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RAW Superthread
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Furious-Red wrote: »I hated the glass shatter thing everytime Matt would talk
Yeap, it utterly killed the reaction that it got, because the cuts weren't jarring any more. Its typical WWE. "Hey, that segment worked last week. let's redo it, but change a core mechanic to make it ours!"0 -
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All that production stuff, that's Kevin Dunn's department, isn't it?
"Bucky beaver motherfùcker."0 -
Furious-Red wrote: »I hated the glass shatter thing everytime Matt would talk
Once would have been more than enough. I know it's only week two but I fear they'll drive this into the ground.0 -
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J. Marston wrote: »All that production stuff, that's Kevin Dunn's department, isn't it?
"Bucky beaver motherfùcker."
I can never hear Dunn's name mentioned without the Cornette rants immediately playing in my head.0 -
No, and it should of happened last night!!0
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If we're honest, if you're looking at the segments as isolated pieces, both weeks of Matt Hardy were unbelievably shít.
the reason it got a good reaction the first week was because a character that the public was baying to see was finally on our screens. it got a nostalgia pop. and that's great. but the segment was fúcking terribly done. just like this week.
they've ripped the soul out of the character and turned him into a comedy act. the audience has been given no reason as to why Matt is acting the way he is. the verbiage is terrible. Broken Matt Hardy was wacky, but it still made sense. You knew why he was the way he was, and thus happily went along with it. the problem is the WWE's obsession with scripting their fúcking verbiage. i don't believe a single thing Matt says.
He's also been paired with Bray fúcking Wyatt. I mean, for the love of Christ. The quintessential momentum destroyer. I couldn't give less of a toss about Bray. Who could? He talks nonsense. We all zone out when he speaks. His delivery is fantastic but I can't follow him, and it doesn't matter anyway because the lad keeps losing so you can't possibly take him seriously anymore. Plus, could you have been more stereotypical than to put Bray and his nosensical verbiage, with Matt Hardy and his scripted nonsensical verbiage? The end result is nobody cares about anyone because there's no point of difference. You're already telling your audience that Matt isn't actually that unique or special.
Why the fúck does Vince hate us so fúcking much?
Can he not leave us with anything we like?
Can we not have nice things?
Must he fúck everything up?
Must his ego always dictate that he must put his own unique stamp on every fúcking character that someone comes to him with?
And most importantly, why do I still fúcking care if this show is any good? I must be absolutely insane.0 -
That. Was. Beautiful.0
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Is he "Woken" because WWE wants the rights to that or because Matt wants to keep "Broken" for his own use if/when he returns to the indies?0
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ROTY right there from SlickRic..0
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J. Marston wrote:Is he "Woken" because WWE wants the rights to that or because Matt wants to keep "Broken" for his own use if/when he returns to the indies?
Yes indeed0 -
If we're honest, if you're looking at the segments as isolated pieces, both weeks of Matt Hardy were unbelievably shít.
the reason it got a good reaction the first week was because a character that the public was baying to see was finally on our screens. it got a nostalgia pop. and that's great. but the segment was fúcking terribly done. just like this week.
they've ripped the soul out of the character and turned him into a comedy act. the audience has been given no reason as to why Matt is acting the way he is. the verbiage is terrible. Broken Matt Hardy was wacky, but it still made sense. You knew why he was the way he was, and thus happily went along with it. the problem is the WWE's obsession with scripting their fúcking verbiage. i don't believe a single thing Matt says.
He's also been paired with Bray fúcking Wyatt. I mean, for the love of Christ. The quintessential momentum destroyer. I couldn't give less of a toss about Bray. Who could? He talks nonsense. We all zone out when he speaks. His delivery is fantastic but I can't follow him, and it doesn't matter anyway because the lad keeps losing so you can't possibly take him seriously anymore. Plus, could you have been more stereotypical than to put Bray and his nosensical verbiage, with Matt Hardy and his scripted nonsensical verbiage? The end result is nobody cares about anyone because there's no point of difference. You're already telling your audience that Matt isn't actually that unique or special.
