Brexit borders

strikeforcefan · 12-10-2016 1:40pm #1

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2016 1:41pm

strikeforcefan wrote: »

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past well if this is the case I think it's only fair and right that will deport all the British workers and residents living in Ireland and also cease back and forth immigration by Britons.In my opinion it's only right they be treated equal.

You're grossly misinformed

strikeforcefan · 12-10-2016 1:44pm

I am? please elaborate

Nody · 12-10-2016 2:05pm

Because the negotiations are not completed yet (strictly speaking they have not started as they only start with the PM sending in the request to invoke clause 50 which triggers the 2 year negotiation period) there is no information on what will be implemented or how; however UK has expressed that they want EU workers in UK to be allowed to remain there (because if they did not do that EU would kick out the UK workers in EU) and to keep the current no passport union. Hence everything you've posted is theoretically possible but in reality it's in the snowball chance of hell category to actually happen.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2016 2:08pm

The current state of play is the UK government have 'guaranteed' the common travel area and no hard border. The situation you outlined above is the worst case scenario were the UK or Europe basically go mental and resort to the political and economic equivalent of MAD (mutually assured destruction)

fxotoole · 12-10-2016 2:16pm

strikeforcefan wrote: »

I am? please elaborate

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 2:21pm

There may well be a border from South to North despite people worrying about it during the election being dismissed as part of the idioticly named project fear. However people from Ireland and Britain will have travel and work access for the foreseeable future.

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2016 2:28pm

Jayop wrote: »

There may well be a border from South to North despite people worrying about it during the election being dismissed as part of the idioticly named project fear. However people from Ireland and Britain will have travel and work access for the foreseeable future.

I honestly don't see how the following can stand

Soft border
Ireland a member of the EU common travel area
The Ireland and UK common travel area remains

If the UK isn't part of the UK not a member of the EU common travel area

Jayop · 12-10-2016 2:32pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I honestly don't see how the following can stand

Soft border
Ireland a member of the EU common travel area
The Ireland and UK common travel area remains

If the UK isn't part of the UK not a member of the EU common travel area

It won't be easy but the cta will happen. The soft border is a bigger problem due to customs.

4068ac1elhodqr · 12-10-2016 2:32pm

There may even be campaigns to attract workers from Ireland, if skills shortages become apparent after the greater EU exodus.

The UK is seeing a surge of interest in workers seeking to move to Ireland.
They may also be able to buy 95 new pence with each euro of their enhanced pay packets, by the end of this year.

If the NI border was a land border with mainland EU continent, it would then probably be looked at in a very different light.

StupidLikeAFox · 12-10-2016 2:49pm

What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

LeinsterDub · 12-10-2016 3:07pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

What do Poland/Romania/Croatia/Finland do to manage this issue? They all share land borders with non-EU countries

Hard borders. Customs checks passport control etc.

alastair · 12-10-2016 3:47pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

It's not just the CTA. The 1948 Ireland Act copperfastens the 'non-foreign' status of Irish in the UK, and no subsequent legislation can remove that status. Even if the CTA were to go, Irish in the UK will still have the same rights as they currently have within the UK.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 3:56pm

Brexit has created a new type of citizenship too surely. People from NI are entitled to dual citizenship so are now technically British/Irish/EU Citizens/Non-EU Citizens, all at the same time.

alastair · 12-10-2016 3:59pm

Jayop wrote: »

Brexit has created a new type of citizenship too surely. People from NI are entitled to dual citizenship so are now technically British/Irish/EU Citizens/Non-EU Citizens, all at the same time.

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 4:09pm

alastair wrote: »

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

It does if it effects their freedom of movement which is what will happen if there's a hard border between the North and South. It will effect their rights as much (if not more) than if someone travelling between Belfast and Liverpool would have to present their passport/

alastair · 12-10-2016 4:14pm

Jayop wrote: »

It does if it effects their freedom of movement which is what will happen if there's a hard border between the North and South. It will effect their rights as much (if not more) than if someone travelling between Belfast and Liverpool would have to present their passport/

That's not a right derived from citizenship however. That's an inter-state agreement. National citizens (even those with dual nationality) retain all the rights they were afforded by their citizenship(s) beforehand.

InTheTrees · 12-10-2016 4:21pm

The open immigration between the two countries citizens might continue but theres going to have to be border controls to prevent citizens from third countries moving freely between UK and Ireland as well.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 4:37pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

The open immigration between the two countries citizens might continue but theres going to have to be border controls to prevent citizens from third countries moving freely between UK and Ireland as well.

The question is, will they have that border at the Irish Border with the North or will it be at the transport links between the North and Britain? It makes much more sense to have it at the ports and airports were people already have to present ID to board a plane. Just means people will now have to present ID boarding the ferry too.

Setting up hard borders with passport control along the Irish border will be a disaster, it'll cost the border communities a fortune, it'll cost a fortune to set up and being realistic, it could easily cause a return to more large scale troubles.

InTheTrees · 12-10-2016 7:12pm

Jayop wrote: »

The question is, will they have that border at the Irish Border with the North or will it be at the transport links between the North and Britain?

It doesnt seem right that one part of the UK would have passport controls between it and another part of the UK.
I cant see the northern Irish being happy about that despite the logistical arguments.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 8:07pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

It doesnt seem right that one part of the UK would have passport controls between it and another part of the UK.
I cant see the northern Irish being happy about that despite the logistical arguments.

Of course the hardline unionists will be unhappy about it. They're unhappy about pretty much everything though so I'd take that with a pinch of salt. A hard border between NI and ROI would cause much more damage to the NI economy than the damage having to present a passport, or even ID with nationality like a driving licence with place of birth on it (as all NI licences have) would do to their sensibilities. I'd imagine a unionist along the border that has reasons to cross the border with any regularity would surely have a preference for showing ID the odd time they travel to Britain rather then queuing at the border every time they want to get a fill of diesel/

oscarBravo · 12-10-2016 8:21pm

We're not necessarily just talking about showing a passport though, are we?

