Dem cyclists all break de lights Joe!

Dermot Illogical

http://www.thejournal.ie/cyclists-dublin-3018953-Oct2016/

Roadhawk

"GARDAÍ HAVE CAUGHT 24 times more motorists than cyclists breaking red lights so far this year in Dublin."...
now we need to ask if there are 24 times more cars than cyclists.

Dermot Illogical

The answer to that is in the article. Go past the headline ftw.

Roadhawk

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

The answer to that is in the article. Go past the headline ftw.

I did literal only read the first line haha

buffalo

I was sitting in traffic in Newbridge yesterday afternoon, watching the oncoming traffic as we crawled along. Definitely over 50% on the phone, including the driver of a double decker bus.

</anecdotal evidence>

the.red.baron

I'd say both figures show how much regard the ngardíí have for the offence so are meaningless

Roadhawk

buffalo wrote: »

I was sitting in traffic in Newbridge yesterday afternoon, watching the oncoming traffic as we crawled along. Definitely over 50% on the phone, including the driver of a double decker bus.

</anecdotal evidence>

is this about red lights or mobile phones?

Hunterbiker

Roadhawk wrote: »

is this about red lights or mobile phones?

I'd say it should be about road user behaviour...

Moflojo

TheJournal.ie has been one of the few sensible & balanced media outlets reporting on cycling issues in the recent past and should be commended for it. While most news sites ran with "Car Ban proposed on the Quays!" last week, The Journal framed the story in a positive light, focusing on how a proposed route for the Liffey cycleway had been agreed.

Good on them.

mcginty28

in fairness everyone is at it but I believe the cyclist figures to be low due to to poor detection by gardai. How often do you see gardai manning a junction and waiting for road users to break lights? A cyclist does not have a reg plate so if picked up on camera running a red light there is no way to prosecute hence the low figures.

beauf

...Pedestrians were involved in 42% of all fatal collisions in the Dublin metropolitan region between 2013 and 2016 to date...

Maybe they should make pedestrians wear hiz viz, helmets and a registration plate also.

Moflojo

beauf wrote: »

Maybe they should make pedestrians wear hiz viz, helmets and a registration plate also.

They should have insurance. If one of them pet oestrogens knocks me off my bike and damages it who's going to pick up the bill? Yours trudi, dats who.

RayCun

mcginty28 wrote: »

in fairness everyone is at it but I believe the cyclist figures to be low due to to poor detection by gardai. How often do you see gardai manning a junction and waiting for road users to break lights? A cyclist does not have a reg plate so if picked up on camera running a red light there is no way to prosecute hence the low figures.

How many cameras are there picking up cars running red lights and how many prosecutions have resulted?

NiallBoo

mcginty28 wrote: »

in fairness everyone is at it but I believe the cyclist figures to be low due to to poor detection by gardai. How often do you see gardai manning a junction and waiting for road users to break lights?

that goes for everyone, so it's not a way of disputing the figures.

mcginty28 wrote: »

A cyclist does not have a reg plate so if picked up on camera running a red light there is no way to prosecute hence the low figures.

It will let controllers see if it's happened and can alert nearby gardai. It also means there's hard evidence when they go to prosecute.

I also like how your comment suggest that there's more than a couple of red-light cameras, t'would be a fine thing.

Anyway, something doesn't have to work for everything to be worthwhile, if it helps for a large number of cases then it's worth it.

Veloce150

mcginty28 wrote:

in fairness everyone is at it but I believe the cyclist figures to be low due to to poor detection by gardai. How often do you see gardai manning a junction and waiting for road users to break lights? A cyclist does not have a reg plate so if picked up on camera running a red light there is no way to prosecute hence the low figures.

You might have a point if the report was about fienes or prosecutions. The report states that the Gardai had recorded the offences. This means that they simply counted them. No need to identify the offenders.

Indeed, if amber light offences and failure to stop before the stop line were included the number of offenders would be even higher.

The numbers are quite credible when you consider this report from the RSA Free Speed Survey 2103: (again, where they simply count offences but don't bring the offenders to justice)

The proportion of cars exceeding the speed limit on urban arterial roads (in 50km/h zones) increased from 74% in 2012 to 82% in 2013

Thargor

I've been cycling around Paris for the last few days, it's absolutely hilarious coming on boards and reading the petty little complaints about cyclists in Dublin and other Irish towns. Paris has to be seen to be believed, traffic lights are just a suggestion for all parties, pedestrian, motorist, motorcyclist and cyclists, it's a total free for all, if there's a gap you go for it, that's about the only rule and tbh its an absolute breath of fresh air, everyone gets where they're going, traffic light cycles are about 50% shorter than at home and accidents are about half the Irish levels aswell. Everyone is nicer to each other on the road aswell, people give way to each other so much more and it makes everything flow so much more smoothly.

