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Brexit borders

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    I wish some of these people would start talking about what they envisage instead.
    Still very much aspirational talk which could just be a prelude to saying 'Well we tried'.

    This seems to be a vote on what they want to achieve. Hard to say how it will end up before the negotiation takes place.

    One thing for sure is that the EU aren't going to be pushed around by Britain and they are taking a hard stance with them. For me the border issue is up to the EU as the English will want to keep the status quo so as to prevent any return to trouble in the north. Now that the EU have declared this is what they want then I'm happy this is what will happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,385 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jayop wrote: »
    This seems to be a vote on what they want to achieve. Hard to say how it will end up before the negotiation takes place.

    One thing for sure is that the EU aren't going to be pushed around by Britain and they are taking a hard stance with them. For me the border issue is up to the EU as the English will want to keep the status quo so as to prevent any return to trouble in the north. Now that the EU have declared this is what they want then I'm happy this is what will happen.

    But wouldn't you think that by now somebody would be marketing a feasible alternative?
    All this aspirational talk isn't allaying any fears up here on the actual border unfortunately.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    But wouldn't you think that by now somebody would be marketing a feasible alternative?
    All this aspirational talk isn't allaying any fears up here on the actual border unfortunately.

    The alternative is the status quo. What needs to change physically? If companies are trading with the north legally they will be paying whatever duties that are required, if not then they are no different to the smugglers operating now.

    For movement of people, remember when the EU expanded a few years and Ireland was open to people from Eastern Europe before the north was? There was no hard border put in place then to ensure they weren't crossing the border. I imagine that if someone was in the north and suspected of being there illegally they would be stopped and checked.

    That's all that needs to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,385 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jayop wrote: »
    The alternative is the status quo. What needs to change physically? If companies are trading with the north legally they will be paying whatever duties that are required, if not then they are no different to the smugglers operating now.

    For movement of people, remember when the EU expanded a few years and Ireland was open to people from Eastern Europe before the north was? There was no hard border put in place then to ensure they weren't crossing the border. I imagine that if someone was in the north and suspected of being there illegally they would be stopped and checked.

    That's all that needs to happen.

    Which is fine as long as the status quo remains. What happens if prices fluctuate more, as they may do. Or EU subsidies attract nefarious carry on with livestock etc. or if Britain remains an attractive place for migrants and they begin coming through from the ROI?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Which is fine as long as the status quo remains. What happens if prices fluctuate more, as they may do. Or EU subsidies attract nefarious carry on with livestock etc. or if Britain remains an attractive place for migrants and they begin coming through from the ROI?

    None of that has to be dealt with at a border crossing though. Migrants won't find ni too attractive and would be hoping to hop over to the UK. They would still need id to get on a flight. Have the same at the ports and problem solved.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Jayop wrote: »
    The alternative is the status quo. What needs to change physically? If companies are trading with the north legally they will be paying whatever duties that are required, if not then they are no different to the smugglers operating now.

    For movement of people, remember when the EU expanded a few years and Ireland was open to people from Eastern Europe before the north was? There was no hard border put in place then to ensure they weren't crossing the border. I imagine that if someone was in the north and suspected of being there illegally they would be stopped and checked.

    That's all that needs to happen.

    Ourselves and the UK were 2 of only 3 countries to immediately allow access to all citizens of recently entered EU states. When did the UK bar Eastern Europeans?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Ourselves and the UK were 2 of only 3 countries to immediately allow access to all citizens of recently entered EU states. When did the UK bar Eastern Europeans?

    Ah maybe I'm wrong about that. I had thought that we had allowed access before the UK had. Soz.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    You're pretty far from right but it could happen someday, though that is a very slim chance. Irish passports have long had a special status in the UK and our Common Travel Area predates the European Union.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    How will it effect the airports? Easy for the UK presumably because they can scrap the EU and Non-EU queue's and just have everyone processed together.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Seems like our Government did a damn good job standing up for the North and keeping things as close to the current situation as possible - both the UK and the EU have been singing off more or less the same hymnsheet for a few months now and it's now in the official EU negotiations as well.

    Will they get any credit for their quiet diplomacy from the natives? Of course they won't, even though this was no mean achievement on our Government's behalf and totally disproves the notion that we have no say in the supposedly godawful EU.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Elemonator wrote: »
    You're pretty far from right but it could happen someday, though that is a very slim chance. Irish passports have long had a special status in the UK and our Common Travel Area predates the European Union.

    The treaties of the EU includes a protocol to allow the two EU memeber states to continue to have the CTA agreement. As the U.K. becomes a third country the treaty would an international agreement and thus contrary to EU rules.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    The op is grossly misinformed. Sure we run almost every construction company in the uk. The palce would grind to a halt.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    How will it effect the airports? Easy for the UK presumably because they can scrap the EU and Non-EU queue's and just have everyone processed together.

    They also loose access to Schengen databases etc so security clearance may slow down.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    The treaties of the EU includes a protocol to allow the two EU memeber states to continue to have the CTA agreement. As the U.K. becomes a third country the treaty would an international agreement and thus contrary to EU rules.

    As we are not in Shengen, and the UK (after it leaves) can implement any version of the CTA it likes - unilaterally, I think they would be outside any EU oversight, (depending on the settlement). I would think we could do the same wrt UK citizens - it is is merely a passport thing. I doubt the EU would be involved given the pointed remarks relating to NI, but anyway, it is all subject to the settlement.

