Brexit borders

strikeforcefan

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

LeinsterDub

strikeforcefan wrote: »

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

You're grossly misinformed

strikeforcefan

I am? please elaborate

Nody

Because the negotiations are not completed yet (strictly speaking they have not started as they only start with the PM sending in the request to invoke clause 50 which triggers the 2 year negotiation period) there is no information on what will be implemented or how; however UK has expressed that they want EU workers in UK to be allowed to remain there (because if they did not do that EU would kick out the UK workers in EU) and to keep the current no passport union. Hence everything you've posted is theoretically possible but in reality it's in the snowball chance of hell category to actually happen.

LeinsterDub

The current state of play is the UK government have 'guaranteed' the common travel area and no hard border. The situation you outlined above is the worst case scenario were the UK or Europe basically go mental and resort to the political and economic equivalent of MAD (mutually assured destruction)

fxotoole

strikeforcefan wrote: »

I am? please elaborate

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

Jayop

There may well be a border from South to North despite people worrying about it during the election being dismissed as part of the idioticly named project fear. However people from Ireland and Britain will have travel and work access for the foreseeable future.

LeinsterDub

Jayop wrote: »

There may well be a border from South to North despite people worrying about it during the election being dismissed as part of the idioticly named project fear. However people from Ireland and Britain will have travel and work access for the foreseeable future.

I honestly don't see how the following can stand

Soft border
Ireland a member of the EU common travel area
The Ireland and UK common travel area remains

If the UK isn't part of the UK not a member of the EU common travel area

Jayop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I honestly don't see how the following can stand

Soft border
Ireland a member of the EU common travel area
The Ireland and UK common travel area remains

If the UK isn't part of the UK not a member of the EU common travel area

It won't be easy but the cta will happen. The soft border is a bigger problem due to customs.

4068ac1elhodqr

There may even be campaigns to attract workers from Ireland, if skills shortages become apparent after the greater EU exodus.

The UK is seeing a surge of interest in workers seeking to move to Ireland.
They may also be able to buy 95 new pence with each euro of their enhanced pay packets, by the end of this year.

If the NI border was a land border with mainland EU continent, it would then probably be looked at in a very different light.

StupidLikeAFox

What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

LeinsterDub

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

Hard borders. Customs checks passport control etc.

alastair

fxotoole wrote: »

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

It's not just the CTA. The 1948 Ireland Act copperfastens the 'non-foreign' status of Irish in the UK, and no subsequent legislation can remove that status. Even if the CTA were to go, Irish in the UK will still have the same rights as they currently have within the UK.

Jayop

Brexit has created a new type of citizenship too surely. People from NI are entitled to dual citizenship so are now technically British/Irish/EU Citizens/Non-EU Citizens, all at the same time.

alastair

Jayop wrote: »

Brexit has created a new type of citizenship too surely. People from NI are entitled to dual citizenship so are now technically British/Irish/EU Citizens/Non-EU Citizens, all at the same time.

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

Jayop

alastair wrote: »

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

It does if it effects their freedom of movement which is what will happen if there's a hard border between the North and South. It will effect their rights as much (if not more) than if someone travelling between Belfast and Liverpool would have to present their passport/

alastair

Jayop wrote: »

It does if it effects their freedom of movement which is what will happen if there's a hard border between the North and South. It will effect their rights as much (if not more) than if someone travelling between Belfast and Liverpool would have to present their passport/

That's not a right derived from citizenship however. That's an inter-state agreement. National citizens (even those with dual nationality) retain all the rights they were afforded by their citizenship(s) beforehand.

InTheTrees

The open immigration between the two countries citizens might continue but theres going to have to be border controls to prevent citizens from third countries moving freely between UK and Ireland as well.

Jayop

InTheTrees wrote: »

The open immigration between the two countries citizens might continue but theres going to have to be border controls to prevent citizens from third countries moving freely between UK and Ireland as well.

The question is, will they have that border at the Irish Border with the North or will it be at the transport links between the North and Britain? It makes much more sense to have it at the ports and airports were people already have to present ID to board a plane. Just means people will now have to present ID boarding the ferry too.

Setting up hard borders with passport control along the Irish border will be a disaster, it'll cost the border communities a fortune, it'll cost a fortune to set up and being realistic, it could easily cause a return to more large scale troubles.

InTheTrees

Jayop wrote: »

The question is, will they have that border at the Irish Border with the North or will it be at the transport links between the North and Britain?

It doesnt seem right that one part of the UK would have passport controls between it and another part of the UK.
I cant see the northern Irish being happy about that despite the logistical arguments.

Jayop

InTheTrees wrote: »

It doesnt seem right that one part of the UK would have passport controls between it and another part of the UK.
I cant see the northern Irish being happy about that despite the logistical arguments.