Why the fúck does Vince hate us so fúcking much?
Can he not leave us with anything we like?
Can we not have nice things?
Must he fúck everything up?
Must his ego always dictate that he must put his own unique stamp on every fúcking character that someone comes to him with?
And most importantly, why do I still fúcking care if this show is any good? I must be absolutely insane.
Is this the start of Broken SlickRic?0 -
If we're honest, if you're looking at the segments as isolated pieces, both weeks of Matt Hardy were unbelievably shít.
the reason it got a good reaction the first week was because a character that the public was baying to see was finally on our screens. it got a nostalgia pop. and that's great. but the segment was fúcking terribly done. just like this week.
they've ripped the soul out of the character and turned him into a comedy act. the audience has been given no reason as to why Matt is acting the way he is. the verbiage is terrible. Broken Matt Hardy was wacky, but it still made sense. You knew why he was the way he was, and thus happily went along with it. the problem is the WWE's obsession with scripting their fúcking verbiage. i don't believe a single thing Matt says.
He's also been paired with Bray fúcking Wyatt. I mean, for the love of Christ. The quintessential momentum destroyer. I couldn't give less of a toss about Bray. Who could? He talks nonsense. We all zone out when he speaks. His delivery is fantastic but I can't follow him, and it doesn't matter anyway because the lad keeps losing so you can't possibly take him seriously anymore. Plus, could you have been more stereotypical than to put Bray and his nosensical verbiage, with Matt Hardy and his scripted nonsensical verbiage? The end result is nobody cares about anyone because there's no point of difference. You're already telling your audience that Matt isn't actually that unique or special.
Why the fúck does Vince hate us so fúcking much?
Can he not leave us with anything we like?
Can we not have nice things?
Must he fúck everything up?
Must his ego always dictate that he must put his own unique stamp on every fúcking character that someone comes to him with?
And most importantly, why do I still fúcking care if this show is any good? I must be absolutely insane.
That was deeeeelllliightfullll0 -
I hated the Matt/Bray segment and actually had to mute it after ten seconds because it was too painful to endure.
I wouldn't blame Vince though. He wanted to use the character and as soon as Matt got the green light from Anthem the character was on screen ASAP using the old mannerisms. That tells me he wants it to do well otherwise he could have easily just held off on it and left Matt in midcard limbo. If there's money to be made, Vince will go for it.
I agree with the comment that last night had Kevin Dunn's paw prints all over it. I believe he's the one that wanted to tamper with Nakamura's entrance and all that over-production last night with the glass shattering felt like his input.
As regards the in-ring stuff, I thought Reigns and Cesaro had a very good match. I'm very impressed with Reigns as a wrestler given his size. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Undertaker didn't really start having his great matches until his early forties but Reigns is having them about ten years earlier. Doesn't surprise me they are pushing the guy so heavily.0 -
Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »I hated the Matt/Bray segment and actually had to mute it after ten seconds because it was too painful to endure.
I wouldn't blame Vince though. He wanted to use the character and as soon as Matt got the green light from Anthem the character was on screen ASAP using the old mannerisms. That tells me he wants it to do well otherwise he could have easily just held off on it and left Matt in midcard limbo. If there's money to be made, Vince will go for it.
I agree with the comment that last night had Kevin Dunn's paw prints all over it. I believe he's the one that wanted to tamper with Nakamura's entrance and all that over-production last night with the glass shattering felt like his input.
As regards the in-ring stuff, I thought Reigns and Cesaro had a very good match. I'm very impressed with Reigns as a wrestler given his size. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Undertaker didn't really start having his great matches until his early forties but Reigns is having them about ten years earlier. Doesn't surprise me they are pushing the guy so heavily.
I really don't see the parallels between Taker and Reigns at all, Reigns is a grand worker, but he lacks a lot of those extra bits that makes a match special, especially considering his signature move is the corner nap followed by the fast forward superman punch spot. He's great when he's in the ring with someone who can marshall him a bit, but a ring general he ain't.