DirkVoodoo

Anyone who has any doubts about how many motorists break red lights, park yourself at the new Sandyford junction for a few hours (under the luas bridge).

It's actually hilarious!

Yep, plenty of cyclists break lights and it annoys me, but not as much as riding without lights. We can moan about this till the cows come home, but as the statistics show, cyclists breaking red lights pose very little danger to traffic or pedestrians.

This media (newstalk) us vs them mentality has really become embedded into the mind of the Irish commuter, I parked my bike outside the Lidl in Stillorgan about 6 months ago, had to move some people in their 20s blocking the bike rack. They moved, then the ugly obnoxious one started talking about his recent trip at the weekend, he passed a group of cyclists as close as he could without hitting them, and was telling his chums how he only wished he could have clipped them.

I was angry at that point. I wanted to ask the 2 girls he was with if he had talked about assaulting women/children/cute pets in that way, for his own enjoyment, would they find it as hilarious. I think we've crossed a very dangerous bridge of this behaviour becoming acceptable...I bet everyone on this forum has had someone tell them a story of how much they hate cyclists and they shouldn't be on the roads.

2RockMountain

Roadhawk wrote: »

is this about red lights or mobile phones?

Why? Does it bug you when people highlight the number of motorists who use their phones, speed, have 1 or 2 lights missing when you're trying to stir up a storm around cycling again?

Hunterbiker wrote: »

I'd say it should be about risky road user behaviour...

FYP

Chuchote

the.red.baron wrote: »

I'd say both figures show how much regard the ngardíí have for the offence so are meaningless

I have seen a garda waiting and pouncing on cyclists (and also on drivers) in front of Trinity day after day, and he's taking names and addresses.

/anecdotal evidence

mcginty28 wrote: »

in fairness everyone is at it but I believe the cyclist figures to be low due to to poor detection by gardai. How often do you see gardai manning a junction and waiting for road users to break lights? A cyclist does not have a reg plate so if picked up on camera running a red light there is no way to prosecute hence the low figures.

Not at all; all you have to do is have a camera at one lights and a garda at the next, with the camera transmitting pictures to the garda's phone. Then the garda can happily pick up the fish in a barrel.

beauf wrote: »

Maybe they should make pedestrians wear hiz viz, helmets and a registration plate also.

Yes, and hire lots of new civil servants to administer this, and divert lots of gardaí to checking, rather than silly old crime.

Thargor wrote: »

I've been cycling around Paris for the last few days, it's absolutely hilarious coming on boards and reading the petty little complaints about cyclists in Dublin and other Irish towns. Paris has to be seen to be believed, traffic lights are just a suggestion for all parties, pedestrian, motorist, motorcyclist and cyclists, it's a total free for all, if there's a gap you go for it, that's about the only rule and tbh its an absolute breath of fresh air, everyone gets where they're going, traffic light cycles are about 50% shorter than at home and accidents are about half the Irish levels aswell. Everyone is nicer to each other on the road aswell, people give way to each other so much more and it makes everything flow so much more smoothly.

Ah, but this is a reason for checking the road laws in a country when you want to cycle there. In Paris, it is perfectly legal to cycle or drive through some red lights (for instance, pedestrian lights) if it is safe to do so. It's not a free-for-all, it is the law.

Actually, the LA Times had an editorial about changing cycle law:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/livable-city/la-oe-babin-bicycle-laws-20161003-snap-story.html

Paris, for example, recently took the Idaho stop law even further, allowing cyclists to treat some red lights as yields. The law not only gives cyclists a leg up on cars, but sanctions behavior cyclists already employ to efficiently navigate the city…
Some European countries, such as Denmark and the Netherlands, have restructured their liability laws to hold motorists responsible in most collisions with cyclists. The law places responsibility for safety on the more dangerous road user.

Roadhawk

2RockMountain wrote: »

Why? Does it bug you when people highlight the number of motorists who use their phones, speed, have 1 or 2 lights missing when you're trying to stir up a storm around cycling again?

No not really. I was merely setting out to stay on topic to the OP. I know how much people hate the "whataboutery" that can fester.

beauf

Roadhawk wrote: »

No not really. I was merely setting out to stay on topic to the OP. I know how much people hate the "whataboutery" that can fester.

You want us to focus on the issues that aren't important when it comes to road safety.

Chuchote

Mobile phone use in cars isn't going to stop until a politician crashes and dies while visibly on his mobile phone, imho.

beauf

Until the Garda can use the money from fines in improving the service.

Chips Lovell

Roadhawk wrote: »

is this about red lights or mobile phones?

Roadhawk wrote: »

No not really. I was merely setting out to stay on topic to the OP. I know how much people hate the "whataboutery" that can fester.