I mean, if we're looking at a hard brexit, to the point where the UK is no longer part of the customs union, there will have to be customs at the border, simply because it's an external border of the EU.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 8:28pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're not necessarily just talking about showing a passport though, are we?

I mean, if we're looking at a hard brexit, to the point where the UK is no longer part of the customs union, there will have to be customs at the border, simply because it's an external border of the EU.

The customs border will cause enough problems, but the UK will also want to police illegals entering it's territory. he question is, do they do that at the border between NI and the mainland UK, leaving NI open to those dreaded non-nationals, or do they go the whole hog and have a full passport/ID border checkpoint?

Considering the whole majority of people who voted for Brexit voted because of immigration, you'd have to wonder which they will go for.

Or as is also possible they could exit the EU but keep free movement in order to have access to the single market which will render the whole exercise a sham.

LordSutch · 12-10-2016 9:01pm

strikeforcefan wrote: »

From what I hear and I could be wrong but I hear that the Irish working in the UK will be deported and sent back to Ireland and back and forth immigration between the two countries will be a thing of the past ...

Irish people working in the UK Britain will not be sent back to Ireland. Ireland & Britain are far too close in so many ways, from geography to culture, to blood ties etc, so there is always a special place for Ireland when it comes to the neighbouring island, and vice versa of course. I crossed out 'the UK' because its always a misnomer to talk about the Irish in the UK, when you actually mean the Irish in Britain.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 9:08pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish people working in the UK Britain will not be sent back to Ireland. Ireland & Britain are far too close in so many ways, from geography to culture, to blood ties etc, so there is always a special place for Ireland when it comes to the neighbouring island, and vice versa of course. I crossed out 'the UK' because its always a misnomer to talk about the Irish in the UK, when you actually mean the Irish in Britain.

I don't agree with you too often, but this post is correct.

What's your opinion on what I speculated regarding a moderate unionist in the north along the border and their likely preference for passport control at the Irish border or at the ports for crossing to Britain?

LordSutch · 12-10-2016 9:26pm

Jayop wrote: »

I don't agree with you too often, but this post is correct.

What's your opinion on what I speculated regarding a moderate unionist in the north along the border and their likely preference for passport control at the Irish border or at the ports for crossing to Britain?

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

oscarBravo · 12-10-2016 9:35pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

Isn't that all bog-standard "it'll all be someone else's problem" empty brexit rhetoric?

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

This is something I've seen a lot of: people keep saying "nobody wants a hard border on the island", which doesn't in any way address the question of whether such a border will be an inevitable consequence of brexit, whether anyone wants it or not.

Jayop · 12-10-2016 10:06pm

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know what Theresa may & Co are cooking up in their Westminster kitchen, but from hints given by the NI secretary + TM, I get the 'impression' that the ROI itself may be some kind of frontier between the UK & Europe! whatever that means!

The NI soft & open border will remain, but the ports & airports into the ROI will be policed in such a way as to keep the UK authorities happy??? I'm guessing. I suspect there will also be a very sophisticated surveylance system setup on the invisible border between NI & the Republic.

A hard border on the island of ireland will NOT return, (well not at the behest of the British Gov).
The EU on the other hand may insist on one? in a worst case scenario . . . .

I've heard that, but what are the British going to do? They won't be allowed British Immigration agents in the ROI, and I'm fairly sure that the likes of Knock airport won't be telling someone with a non UK/Irish passport that they can't board a flight to London if they have a ticket.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Isn't that all bog-standard "it'll all be someone else's problem" empty brexit rhetoric? This is something I've seen a lot of: people keep saying "nobody wants a hard border on the island", which doesn't in any way address the question of whether such a border will be an inevitable consequence of brexit, whether anyone wants it or not.

Like I said, it was one of the main issues for NI voters during the election, and any time anyone brought it up they were accused of fearmongering, when in reality it's was a very valid worry that there was clearly no plan in place for prior to the election.

Quite why the DUP canvassed for a yes vote given the consequences for it is almost beyond me.

Sam Russell · 13-10-2016 1:52pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Common Travel Area. This predates the EU. Essentially Irish citizens living in the UK are treated the same of UK nationals living in the UK, and vice versa. Irish citizens living in the UK cannot be deported, they can vote in the same elections as UK citizens, right down to local elections, and (if I remember correctly) they can run for election in the UK.

It's a reciprocal arrangement, and applies in the reverse to UK nationals living in Ireland.

Correct. Highlighted bit - not quite. UK citizens do not have the right to vote in Dail elections or Presidential elections.

alastair wrote: »

It's not just the CTA. The 1948 Ireland Act copperfastens the 'non-foreign' status of Irish in the UK, and no subsequent legislation can remove that status. Even if the CTA were to go, Irish in the UK will still have the same rights as they currently have within the UK.

Well, a direct act could delete that part of the act, but it would have to be specific as Parliament is sovereign in all matters (well mostly).

alastair wrote: »

Makes no real difference to the status quo of citizenship. It doesn't change any rights or responsibilities at the citizenship level.

Well, yes.

oscarBravo · 13-10-2016 2:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Correct. Highlighted bit - not quite. UK citizens do not have the right to vote in Dail elections or Presidential elections.

Not presidential elections, no - but they do get to vote for TDs.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html

alastair · 13-10-2016 3:30pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not presidential elections, no - but they do get to vote for TDs.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html

Which makes it truely reciprocal, since we don't get to vote for the British Monarch either.

Brexit borders

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