    CTA is free movement of Irish and UK passport holders, not everyone. If you need a visa to enter the UK, you still need one even if you are allowed into Ireland. There are people who cannot avail of the CTA, however, it is not policed.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Jayop wrote: »
    They would still need id to get on a flight. Have the same at the ports and problem solved.

    But that would mean unionists would have to show their passports when traveling in the U.K. - doubt the U.K. Government can sell that one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    But that would mean unionists would have to show their passports when traveling in the U.K. - doubt the U.K. Government can sell that one.

    I doubt the UK government would give too much of a rats ass tbh. They also could most likely just show any official ID like a license to make it am easier sell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    It doesnt seem right that one part of the UK would have passport controls between it and another part of the UK.
    I cant see the northern Irish being happy about that despite the logistical arguments.

    What we are going to see (And its already happening) is beefed up immigration between ROI and the rest of the World.

    I have many visitors staying with me from overseas and the ones from outside the EU have had a tough time at immigration recently. Two travelers from South America (who did not need visas) were refused entry because they came on a one-way ticket.

    Ireland is strengthening its external borders so the border with the North can stay open.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    That's quite the accusation, to claim there's been a huge unannounced change in Irish immigration policy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    What we are going to see (And its already happening) is beefed up immigration between ROI and the rest of the World.

    I have many visitors staying with me from overseas and the ones from outside the EU have had a tough time at immigration recently. Two travelers from South America (who did not need visas) were refused entry because they came on a one-way ticket.

    Ireland is strengthening its external borders so the border with the North can stay open.

    It's certainly getting tougher on immigration but this was happening pre-Brexit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    Jayop wrote: »
    That's quite the accusation, to claim there's been a huge unannounced change in Irish immigration policy.

    The rules have not changed but they are being enforced more.

    Last year the Garda unit that checked passports was replaced by a new Irish Immigration Service.

    I can only say it as I see it. I have been a Couchsurfing host for eight years but only since last year have I been receiving phone calls from Irish immigration asking questions about people who are staying with me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    The rules have not changed but they are being enforced more.

    Last year the Garda unit that checked passports was replaced by a new Irish Immigration Service.

    I can only say it as I see it. I have been a Couchsurfing host for eight years but only since last year have I been receiving phone calls from Irish immigration asking questions about people who are staying with me.

    Ya I totally didn't mean to come across as calling you a liar or anything, I just find that a big change in enforcement attitude coming from an official level would be reported upon or leaked to the press.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    Jayop wrote: »
    Ya I totally didn't mean to come across as calling you a liar or anything, I just find that a big change in enforcement attitude coming from an official level would be reported upon or leaked to the press.

    I don't really see it as a "Big Change". The rules have been there all the time but Garda Immigration Bureau were not enforcing them very severely. The new Irish immigration service are enforcing them much more, whether due to Brexit or just because they are a new service, I can't really say for sure but I think Brexit has something to do with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    I don't really see it as a "Big Change". The rules have been there all the time but Garda Immigration Bureau were not enforcing them very severely. The new Irish immigration service are enforcing them much more, whether due to Brexit or just because they are a new service, I can't really say for sure but I think Brexit has something to do with it.

    Ah well if the timing coincided with a new immigration service then that's different. Could be a combination of that and brexit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    The treaties of the EU includes a protocol to allow the two EU memeber states to continue to have the CTA agreement. As the U.K. becomes a third country the treaty would an international agreement and thus contrary to EU rules.

    Thank you for the correction! :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    The treaties of the EU includes a protocol to allow the two EU memeber states to continue to have the CTA agreement. As the U.K. becomes a third country the treaty would an international agreement and thus contrary to EU rules.

    it isn't a treaty, it is stand alone legislation in each country.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    it isn't a treaty, it is stand alone legislation in each country.

    Go read the protocol to the treaty... the Irish constitution and in particular the provisions restricting the Dail's power to legislate in contradiction of the treaty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Go read the protocol to the treaty... the Irish constitution and in particular the provisions restricting the Dail's power to legislate in contradiction of the treaty.

    I would, but it sounds like hard work.

    My understanding was that the CTA is a reciprocal agreement, but not one which is actually legislated for. A treaty would suggest that both parties are bound by it, when it reality, either party can withdraw at their own discretion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,216 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Fred is correct. The CTA - the 'A' stands for "area", not "agreement" - is the result of policy co-ordination by the UK and Irish governments. Each country pursues a policy of having minimal or no movement control over people entering from the other country.

    Following Brexit, and assuming the UK is outside the single market, the customs union, etc, then EU rules will require Ireland to control goods entering Ireland from the UK, but SFAIK it will impose no requirement to control people entering Ireland from the UK. EU member states are free to implement their own policy as regards entry by third-country nationals. If Ireland were to join the Schengen zone, then we'd have an obligation to police the Schengen common visa policy, which might required controlling the border with the UK. But Brexit alone won't have that result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Look on the bright side, it will give the smuggling sector a massive boost.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭vg88


    How would this work say: Farmer A lives in the South, but half his farm is on the north side of the border while the other half is on the south. How would a border work with half way through the land?


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