Of course the hardline unionists will be unhappy about it. They're unhappy about pretty much everything though so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. A hard border between NI and ROI would cause much more damage to the NI economy than the damage having to present a passport, or even ID with nationality like a driving licence with place of birth on it (as all NI licences have) would do to their sensibilities. I'd imagine a unionist along the border that has reasons to cross the border with any regularity would surely have a preference for showing ID the odd time they travel to Britain rather then queuing at the border every time they want to get a fill of diesel/

oscarBravo

We're not necessarily just talking about showing a passport though, are we?

I mean, if we're looking at a hard brexit, to the point where the UK is no longer part of the customs union, there will have to be customs at the border, simply because it's an external border of the EU.

Jayop

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're not necessarily just talking about showing a passport though, are we?

I mean, if we're looking at a hard brexit, to the point where the UK is no longer part of the customs union, there will have to be customs at the border, simply because it's an external border of the EU.

The customs border will cause enough problems, but the UK will also want to police illegals entering it's territory. he question is, do they do that at the border between NI and the mainland UK, leaving NI open to those dreaded non-nationals, or do they go the whole hog and have a full passport/ID border checkpoint?

Considering the whole majority of people who voted for Brexit voted because of immigration, you'd have to wonder which they will go for.

Or as is also possible they could exit the EU but keep free movement in order to have access to the single market which will render the whole exercise a sham.

LordSutch

strikeforcefan wrote: »

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past ...

Irish people working in the UK Britain will not be sent back to Ireland. Ireland & Britain are far too close in so many ways, from geography to culture, to blood ties etc, so there is always a special place for Ireland when it comes to the neighbouring island, and vice versa of course. I crossed out 'the UK' because its always a misnomer to talk about the Irish in the UK, when you actually mean the Irish in Britain.

Jayop

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish people working in the UK Britain will not be sent back to Ireland. Ireland & Britain are far too close in so many ways, from geography to culture, to blood ties etc, so there is always a special place for Ireland when it comes to the neighbouring island, and vice versa of course. I crossed out 'the UK' because its always a misnomer to talk about the Irish in the UK, when you actually mean the Irish in Britain.

I don't agree with you too often, but this post is correct.

What's your opinion on what I speculated regarding a moderate unionist in the north along the border and their likely preference for passport control at the Irish border or at the ports for crossing to Britain?

LordSutch

Jayop wrote: »

I don't agree with you too often, but this post is correct.

What's your opinion on what I speculated regarding a moderate unionist in the north along the border and their likely preference for passport control at the Irish border or at the ports for crossing to Britain?

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

oscarBravo

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

Isn't that all bog-standard "it'll all be someone else's problem" empty brexit rhetoric?

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

This is something I've seen a lot of: people keep saying "nobody wants a hard border on the island", which doesn't in any way address the question of whether such a border will be an inevitable consequence of brexit, whether anyone wants it or not.

Jayop

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

I've heard that, but what are the British going to do? They won't be allowed British Immigration agents in the ROI, and I'm fairly sure that the likes of Knock airport won't be telling someone with a non UK/Irish passport that they can't board a flight to London if they have a ticket.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Isn't that all bog-standard "it'll all be someone else's problem" empty brexit rhetoric? This is something I've seen a lot of: people keep saying "nobody wants a hard border on the island", which doesn't in any way address the question of whether such a border will be an inevitable consequence of brexit, whether anyone wants it or not.

Like I said, it was one of the main issues for NI voters during the election, and any time anyone brought it up they were accused of fearmongering, when in reality it's was a very valid worry that there was clearly no plan in place for prior to the election.

Quite why the DUP canvassed for a yes vote given the consequences for it is almost beyond me.

Sam Russell

fxotoole wrote: »

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

Correct. Highlighted bit - not quite. UK citizens do not have the right to vote in Dail elections or Presidential elections.

alastair wrote: »

It's not just the CTA. The 1948 Ireland Act copperfastens the 'non-foreign' status of Irish in the UK, and no subsequent legislation can remove that status. Even if the CTA were to go, Irish in the UK will still have the same rights as they currently have within the UK.

Well, a direct act could delete that part of the act, but it would have to be specific as Parliament is sovereign in all matters (well mostly).

alastair wrote: »

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

Well, yes.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Correct. Highlighted bit - not quite. UK citizens do not have the right to vote in Dail elections or Presidential elections.

Not presidential elections, no - but they do get to vote for TDs.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html

alastair

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not presidential elections, no - but they do get to vote for TDs.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html

Which makes it truely reciprocal, since we don't get to vote for the British Monarch either.

Sam Russell

They (UK citizens) cannot vote in referendums either, so not quite reciprocal, since Irish citizens can vote in their referendums - not that they have many.

.

InTheTrees

So what's the answer?

What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?

Del.Monte

InTheTrees wrote: »

So what's the answer?

What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?

oscarBravo

InTheTrees wrote: »

So what's the answer?

What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?

We haven't a clue. Nobody has a clue. Nobody can possibly have a clue until we know what form brexit will take, and nobody has a clue about that either.

