. This is why we have 2 dogs. There was an ad on tv in the 70s or 80s. It showed a family dog from the country being let out for a run in the fields after dinner. It went on to show the dog (family pet) joining other dogs and hunting sheep. This was a government sponsored ad. Dogs are not human they are animals. It's dangerous to think otherwise.
I am a dog lover. I've grown up with dozens of dogs but I'll never be the type of dog lover that thinks that their dog won't do animal things. Some owners who think that their dogs are almost humanMay get a big surprise some day. I think people with huge muscular dogs are taking a massive risk with their family.
I love all dogs but I do know that they are animals. I have a huge respect for them but I also know that their animal instinct may take over sometime.

Edit: golden Labradors were actually bred for hunting originally. Very closely related to golden retrievers

DBB

It's interesting, speaking of working dogs, and I have sniffer/detection dogs myself, the police dogs and customs dogs in Ireland and the UK (and presumably further afield too... I just have personal experience of here and UK) are all kept in their handlers' homes as family members... As a legal requirement they have kennels built in their gardens to house the dogs, but there's very few of them using them
Why? From the handlers I've spoken to, and indeed having read their SOPs, they feel that it's infinitely better for the dog's welfare and training/obedience to be inside the house... I can see exactly what they mean, because when they're inside with us, they're under our constant guidance and influence, and we're consequently hugely more tuned into each other and with an extraordinary bond, so we all work better together. Are my dogs and police dogs pampered? I'd just say they're having their needs met, and are well cared for.

Dyr

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

A lot of people don't believe animals should be living in the house, it's a perfectly legimate outlook and they can very much know what they are talking about. Saying an animal can't live outside sounds more like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about imo.

A lot of people think all sorts of things, Stupid doesn't become any less stupid just because it has plenty of company.

tk123

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

I hear dogs barking from inside houses just as much from outside and surely spending the day in the garden is better than in the kitchen. Outside they can run around if they wish, don't have to hold their pee etc.

My two have no interest in running around the garden. When they need to go to the loo they'll ask to go out and run back in. The kitchen is actually one of their favourite places because they can get heat off the oven or radiator!

EDIT - and we're off with the CKC barking..

jimf

yours are lucky to have 2 heat sources in the kitchen tk123 mine would have only 1 as the oven is never on

ouch jesus shes lookin over my shoulder again

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Pet the Vet said on newstalk only last week that dogs outside are fine so long as they are exercised

With respect, Pete's a vet, and he's a lovely man, but he's not a behavioural specialist. He has come out with many a one-liner over the years that have professional behaviourist's associations facepalming.

Dogs come from wolves and dogs most certainly are pack animals. This is why we have 2 dogs. There was an ad on tv in the 70s or 80s. It showed a family dog from the country being let out for a run in the fields after dinner. It went on to show the dog (family pet) joining other dogs and hunting sheep. This was a government sponsored ad. Dogs are not human they are animals. It's dangerous to think otherwise.

That ad was a cartoon, in fairness.
In any case, the figures show that the majority of attacks on sheep are carried out by one dog, most of the remainder by two dogs that live together... That's from a series of UK reports on livestock attacks, not my own suppositions.

Dogs are not pack animals. They are sociable and companionable, but they are not pack animals. To clarify about wolves and dogs, and again please let me point out that this has been shown again and again by the very best researchers around the world for decades now... Dogs didn't just "come from wolves". They came from wolves that had a tendency to go it alone... Solitary wolves, who themselves had evolved an independent way of life by existing on the outskirts of human settlements feeding from the middens and waste dumps.
As the evolutionary biologists who have written this stuff up point out, there is no need for wolves, or modern-day feral dogs, with a ready and stationary food supply, to retain a pack structure for hunting. Modern-day feral dogs that live in city dumps around the world (and there are far more of them in the world than there are pet dogs) form loose social groups for reproductive purposes including temporary mother/offspring groupings, but that's about it.
The ethologists and evolutionary biologists are at pains to point out that dogs are most certainly not "pack" animals... They evolved from animals that were (genetically) not pack-forming.
In any case, wolves aren't "pack" animals as such either... At least, not in the sense that the term is often bandied about. They live in closely bonded family groups, as opposed to being made up of disparate individuals who just want to be chums.

bmwguy

I have a Labrador and brought her for a walk this morning, freezing it was and she jumped in the freezing river and had a swim around! I don't think labs feel the cold but it's the outside part with no interaction that is the problem rather than the cold. But there is no health issue in my opinion if they have shelter.