@Roadhawk. If you're just here to wind people up, don't post.

Thank you

2RockMountain

Roadhawk wrote: »

No not really. I was merely setting out to stay on topic to the OP. I know how much people hate the "whataboutery" that can fester.

I'd guess that people hate your fetish for digging at cyclists/cycling despite low risk levels more than 'whataboutery' tbh.

nhunter100

Moflojo wrote:

They should have insurance. If one of them pet oestrogens knocks me off my bike and damages it who's going to pick up the bill? Yours trudi, dats who.

Oestrogens? Those f**king hormones, there're everywhere Joe knocking trudi off her bike.

nhunter100

Thargor wrote:

I've been cycling around Paris for the last few days, it's absolutely hilarious coming on boards and reading the petty little complaints about cyclists in Dublin and other Irish towns. Paris has to be seen to be believed, traffic lights are just a suggestion for all parties, pedestrian, motorist, motorcyclist and cyclists, it's a total free for all, if there's a gap you go for it, that's about the only rule and tbh its an absolute breath of fresh air, everyone gets where they're going, traffic light cycles are about 50% shorter than at home and accidents are about half the Irish levels aswell. Everyone is nicer to each other on the road aswell, people give way to each other so much more and it makes everything flow so much more smoothly.

You really want to get a fright? try Rome, that said it seems to work.

beauf

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/cyclists-dublin-3018953-Oct2016/

This article is not about cyclists, its about drivers. Even if it mentions cyclists. It has no information about cyclists.

oflahero

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I bet everyone on this forum has had someone tell them a story of how much they hate cyclists and they shouldn't be on the roads.

I've found it particularly Dublin-centric. Took a spin down to Athlone yesterday, and once beyond Leixlip it was all cheery waves and consideration all round.

Once you take commuting and traffic lights out of the equation, everything calms back down.

Still, you're right. We've got to a point where it's now actually not unthinkable that some numbnuts is going to propose a national ID/registration plate system for bikes.

Roadhawk

beauf wrote: »

This article is not about cyclists, its about drivers. Even if it mentions cyclists. It has no information about cyclists.

I quite agree.

I think its time for red light cameras. The gardai are only catching a portion of the people breaking lights so if this was automated we'd be sure to see the numbers spike until it molds driver behaviour.

MeatTwoVeg

Roadhawk wrote:

"GARDAÃ HAVE CAUGHT 24 times more motorists than cyclists breaking red lights so far this year in Dublin."... now we need to ask if there are 24 times more cars than cyclists.

No, we need to ask are Gardai more likely to pull a motorist or cyclist they see breaking a light.

I've seen plenty of cyclists breaking lights in front of the Gardai with seemingly complete impunity.

rubadub

As I expected they have no figures on pedestrians caught illegally breaking red lights, by far the most common offence by road users that I see. I have seen people do it dangerously outside trinity college in full view of 4-5 gardai at the same light and they do absolutely nothing.

But sure I suppose nobody cares as pedestrians are "one of us", gooble-gobble, gooble-gobble.

the.red.baron

Chuchote wrote: »

I have seen a garda waiting and pouncing on cyclists (and also on drivers) in front of Trinity day after day, and he's taking names and addresses.

/anecdotal evidence

You anecdotal evidence seems to conflict with the number of convictions resulting from such actions. Re-enforcing what I said

Or maybe all the cyclists live at 123 Fakestreet?

You decide which sounds more plausible

NiallBoo

the.red.baron wrote: »

You anecdotal evidence seems to conflict with the number of convictions resulting from such actions. Re-enforcing what I said.

sorry mate, you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting squirrels.

the.red.baron

NiallBoo wrote: »

sorry mate, you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting squirrels.

say whaaaaat?

If there is a ngaaarda pouncing on people breaking the lights at trinity he would be able to account for the entire 54 convictions in just the one day

He'd be able to get more than that from me alone as I've broken the lights there every second or third morning easily

so put that squirrel in your pipe and smoke it

2RockMountain

the.red.baron wrote: »

Or maybe all the cyclists live at 123 Fakestreet?

You decide which sounds more plausible

Sure, because every Garda would believe Fakestreet and would not consider using their powers to seize the bike if they don't get adequate ID from the cyclist.

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

No, we need to ask are Gardai more likely to pull a motorist or cyclist they see breaking a light.

I've seen plenty of cyclists breaking lights in front of the Gardai with seemingly complete impunity.

I've seen plenty of motorists breaking lights, speeding, driving on the phone in front of Gardai with seemingly complete immunity.

the.red.baron

2RockMountain wrote: »

Sure, because every Garda would believe Fakestreet and would not consider using their powers to seize the bike if they don't get adequate ID from the cyclist.


