RAW Superthread

sky88

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Four live RAW's a month @3 hours.

Four live Smackdown's a month @2hours

Two live PPV's a month @3 hours.

That's 26 hours of live wrestling a month before over runs also pre & post shows it is way to much for me anyway especially when most of it is repetitive & written badly.

For me anyway the watching live raw/smackdown is always a rareity with work even if it was amazing.

Dont mind for ppvs as there will always be a good match or two at least

Neil3030

Nearing the end for me, in terms of WWE programming. The entire company now exists to tow a corporate party line and ultimately put the McMahon children over as decorated media personalities. The latter, presumably, to compensate for Daddy's years of neglect. How has no genuine competitor emerged to take them on?

Agent Coulson

sky88 wrote: »

For me anyway the watching live raw/smackdown is always a rareity with work even if it was amazing.

Dont mind for ppvs as there will always be a good match or two at least

I work nights and shifts so the time of night that it's live doesn't really bother me.

If I was to try and catch up the next day from recording it 26 hours a month of WWE programming is to much for me.

What does bother me though along with the bad writing etc is the ad breaks there must 45 minutes of ads in the 3 hour live RAW so just as they get momentum they cut to an ad break and lose it all.

jaykhunter

Neil3030 wrote: »

How has no genuine competitor emerged to take them on?

Here's what I've got:
- It's way easier to keep things chugging along than build an empire
- Running a wrestling company is way harder than it looks; it's running a large business. Paul Heyman is a creative genius but a poor businessman (or was, whilst running ECW)
- WWE have a stranglehold on the market
- WWE do a lot of things right (eg new hiring mindset; they hired Styles, Nakamura and practically cleaned out the indies - KO, Rollins, Cesaro, Joe etc)
- Every division in their company makes money (apart from WWE Studios)

Anything else?

Neil3030

jaykhunter wrote: »

Here's what I've got:
- It's way easier to keep things chugging along than build an empire
- Running a wrestling company is way harder than it looks; it's running a large business. Paul Heyman is a creative genius but a poor businessman (or was, whilst running ECW)
- WWE have a stranglehold on the market
- WWE do a lot of things right (eg new hiring mindset; they hired Styles, Nakamura and practically cleaned out the indies - KO, Rollins, Cesaro, Joe etc)
- Every division in their company makes money (apart from WWE Studios)

Anything else?

I take your points, but nothing jumps out to me as the, "ahhhh, that's why they are so dominant", point.

I just find it very difficult to understand how, at a time when networks are clamouring for live, episodic content to sell advertising, nobody has bolted together the correct talent, creative, finance and business acumen to at least give the awful WWE programming a run for its money.

beakerjoe

TV with a big Network and a big reconsible brand name. Thats the difference. They are the only game in town in that respect.

jaykhunter

Ya, brand name is everything. Of my points, I think #2 about it actually being really hard to create & run a wrestling company successfully would be the biggest. Who wants to take risks on a small company that is pretty much on the same level as porn? Even Vince has to deal with advertisers being embarrassed to be associated with pro rasslin', and he's King Shít!

jaykhunter

My business teacher said it's 6x easier to keep an existing customer than to get a new one; so in that respect, WWE have to drive fans away for them to want to check out the competition. Another point is WWE churn out so much content that people can't even keep up with WWE content, let alone want to dip a toe in new, unfamiliar content.

Take your favourite supermarket. How bad would their selection/prices have to be for you to go to a different store?

Neil3030

Advertisers have no scruples whatsoever, they will go where their target demographic is. WWE programming will never attract blue chip ads, i.e., for stock brokers, luxury vehicles or diamond jewelry (like, say, a golf tournament will), but they will attract ads for products aimed at lower income earners and kids.

When I watch WWE televised programming on the US feed, the typical ad break will feature:

Sonic
Pop-Eye's
Burger King
Pizza Hut
A debt consolidation company
Pop-Tarts
Wendy's
Quit smoking

One or two others that I'm likely forgetting. But the point is that you mostly dealing with big brands, with a specific demographic.

So I instantly call bull**** on any claim that advertisers are embarrassed to associate with WWE. Advertisers of certain products may deem it useless, but that's not the same thing.

beakerjoe

My opinion of raw continues to lower each week. After last weeks Raw (which was mostly poor IMO), The Goldberg promo was the best segment Raw has had in awhile, WWE failed to capitalise on it in anyway.

There was good segments, but nothing blow away or nothing that would tempt me into watching HITC live this sunday and Raw as a brand is further damaged in my perception.

The Womens scene needs work. Sasha and Charlotte segment was fine, with both Sasha and Flair coming off well but Foley ruined the segment.