My lab is an indoor dog by the way but I don't think they will struggle outside.

Sleeper12

DBB wrote:

With respect, Pete's a vet, and he's a lovely man, but he's not a behavioural specialist. He has come out with many a one-liner over the years that have professional behaviourist's associations facepalming.

Pet also has pets

DBB wrote:

That ad was a cartoon, in fairness. In any case, the figures show that the majority of attacks on sheep are carried out by one dog, most of the remainder by two dogs that live together... That's from a series of UK reports on livestock attacks, not my own suppositions.

The ad wasn't a cartoon. If memory serves they used an Irish red settler. Obviously they didn't show the dogs attacking sheep but at the same time that was the message of the ad.

Have to say this again, dogs are pack animals. Now I'm happy to say that they interact great with humans and they love social interaction but definitely a pack animal. What do you call a grouping of dogs? Answer: a pack of dogs.
Remember we take them out of their natural environment but when left to their own devices they will run in packs

tk123

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Have to say this again, dogs are pack animals. Now I'm happy to say that they interact great with humans and they love social interaction but definitely a pack animal. What do you call a grouping of dogs? Answer: a pack of dogs.
Remember we take them out of their natural environment but when left to their own devices they will run in packs

In the OP's case the dog's natural environment is as a companion animal with it's humans though? We're not talking about a wild dingo - it's a pet Labrador! The same way my two retrievers are pets - they might go for a swim in freezing cold water but they wouldn't want to sit in it for hours.

FrostyJack

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Pet also has pets

I have a car, does that make me a mechanic? Vets are well known for not studying behaviour, just medical conditions, there is some cross over but it isn't like a GP. I have heard vets say ridiculous things over the years in terms of looking after dogs.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The ad wasn't a cartoon. If memory serves they used an Irish red settler. Obviously they didn't show the dogs attacking sheep but at the same time that was the message of the ad.

Have to say this again, dogs are pack animals. Now I'm happy to say that they interact great with humans and they love social interaction but definitely a pack animal. What do you call a grouping of dogs? Answer: a pack of dogs.
Remember we take them out of their natural environment but when left to their own devices they will run in packs

It could have of been a different ad but the one I remember was a cartoon where the dog comes home to the family at night after the dog attacks the sheep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIh0kMPdlUc There were ads for the health benefits of smoking back in the day too. Science has caught up now and proven they are not pack animals. Stop watching rubbish like the dog whisperer. Dogs had to evolve from wolves to live with people, they have very little traits of wolves other than the physical ones. This is not opinion, this is fact.

Cynortas

Ok so heres my two cents on this i believe that its ok to leave a big dog outdoors as long as the dog has adequate space, food, water and shelter. My sister has a big dog that sleeps outside at night and he always has plenty of food, water and two sheds to sleep in if its cold or rains and he prefers to stay outside.

Sleeper12

tk123 wrote:

In the OP's case the dog's natural environment is as a companion animal with it's humans though? We're not talking about a wild dingo - it's a pet Labrador! The same way my two retrievers are pets - they might go for a swim in freezing cold water but they wouldn't want to sit in it for hours.

I'm happy with dogs inside or outside and I do believe they love human company and social interaction. My point is the dog can be locked in the house on their own for 10 hours at a time and this is as cruel as having them outside on their own possibly more so. There are plenty of people who think that they are dog lovers and wouldn't dream of having a dog outside and yet some are happy to leave the dog inside for hours on end. Ah sure he loves when I leave the t.v. on or he has the run of the house doesn't really cut it.
Answer to OPs question is it's fine to have a dog outside or inside. What you need to look at if you are worried about the welfare of the dog is how much exercise and interaction they are getting. This is equally as important if the dog is inside or outside

tk123

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I
Answer to OPs question is it's fine to have a dog outside or inside. What you need to look at if you are worried about the welfare of the dog is how much exercise and interaction they are getting. This is equally as important if the dog is inside or outside

The OP said in their OP that the dog isn't exercised/getting attention and is not happy being left outside - therefore in this case YES it is cruel to leave the dog outside because it doesn't want to be there.

Sleeper12

FrostyJack wrote:

I have a car, does that make me a mechanic? Vets are well known for not studying behaviour, just medical conditions, there is some cross over but it isn't like a GP. I have heard vets say ridiculous things over the years in terms of looking after dogs.

In fairness in your analogy pete the vet would actually be the mechanic.
Just saying like.