Taker, especially as he got older, diversified his in ring style into that hybrid brawler, submission element. He also had more charisma than Reigns, and wasn't ever half as loathed as the guy.
I don't want to ****e on Roman too much, he's not as bad as the IWC wants him to be, but he is't that great either.0 -
Just watching raw now, what is with the glass breaking for Mid Card Matt, the breaking glass signals the arrival of only one man.
Oh look, heres Finn Balor tugging on his jacket collar looking ridiculous again and now he's wrestling curtis axel, lol0 -
chatticusfinch wrote: »I really don't see the parallels between Taker and Reigns at all, Reigns is a grand worker, but he lacks a lot of those extra bits that makes a match special, especially considering his signature move is the corner nap followed by the fast forward superman punch spot. He's great when he's in the ring with someone who can marshall him a bit, but a ring general he ain't.
Taker, especially as he got older, diversified his in ring style into that hybrid brawler, submission element. He also had more charisma than Reigns, and wasn't ever half as loathed as the guy.
I don't want to ****e on Roman too much, he's not as bad as the IWC wants him to be, but he is't that great either.
Reigns is 32 and is not yet the finished article but is already having very good matches for a big man. Undertaker didn't peak as far as being a good wrestler until his early forties and yet Reigns as a big guy is already having far better matches at a younger age.
You are correct that Taker diversified his style - later. At the age Reigns is now his matches were formulaic and largely dull. I would agree he had more charisma but his promo skills weren't that great. I've been watching back American Badass Taker from 2000 and was surprised how bad his promos were. From my memory he does end up doing better when he turns heel two years later.
Being loathed is an irrelevant point though. Fans loathe Reigns because they know he is the company's chosen guy, same with Cena.0 -
Reigns is far closer to 6 foot than 7 feet tall so even with inflated WWE heights I don't see how so many say he's a big man.
I enjoy his matches though although often he does a few too many superman punches when he could just do an uppercut which he throws well.0 -
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The Miztourage as much over than Finn.
Curtis Axel doing his best to turn into Joel Gertner.0 -
There was rumblings after last week's Raw saying that Matt Hardy was to be given full creative control over the angle. I take it after last night we can completely disregard that wishful thinking.
Go all in with it or just leave it be. I'm starting to think they are only going with it for Merch sales. Some half assed Woken shirts on the way, then they'll bury it.
So frustrating! Here's hoping they turn it around.0 -
Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »Reigns is 32 and is not yet the finished article but is already having very good matches for a big man. Undertaker didn't peak as far as being a good wrestler until his early forties and yet Reigns as a big guy is already having far better matches at a younger age.
You are correct that Taker diversified his style - later. At the age Reigns is now his matches were formulaic and largely dull. I would agree he had more charisma but his promo skills weren't that great. I've been watching back American Badass Taker from 2000 and was surprised how bad his promos were. From my memory he does end up doing better when he turns heel two years later.
Being loathed is an irrelevant point though. Fans loathe Reigns because they know he is the company's chosen guy, same with Cena.
On the better matches point at a younger age, that really is a case of the wrestling environment of the day. Reigns, had he been around in the late 80s/90s/ could well have had a Warrior style of in, superman punch, spear, 123, repeat. The fact Reigns is competing in an environment much different from Taker (in terms of workrate, the influence of cruiserweight and high spot wrestling, hybrid styles like Kevin Owens etc), isn't comparing like with like. If Taker was a young guy now, he'd probably be working a much quicker style.
With regards to Promo quality, I'll definitely give you Taker's Badass promos as being a bit meh, but I'd chalk that down to moving from not having to do much talking as an undead cowboy shaman, to having to be a flag waving biker. He later excelled as a heel, even killing the What chant dead in that youtube clip. Reigns, on the other hand, is a C level talker. Without even going into the sufferin' succotash bit, he's not the best guy on the stick by any metric. His talking won't ever sell a match, and the fact that the same few sound bites (Big Dog, His Yard etc) get repeated so often show that the Reigns character itself is very generic. This is a point to take away from Reigns, because he's active in a time where being mike capable is a big part of the job, which, to be fair to Taker, wasn't as essential for him when he had Paul Bearer doing his talking for him. Taker, though, as was shown in his heel run as Big Evil, was pretty good on the heel mic work, at least.
