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Brexit borders

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    They (UK citizens) cannot vote in referendums either, so not quite reciprocal, since Irish citizens can vote in their referendums - not that they have many.

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    So what's the answer?

    What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    So what's the answer?

    What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?


    tin24h23-gai-min.jpg


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    So what's the answer?

    What will the border between ROI and NI look like after brexit is complete?

    We haven't a clue. Nobody has a clue. Nobody can possibly have a clue until we know what form brexit will take, and nobody has a clue about that either.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's really quite difficult to envisage valid viable proposals for how to deal with the idea under any discernible change in circumstances other than the softest Brexit possible (UK leaves EU parliament, becomes EEA member instead - tough sell!)

    Hard border dug in => roads closed, checkpoints. - Nobody wants this
    No border => tariff free access in / out of UK/EU - This won't be permitted
    Turn NI into a 'DMZ' area, moving the British border to the edge of the Island instead - Will go down like a sack of **** with the Unionists.

    Today's situation is only available because of the exact situation that we all find ourselves in. It's pretty much untenable under any and all other organisations of the two states.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    It's just shocking that the British have allowed themselves to be duped into voting for something that even months after they still have no clue what it is. Just proves the power of scaremongering about foreigners.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jayop wrote: »
    It's just shocking that the British have allowed themselves to be duped into voting for something that even months after they still have no clue what it is. Just proves the power of scaremongering about foreigners.

    Yeah, obviously it was just uneducated thickos and racists that voted to leave. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Yeah, obviously it was just uneducated thickos and racists that voted to leave. :rolleyes:

    If you gathered that from my post it says more about you than me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jayop wrote: »
    If you gathered that from my post it says more about you than me.

    Why don't you explain what you meant then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Nowhere did I mention a lack of education or racism. You can have a PhD and still be duped into something. You can be filled with an irrational fear of foreigners by a constant media barrage and the twisted words of self serving politicians. The people themselves that fell into that trap are not necessarily racist, but no-one can deny that the issue of foreigners in the UK was probably the No1 reason for people voting leave.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭Stasi 2.0


    What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

    They have hard borders (checkpoints etc) which are fairly easy to implement because in most instances there are relatively few roads which cross their borders (Ireland has hundreds) and many of their borderlines are across major rivers, mountain ranges, dense forest or other geographical featutes which dont lend themselves to being easily crossed illegally. Whereas the Irish border bisects several villages, farms and even a few houses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭clarecoco


    The European Union (EU) is an economic and political partnership involving 28 European countries. The European Union single market, which was completed in 1992, allows the free movement of goods, services, money and people within the European Union, as if it was a single country. Once a country leaves the EU then all goods exiting or entering that country are subject to customs documentation and customs tariffs as they apply.

    The EU also has customs union agreements - which vary in scope, such as type of goods covered with countries like Turkey. Again Customs documents need to be presented at the approved exit/entry border point when importing for exporting commercial goods.
    Norway, on the other hand, is part of the European Economic Area (EEA), which gives it access to the single market. There are some customs checks on the border between Norway and Sweden even though they are both part of the single market, to check for products originating outside Norway. Customs documentation will required to be completed for goods entering or leaving the UK when it leaves the EU.

    Another issue is that VAT will have to be paid at the point of importation for UK goods exported to EU and vice versa for goods leaving EU to enter the UK.

    All this talk about a soft border is a pointless. There will be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as the EU will insist that wherever there is an external EU border there needs to be border controls


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭ads20101


    From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

    There are approx 117,000 British passport holders over here

    There are approx 500,000 Irish passport holders in the uk

    Most I suspect have jobs. Many have families with children.

    Some (like me) are in reasonably senior positions

    To force repatriation would be a civil rights (and arguably, economic) disaster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    I know a terrific chap who'd build us a great wall along the northern border and get them to pay for it too.

    donald-trump-wants-to-make-mexico-pay-for-a-wall-writes-proposal-on-it-vgtrn-body-image-1459870127-size_1000.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.

    Painless? I grew up in strabane and it was anything but painless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭Stasi 2.0


    A person taking one off/occasional car journeys across the border in the early 1960's had a mountain of paperwork to contend with and border crossings were not open to vehicle traffic (there were barriers) 24/7 (remembering someone telling me about rushing back home via Fermanagh having watched the life of Brian in a Belfast cinema) dunno what the arrangements were like for those making regular journeys or living in border areas.

    To claim the process was "painless" is utter nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Many people here (on Boards) are either too young or uninformed about the old 'hard' border and are getting worked up about nothing. If it comes to pass it will probably return in the form of the pre-Troubles border that inconvenienced very few i.e customs posts and no security presence. Even at the height of the 'Troubles' crossing the border was relatively painless although a little stressful in some of the more heavily armed checkpoints like Aughnacloy where you could end up in the middle of a security incident. Sharks teeth to rip off tyres, hydraulic rams to demobilise vehicles and, of course, armed soldiers are unlikely to return. It suits some to whip up hysteria over a 'hard' border.

    That is almost as ill informed as an American tourist I once met where I live, about 150 metres from the old border.
    They assumed that bullets would be whizzing by them as soon as they crossed over. :D

    Let me tell you the border was a major inconvenience and one of the best recruiting aids for the IRA and other groups.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Well, I'm going on my own experiences by car, bus and rail from 1969 to the present day and I never found the border greatly inconveniencing - there again I didn't have attitude, wasn't on active service or involved in smuggling. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Well, I'm going on my own experiences by car, bus and rail from 1969 to the present day and I never found the border greatly inconveniencing - there again I didn't have attitude, wasn't on active service or involved in smuggling. :D
    And I am going on mine, of having to drive 18 miles to move machinery and animals just to get them from one part of a farm to another, having to cross a frontier sometimes 6 or 7 times a day.