It's really quite difficult to envisage valid viable proposals for how to deal with the idea under any discernible change in circumstances other than the softest Brexit possible (UK leaves EU parliament, becomes EEA member instead - tough sell!)

Hard border dug in => roads closed, checkpoints. - Nobody wants this
No border => tariff free access in / out of UK/EU - This won't be permitted
Turn NI into a 'DMZ' area, moving the British border to the edge of the Island instead - Will go down like a sack of **** with the Unionists.

Today's situation is only available because of the exact situation that we all find ourselves in. It's pretty much untenable under any and all other organisations of the two states.

Jayop

It's just shocking that the British have allowed themselves to be duped into voting for something that even months after they still have no clue what it is. Just proves the power of scaremongering about foreigners.

Del.Monte

Jayop wrote: »

It's just shocking that the British have allowed themselves to be duped into voting for something that even months after they still have no clue what it is. Just proves the power of scaremongering about foreigners.

Yeah, obviously it was just uneducated thickos and racists that voted to leave. :rolleyes:

Jayop

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yeah, obviously it was just uneducated thickos and racists that voted to leave. :rolleyes:

If you gathered that from my post it says more about you than me.

Del.Monte

Jayop wrote: »

If you gathered that from my post it says more about you than me.

Why don't you explain what you meant then?

Jayop

Nowhere did I mention a lack of education or racism. You can have a PhD and still be duped into something. You can be filled with an irrational fear of foreigners by a constant media barrage and the twisted words of self serving politicians. The people themselves that fell into that trap are not necessarily racist, but no-one can deny that the issue of foreigners in the UK was probably the No1 reason for people voting leave.

Stasi 2.0

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

They have hard borders (checkpoints etc) which are fairly easy to implement because in most instances there are relatively few roads which cross their borders (Ireland has hundreds) and many of their borderlines are across major rivers, mountain ranges, dense forest or other geographical featutes which dont lend themselves to being easily crossed illegally. Whereas the Irish border bisects several villages, farms and even a few houses.

clarecoco

The European Union (EU) is an economic and political partnership involving 28 European countries. The European Union single market, which was completed in 1992, allows the free movement of goods, services, money and people within the European Union, as if it was a single country. Once a country leaves the EU then all goods exiting or entering that country are subject to customs documentation and customs tariffs as they apply.

The EU also has customs union agreements - which vary in scope, such as type of goods covered with countries like Turkey. Again Customs documents need to be presented at the approved exit/entry border point when importing for exporting commercial goods.
Norway, on the other hand, is part of the European Economic Area (EEA), which gives it access to the single market. There are some customs checks on the border between Norway and Sweden even though they are both part of the single market, to check for products originating outside Norway. Customs documentation will required to be completed for goods entering or leaving the UK when it leaves the EU.

Another issue is that VAT will have to be paid at the point of importation for UK goods exported to EU and vice versa for goods leaving EU to enter the UK.

All this talk about a soft border is a pointless. There will be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as the EU will insist that wherever there is an external EU border there needs to be border controls

ads20101

strikeforcefan wrote: »

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

There are approx 117,000 British passport holders over here

There are approx 500,000 Irish passport holders in the uk

Most I suspect have jobs. Many have families with children.

Some (like me) are in reasonably senior positions

To force repatriation would be a civil rights (and arguably, economic) disaster.

Reati

I know a terrific chap who'd build us a great wall along the northern border and get them to pay for it too.

Del.Monte

Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.

Jayop

Del.Monte wrote: »

Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.

Painless? I grew up in strabane and it was anything but painless.

Stasi 2.0

A person taking one off/occasional car journeys across the border in the early 1960's had a mountain of paperwork to contend with and border crossings were not open to vehicle traffic (there were barriers) 24/7 (remembering someone telling me about rushing back home via Fermanagh having watched the life of Brian in a Belfast cinema) dunno what the arrangements were like for those making regular journeys or living in border areas.

To claim the process was "painless" is utter nonsense.

FrancieBrady

Del.Monte wrote: »

Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.

That is almost as ill informed as an American tourist I once met where I live, about 150 metres from the old border.
They assumed that bullets would be whizzing by them as soon as they crossed over.

Let me tell you the border was a major inconvenience and one of the best recruiting aids for the IRA and other groups.

Del.Monte

Well, I'm going on my own experiences by car, bus and rail from 1969 to the present day and I never found the border greatly inconveniencing - there again I didn't have attitude, wasn't on active service or involved in smuggling.

FrancieBrady

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well, I'm going on my own experiences by car, bus and rail from 1969 to the present day and I never found the border greatly inconveniencing - there again I didn't have attitude, wasn't on active service or involved in smuggling.

And I am going on mine, of having to drive 18 miles to move machinery and animals just to get them from one part of a farm to another, having to cross a frontier sometimes 6 or 7 times a day.

That uninformed tourist also believed everybody was in a paramilitary organisation.