It also has to be said that any of Reigns top matches came about with him being the junior in the match (Cena, AJ Styles etc. I've yet to be convinced of him being a great match maker. Taker has a feel for the fabric of a match which Reigns doesn't, and I don't think will ever have, as he hasn't shown a meteoric rise in quality or anything. There is a blueprint for nearly every Reigns match where you can see the finish (sets up the spear, gets reversed, opponent goes up on the top rope or something, jumps and gets speared, etc "vintage Big dog" everyone goes home wondering why Cesaro still hasn't had. a run with the IC title)
He's grand, with the occasional great match, and that's not a slight on the guy at all. He's in a company where you have Aj Styles, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Finn Balor, Nakamura, even Cesaro, who would all put on a better quality of match than Reigns, despite the card position so I know who I'd rather watch in a main event program. I think Reigns would be better suited, both in terms of career quality and fan likeability, if he wasn't as featured as much in nearly every top billing feud on the calendar. It's totally obvious that he'll unseat Lesnar at Mania for his 4th Coronation in a row, and it's getting boring, to say the least.
The being loathed element is totally relevant, as you can draw a parallel with the last guy I can remember in a similar spot; Lex Luger. He was Vince's golden boy with a bus tour across the US, bodyslammed Yoko on the Intrepid, was involved in a controversial Rumble etc, but the fans wanted Bret. Where this differs is that Vince eventually dropped Lex for Bret in the long run. Now with regards to Roman, Vince is digging his heels in, pushing Roman at the expense of the rest of the product. A lot of Roman's spot, in a glib sense in down to this Vince golden boy spot. He's a guy who is a Triple Crown champ who got a World Title reign before he ever held a secondary singles title. He had no real feuds in the run up to his main event push, and he hasn't had many memorable moments that weren't tanked by booing, like the Rock's face when he had to endorse him. For his accolades, there hasn't been a massive amount of deserving in them, if that makes sense.
Being loathed by the fans, or an element of them does affect the quality of the push, because, like Lex, it can derail how you're perceived. Roman, had he not had the Vince backing and Daniel Bryan's injury, would probably have gone the way of Lex.0 -
chatticusfinch wrote: »On the better matches point at a younger age, that really is a case of the wrestling environment of the day. Reigns, had he been around in the late 80s/90s/ could well have had a Warrior style of in, superman punch, spear, 123, repeat. The fact Reigns is competing in an environment much different from Taker (in terms of workrate, the influence of cruiserweight and high spot wrestling, hybrid styles like Kevin Owens etc), isn't comparing like with like. If Taker was a young guy now, he'd probably be working a much quicker style.
With regards to Promo quality, I'll definitely give you Taker's Badass promos as being a bit meh, but I'd chalk that down to moving from not having to do much talking as an undead cowboy shaman, to having to be a flag waving biker. He later excelled as a heel, even killing the What chant dead in that youtube clip. Reigns, on the other hand, is a C level talker. Without even going into the sufferin' succotash bit, he's not the best guy on the stick by any metric. His talking won't ever sell a match, and the fact that the same few sound bites (Big Dog, His Yard etc) get repeated so often show that the Reigns character itself is very generic. This is a point to take away from Reigns, because he's active in a time where being mike capable is a big part of the job, which, to be fair to Taker, wasn't as essential for him when he had Paul Bearer doing his talking for him. Taker, though, as was shown in his heel run as Big Evil, was pretty good on the heel mic work, at least.