    That uninformed tourist also believed everybody was in a paramilitary organisation.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭Stasi 2.0


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Well, I'm going on my own experiences by car, bus and rail from 1969 to the present day and I never found the border greatly inconveniencing - there again I didn't have attitude, wasn't on active service or involved in smuggling. :D

    Or you didn't
    4) Ever want to cross the border at odd hours (many crossings were closed at night)
    5) Live near an "unapproved road" (there were only around 20 "approved" crossing points) elsewhere roads were blocked and bridges destroyed


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Stasi 2.0 wrote: »
    Or you didn't
    4) Ever want to cross the border at odd hours (many crossings were closed at night)
    5) Live near an "unapproved road" (there were only around 20 "approved" crossing points) elsewhere roads were blocked and bridges destroyed

    Agreed, as I said based on my own experiences I had no difficulties, but I can quite see why there would be problems for locals. As for odd hours, I wouldn't go about in parts of Dublin at 'odd' hours let alone the border.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Agreed, as I said based on my own experiences I had no difficulties, but I can quite see why there would be problems for locals. As for odd hours, I wouldn't go about in parts of Dublin at 'odd' hours let alone the border.

    You do know that parishes were cut in two, sometimes 3 or 4 times by the border, that farms where similarly crossed by it, and in at least one case a house?
    Live in others shoes for a while. Your 'experience' is not the only one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,544 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Agreed, as I said based on my own experiences I had no difficulties,

    The usual I'm alright Jack, I don't live near the border so it isn't a problem, I live on a hill so floodings isn't an issue, my granny left me her house so what's all this homelessness thing aobut.

    The border harassment wasn't acceptable then and isn't acceptable now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Some good news.

    From the guardian

    Lisa O'Carroll
    Ireland got prominent mention in the Guy Verhofstadt press conference after the vote and a promise that there will be no hard border will be a boon to border businesses desperately worried about their future.

    Asked by an RTE reporter how difficult it would be to achieve the desire for no border controls, Verhofstadt said: “It will be very difficult and it will be very high on the priority list: no hard border, respect in all its aspects of the Good Friday agreement.”

    Notably he added: “It is the EU 27 who have to taken on board the [interests] of the Irish Republic, binding the Dublin vote closer to Brussels.”

    In a considerable coup for Ireland, the border issue is at the top of the priority list.

    The European parliament president Antonio Tajani also mentioned its predicament saying that the Good Friday Agreement, like the EU four freedoms, must not be touched.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Rte reporting same

    https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0405/865355-meps-northern-ireland/

    The European Parliament has endorsed a resolution which states that Brexit negotiations must recognise the "unique and special circumstances confronting the Island of Ireland".

    The resolution tabled by four separate groupings in the parliament, including the largest group the European People's Party, insists that negotiators must "ensure continuity and stability of the Northern Ireland peace process, and avoid the reestablishment of a hard border".

    The resolution also notes that Ireland will be particularly affected by the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union, and say that the negotiating process must fully reflect the positions and interests of the citizens of all member states including Ireland.

    The European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator has said resolving the question of the Irish border would be "very difficult" but "very high on the priority list".

    Guy Verhofstadt said negotiators wanted to ensure that there was no return of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    European Parliament President Antonio Tajani echoed those sentiments, saying Europe was "working for peace, not against it".

    They were speaking at a press conference following a vote by MEPs in Strasbourg to adopt a resolution setting out the parliaments priorities during the Brexit discussions.

    Speaking during a debate on Brexit, Manfred Weber from the European People's Party said that "the Northern Ireland question is a decisive one" saying it is important to "avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland".


    He also warned Britain that there would be no cherry-picking once it leaves the EU.

    "A state outside of the European cannot have the same or better conditions than a state inside the European Union," he said.

    Gianni Pitella, leader of the Alliance of Socialists and Democrats, said the EU had to defend the peace process in Northern Ireland.

    But Phillippe Lamberts of the Green Party said the UK had chosen the most extreme interpretation of the referendum, and opted for a hard Brexit.

    "How can you have a hard Brexit, without having a hard border in Ireland?" he asked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    This Phillipe Lamberts guy sounds like a bit of a pain. Green liberal apparently but coming out with that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Jayop wrote: »
    This Phillipe Lamberts guy sounds like a bit of a pain. Green liberal apparently but coming out with that.

    Sadly, he is correct, but perhaps it can be portacabins like back in the 1960s rather than fortresses?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Sadly, he is correct, but perhaps it can be portacabins like back in the 1960s rather than fortresses?

    His seems a sideline view, the chief negotiation team say no hard border. That means no border checks at all. A portacabin with a customs officer is a hard border. They are proposing in effect it stays as is.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,292 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jayop wrote: »
    His seems a sideline view, the chief negotiation team say no hard border. That means no border checks at all. A portacabin with a customs officer is a hard border. They are proposing in effect it stays as is.

    I wish some of these people would start talking about what they envisage instead.
    Still very much aspirational talk which could just be a prelude to saying 'Well we tried'.


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