I've seen plenty of motorists breaking lights, speeding, driving on the phone in front of Gardai with seemingly complete immunity.

Which sounds more plausible?

Do you understand what that word means?

Chuchote

the.red.baron wrote: »

You anecdotal evidence seems to conflict with the number of convictions resulting from such actions. Re-enforcing what I said

Or maybe all the cyclists live at 123 Fakestreet?

You decide which sounds more plausible

Where is the list of convictions, please?

josip

My Dissociative Identify Disorder worsens daily.
I cycle to work 2-3 times a week.
I drive to work 2-3 times a week.
I browse the cycling forum.
I browse the motors forum.
When I cycle, all the motorists are out to get me and I tut tut other cyclists without lights/at traffic lights
When I drive, all the cyclists are suicidal and I tut tut the motorists at traffic lights and roundabouts.

There are occasional pleasant interactions with the motorist/cyclist and briefly I feel that we're all commuters on a shared journey with a lot in common.
But these occasions are rare, like the morning sun flitting between the clouds and it quickly becomes overcast once more.
Every day I ask myself, was it always like this and I was just oblivious to it?

MeatTwoVeg

2RockMountain wrote:

I've seen plenty of motorists breaking lights, speeding, driving on the phone in front of Gardai with seemingly complete immunity.

Never seen that myself.
Sure you're not just making stuff up?

the.red.baron

Chuchote wrote: »

Where is the list of convictions, please?

Too much of a stretch to think that those records refer to convictions/fines etc?

I mean, there's hardly less than 54 fines etc thrown out for breaking a red light in the whole year?

or if there are, they aren't going into dem records

Beasty

the.red.baron wrote: »

so put that squirrel in your pipe and smoke it

the.red.baron wrote: »

Do you understand what that word means?

Please post in a civil manner, or don't post at all

Any questions, PM me - do not respond to this warning in-thread

Thanks

2RockMountain

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Never seen that myself.
Sure you're not just making stuff up?

I could ask you the same question. But seriously, do you reckon that these drivers who routinely blow through red lights checked to see if there was a Garda car round the corner or a Garda standing round the corner before they blew through the lights?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk

magicbastarder

rubadub wrote: »

As I expected they have no figures on pedestrians caught illegally breaking red lights, by far the most common offence by road users that I see. I have seen people do it dangerously outside trinity college in full view of 4-5 gardai at the same light and they do absolutely nothing.

because i suspect most gardai don't regard it as serious enough to have to go to the trouble of filling out the paperwork.

Hungrycol

Amanda Brunker: 'I've narrowly avoided killing three cyclists already this week - when will they wise up?'

http://www.independent.ie/life/city-cycling/amanda-brunker-ive-narrowly-avoided-killing-three-cyclists-already-this-week-when-will-they-wise-up-35120681.html

Seems to be trendy to hate cyclists at the moment.

average_runner

On Dame St this morning, 2 gardai on motorbikes were pulling in cyclists that went thru red lights.
Asking for proof of id and handing over what looks like a fine.
Saw them pull in at least 3 cyclists in a 20 min period.

rubadub

magicbastarder wrote: »

because i suspect most gardai don't regard it as serious enough to have to go to the trouble of filling out the paperwork.

I think it is since they have a blinkered view, maybe some of them are not even aware it is agains the law, wouldn't be the first time I heard of gardai ignorant of the law.

These people were crossing in a very dangerous manner, it is certainly more serious than some offences I have seen people pulled up for. The laws are there to prevent certain actions from happening, but many fairly benign acts will also fall under these laws. It makes sense that gardai will ignore many illegal acts, but I think I have only heard of one case of someone fined for illegally crossing a road in this country.

MeatTwoVeg

2RockMountain wrote:

I could ask you the same question. But seriously, do you reckon that these drivers who routinely blow through red lights checked to see if there was a Garda car round the corner or a Garda standing round the corner before they blew through the lights?

What's that got to do with what you originally posted?

average_runner

Roadhawk wrote: »

"GARDAÍ HAVE CAUGHT 24 times more motorists than cyclists breaking red lights so far this year in Dublin."...
now we need to ask if there are 24 times more cars than cyclists.

Maybe not cars but there can be 3 people driving the one car at different times!

Gardai don' t put the same effort into catching bikes because they are less dangerous

2RockMountain

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

What's that got to do with what you originally posted?

It shows how routine and endemic red light breaking by motorists has become. It happens at every junction at every change of lights. But some people have selective vision, and only see the cyclist scooting round the corner but never see the car/van/truck/bus blowing through the red lights as the pedestrians cross.

Your suggestion that this never happens in front of Gardai doesn't hold much water.

00sully

Dem cars do it too of course shock

(3 in first 8 seconds!)

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