It also has to be said that any of Reigns top matches came about with him being the junior in the match (Cena, AJ Styles etc. I've yet to be convinced of him being a great match maker. Taker has a feel for the fabric of a match which Reigns doesn't, and I don't think will ever have, as he hasn't shown a meteoric rise in quality or anything. There is a blueprint for nearly every Reigns match where you can see the finish (sets up the spear, gets reversed, opponent goes up on the top rope or something, jumps and gets speared, etc "vintage Big dog" everyone goes home wondering why Cesaro still hasn't had. a run with the IC title)
He's grand, with the occasional great match, and that's not a slight on the guy at all. He's in a company where you have Aj Styles, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Finn Balor, Nakamura, even Cesaro, who would all put on a better quality of match than Reigns, despite the card position so I know who I'd rather watch in a main event program. I think Reigns would be better suited, both in terms of career quality and fan likeability, if he wasn't as featured as much in nearly every top billing feud on the calendar. It's totally obvious that he'll unseat Lesnar at Mania for his 4th Coronation in a row, and it's getting boring, to say the least.
The being loathed element is totally relevant, as you can draw a parallel with the last guy I can remember in a similar spot; Lex Luger. He was Vince's golden boy with a bus tour across the US, bodyslammed Yoko on the Intrepid, was involved in a controversial Rumble etc, but the fans wanted Bret. Where this differs is that Vince eventually dropped Lex for Bret in the long run. Now with regards to Roman, Vince is digging his heels in, pushing Roman at the expense of the rest of the product. A lot of Roman's spot, in a glib sense in down to this Vince golden boy spot. He's a guy who is a Triple Crown champ who got a World Title reign before he ever held a secondary singles title. He had no real feuds in the run up to his main event push, and he hasn't had many memorable moments that weren't tanked by booing, like the Rock's face when he had to endorse him. For his accolades, there hasn't been a massive amount of deserving in them, if that makes sense.
Being loathed by the fans, or an element of them does affect the quality of the push, because, like Lex, it can derail how you're perceived. Roman, had he not had the Vince backing and Daniel Bryan's injury, would probably have gone the way of Lex.
In fairness Undertaker was Reigns' age now in 1997 and the environment had moved on from the plodding 80s, early 90s stuff. He was even working with Shawn Michaels around that time and wound up with a 5 star match in the Hell in a Cell match so the point about about working with great talents can apply to him too (throw in Bret, Austin, Vader, Foley). I want to say that I'm not knocking Taker as a worker when I praise Reigns now, I just think a man of Reigns' size and stature putting on consistently good matches warrants more praise than it gets and I feel it's frustration at Reigns' character that stops people giving it.
With regards promos, I think we have to remember this is a heavily scripted era and the sort of off-the-cuff stuff that Taker was able to get away with is harder to do nowadays. You seem to agree with me that Taker as a heel did his best promo work and we have yet to see Reigns be given a chance in this department yet. I would say let's hold off on judgement for now, although I would have to concede Reigns' babyface promo work has been below par.
Regarding the Luger similarity, I have heard this comparison mentioned by others before and it is understandable in the sense that Luger was as you say at one time Vince's guy. So too was Diesel and I've heard a similar comaprison to him as well. But we are in a different era now in the sense that back then if your fanbase turned on a guy then that presented a risk with a big competitor over on a different channel to worry about. Those concerns haven't been there since WCW folded and the lesson of the Cena push - which I think is often forgotten - is that just because a section of the audience turns on a guy doesn't mean now that it's necessary to turn him. Reigns' merch continues to sell well (not Cena level but few are) and there have been signs in recent times that more women and kids are backing him, which is inevitable if he is presented strong. That's why I think the point about Luger and fan perception isn't relevant because when Cena was winning Rumbles he was getting booed out of the building too by the die-hards, and let's remember the Mania with HHH when he tapped him out and how fans reacted to that.