DBB

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Pet also has pets

He's got eyes too. That doesn't make him an optician though!

The ad wasn't a cartoon. If memory serves they used an Irish red settler. Obviously they didn't show the dogs attacking sheep but at the same time that was the message of the ad.

Do you think you could find a link to that? The only ad I ever saw was a cartoon... Seems hard to believe they'd actually be able (physically or ethically) to film a group of dogs off to kill sheep!
But again, the reports over many years from the UK sheep farmers contradict what you seem to be suggesting, or what the ad suggested... I think I'll go with what the research tells us about dog attacks on sheep.

Have to say this again, dogs are pack animals. Now I'm happy to say that they interact great with humans and they love social interaction but definitely a pack animal. What do you call a grouping of dogs? Answer: a pack of dogs.
Remember we take them out of their natural environment but when left to their own devices they will run in packs

You can say it a thousand times, it still doesn't make it true... The research carried out by behavioural evolutionary scientists for decades completely contradicts your opinion.
I'm thinking that you don't understand what being a pack animal actually entails in a biological sense, I'll leave you to it to read up some more on that. But I'm inclined to go with what the experts say in relation to the social make-up of the dog, rather than what some individual or group of individuals wants it to be.
If you want to blindly go on believing what you're saying, that's completely your lookout... It seems to me to be a common frame of mind from people who unilaterally say that "dogs should be outside because they're animals"... It's based on nothing more than a tradition of ignorance about what the empirical evidence tells us.
In any case, we never took wolves, proto-dogs or dogs out of their natural environment. They pretty much did that all by themselves. Read up on it. It's interesting. Look up Ray Coppinger. He'll tell you what you need to know far better than I can

Edited to add, and I see it's already been linked above... This is the only ad I've seen...
https://youtu.be/LIh0kMPdlUc
Would love to see the real-life ad out of curiosity

Mooooo

In ops case the neighbouring dog is either looking for company or exercise, being outside isn't the issue. have 3 dogs here, 2 big dogs a collie pup and a 5yr old gsd cross both taken in as unwanted pups and and have never spent time inside, only to be fed. not working dogs, well will see how the collie takes to the cattle, but have me for company during the day and each other when im not there, there was snow on the ground a few years ago and the gsdx and our old collie were curled up out in the lawn during the day at -5 with plenty sheds to go to if they wanted. The other dog is a little jrt who can come in during the day but is out at night. 90% of cases once the dog is fed and has a kennel its exercise and companionship they need. Id suggest if there is no-one in the house during the day having one dog on its own isn't right, at least if there was two they can keep each other company. During the spring/summer/ autumn i would walk a good couple of km every day and even the pup would do the most of it. dogs like labs need long walks not just out for 20 mins, esp when on a lead they wouldnt have half the exercise of my two who'd be running around me for the same distance

Sleeper12

DBB wrote:

Do you think you could find a link to that? The only ad I ever saw was a cartoon... Seems hard to believe they'd actually be able (physically or ethically) to film a group of dogs off to kill sheep! But again, the reports over many years from the UK sheep farmers contradict what you seem to be suggesting, or what the ad suggested... I think I'll go with what the research tells us about dog attacks on sheep.

You missed in my reply where I said that obviously it didn't show them killing sheep and I suspect that they wouldn't show it in a cartoon either.

Here's what you seem to be missing. Behavioural experts (dog trainers) train dogs to go against their natural instinct. Now I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this because we want them as manageable pets but if humans vanished from the earth tomorrow morning what would the dog population be like? You'd find them hunting in packs.
Think of how puppys play. Ever seen them get their favourite teddy toy in their mouth & shake their head from side to side. Can be very cute looking but this is mother nature teaching the pet dog how to kill a rabbit to feed itself. We wouldn't be gone off this planet too long before their true instincts kicks in.

Broken Hearted Road

I have a beautiful pet dog. As a new puppy (she would have been about 5/6/7 months old. We got her a kennel for outside because we didn't know any better. We thought, it's dog, it lives outside.

The dog never took to it once. She whined and barked and chewed holes in her kennel. During the days she was brought for walks and allowed to ramble but for night we thought she could go there to sleep. It didn't work. Over time we cleaned a space in the hall to bring the kennel in and but again she never took to it. Over time she chose where she wanted to go. She wanted our companionship all the time and eventually she was allowed to pick what bed she would like to go in at night. What human she would like to sleep with. She was never allowed into my mam's room but she got her pick with the rest of the rooms.