I'll throw out another name to compare Reigns to because I see parallels with this guys in a lot of ways: Batista. Both big guys who were clearly popular with management, came initially from factions, and then got the big mega push - though the Batista push of late '04 to '05 I'd say was one of the best they've done in the last twenty years whereas Reigns singles push was terribly handled. But with Batista it quickly became clear he was not going to be THE guy - that was Cena. And here's my point: when Batista turned heel it showcased a side of him that really surprised the die-hards that never thought much of him, particularly promo-wise. I feel a similar thing will happen with Reigns as he is said to be a much wittier guy backstage than on screen, and I think is much better in-ring than Dave ever was. (I also see a possibility of Reigns going down the movie star route in a few years as Dave did as he has the sort of look that Hollywood would love)
To sum up, what I'm saying is I see now why Vince and Hunter have been so high on the guy all along and I think whether they continue to push him as the "controversial reaction" babyface, a la Cena, or whether they turn him heel and allow him to express himself more, a la Batista, I think the guy is going to be a big plus for the company going forward and imo he deserves the strong positioning on the card he is getting. I say that because I personally see no other guy in the company, WWE or NXT or the Indy scene, of a similar age who strikes me as the next obvious breakout star.0 -
I think comparing the two is impossible. Far two many differences. I can see both sides of the argument, and to be honest they can't be weighted up fairly. Completely different time lines.
If Taker was pushed to the degree Roman was in his era, things could have worked out differently. Sure enough Taker got an early world title win and was protected to a certain point but it's a different era. The fans gradually learned to respect and fear the Undertaker, and when he turned face he got the push he deserved at the time in respect to the talent around the roster at the time.
Roman for his part has had a far harder audience to get over with compared to Taker. (Quicker build , slower pay off for one) Sure he has had the mega push, but he has held it all together pretty well to this point and as mentioned he has time on his side to improve. How would an Undertaker character fair debuting in this era? I don't have a clue.
Impossible to decipher for me!0 -
I think comparing the two is impossible. Far two many differences. I can see both sides of the argument, and to be honest they can't be weighted up fairly. Completely different time lines.
If Taker was pushed to the degree Roman was in his era, things could have worked out differently. Sure enough Taker got an early world title win and was protected to a certain point but it's a different era. The fans gradually learned to respect and fear the Undertaker, and when he turned face he got the push he deserved at the time in respect to the talent around the roster at the time.
Roman for his part has had a far harder audience to get over with compared to Taker. (Quicker build , slower pay off for one) Sure he has had the mega push, but he has held it all together pretty well to this point and as mentioned he has time on his side to improve. How would an Undertaker character fair debuting in this era? I don't have a clue.
Impossible to decipher for me!
I think that's a fair position.0 -
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote:With regards promos, I think we have to remember this is a heavily scripted era and the sort of off-the-cuff stuff that Taker was able to get away with is harder to do nowadays. You seem to agree with me that Taker as a heel did his best promo work and we have yet to see Reigns be given a chance in this department yet. I would say let's hold off on judgement for now, although I would have to concede Reigns' babyface promo work has been below par.
I don't even think it's a problem solely related to Reigns when it comes to mic work. WWE's current achilles heel is that they simply do not know how to book babyfaces any more. They're so far into a comfort zone in terms of market dominance they no longer feel the need to allow their stars to push the envelope and develop personalities that connect with the fans.
The result is these cookie cutter faces (most of whom are then damaged further by the 50/50 booking policy) who sound more like robots and rarely have a chance to connect on the mic.
That's the glaring difference and why so much of it is an unwatchable car crash these days... my take on it anyways.0 -
will u be watching the Xmas night/Stephens day morning edition of Raw which is a live episode (vince really doesnt want his stars to have a life) ???
dont really do much xmas night so prob will watch it myself, im expecting something major to happen as its a bigish deal0 -
Will be doing nothing myself but won't watch. It'll be an awful show full of Santa skits.0
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J. Marston wrote: »Will be doing nothing myself but won't watch. It'll be an awful show full of Santa skits.
Yep it’s going to be bad I doubt anything memorable will happen. It’s goung to be very missable.
I expect a street fight on 34th street tho.0
This discussion has been closed.
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