And with this match, Their Feud is likely going to be over come Sunday and there is no depth in the division. Dana isnt ready for Sasha yet (she should still be in NXT), Emma seems to be getting repackaged into a gimmick from the mind of Johnny Ace, so shes not ready, Nia Jax has been missing the last couple of weeks and has probably lost any momentuim she has had in her absence and Creative have dropped the ball with the handling of Bayley since arriving on the MR.

The Bayley Dana segment did nothing for either girl.

Braun Strowman v Zayn was fine for what it was and probably had my attention more than it should have. They have done a decent job with Braun and I am interested on how he goes forward but I cant help but think creative will mess this up shortly somehow. Sami is strong enough to rebound from a defeat to Strowman.

Gallows and Anderson continue to lose and I continue to care even less about them. They have been mishandled so badlysince arriving. Enzo and Cass just seem to float about but their gimmick and Enzos mic work keeps them afloat.

New Day v Cesaro Sheamus is fine, but their is no heat in the feud at all. Sheamo and Cesaro's odd couple pairing is fine but the feud with New Day has zero heat since New day are faces. If they were going against ...say Gallows and Anderson, the feud would be much more interesting IMO.

Bo and Axel was fine, sad to hear WWE took Axel signs away from fans at ringside. Stupid move. Interested to see what hapens with Bo going forward.

The writing of TJP is so ****e. Video game based scripts do nothing but make him a one dimensuional character. Kendricks promo backstage was fine but his worries and fears meaning nothing since he will most likely still be around after HITC anyway.

Rich Swann continues to get over with me. Hes a breath of fresh air.

Brocks promo was a mess.

Firstly promos that depend on teh crowds reactions like that are teh worst. Last week it was sparkle crotch and it was so forced and this week it was Heyman and Goldberg. Whoever thought it was a good idea should be fired. Also Im sick of Heyman, Brock doesnt need him and his promo work is tiresome at thsi point.

Jericho/Owens/Rollins was awful. Now we should be losing our minds at a Seth v Owens program right? but Owens is a comedy heel character at the minute and Rollins is a face who acts like a scorned poiled brat. I feel nothing from this program and its proof that WWE can still turn gold into ****e.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Very excited to see what promo Paul Heyman comes up with tonight and what angle he goes with. I'm sensing he will warn Goldberg not to do the match for the sake of his family. Also keen to see if Brock says anything. I think a few lines would be useful.

What a disappointment!

I was looking forward to this all week and seeing what Paul Heyman's creative juices would come up with for this week's episode. If you told me before the show it would be the train wreck that it turned out to be I wouldn't have believed it.

But I was unaware of the fact that this show was in Brock's hometown - man that was a killer for this storyline and I got the sense that it threw Heyman off how vociferous these fans were in their support of Brock. 'Goldberg sucks' chant after that great segment last week? Damn, I didn't see that coming and I don't think Heyman did either.

But even allowing for the fact that the fans shat all over any effort to get Goldberg over as a babyface in Minnesota, I can't believe how underwhelming the material that Heyman came out with. All I got out of that segment was that Brock didn't like hearing people chant Goldberg (and that idea didn't work because about 30-40 per cent at most chanted for Goldberg and Brock was laughing at how beloved he was there which just killed the whole thing). But I've seen Heyman make gold out of much weaker feuds for Brock than this one which actually has a great story to it. Where were the dire warnings to Bill not to take the match and to think of his family? The storyline here practically wrote itself.

The only thing I can think is that Vince is so adamant that Goldberg won't be staying beyond this match that they made it clear to Heyman not to go too in-depth into the story of the match. I bet Heyman had some great ideas but they must have said, 'Look this is just to promote the 2K17 game, it's a one-and done situation, we don't need anything too elaborate.'

Really let down by that though after having such high hopes for it. I'm still keen on the match but this didn't add anything to it for me at all and I'm surprised by that.

J. Marston

That Lesnar/Heyman segment was tragic. He's a former WWE and UFC champion and he even played with the Vikings for a short time, you're not going to turn his home crowd against him. Just pure laziness from the writers/Heyman/both trying and failing miserably to get people to chant Goldberg.

Only other thing worth mentioning about this show is that Charlotte looked hot.

Lord TSC

I watched up to the Enzo segment early in the show, and then had to stop to do something....and I never went back. And now, at 4pm, I've realised....did I miss anything? Is there any part of the show that, having missed, means I won't understand what happened storyline wise before watching the PPV?

beakerjoe

Yer grand TSC, id watch Braun segment and maybe the Bo match.....that's at a push

jaykhunter

Neil3030 wrote: »

I instantly call bull**** on any claim that advertisers are embarrassed to associate with WWE. Advertisers of certain products may deem it useless, but that's not the same thing.

Well hold your bulls***! WWE's ad rates are substantially lower than other sports, which is part of the reason USA Network's renegotiated fee was a relatively small increase, whereas non-porn-level sports got a few times the previous deal. USA had nobody to bid against.

That said, Buger King, Pizza Hut etc are way bigger sponsors WWE have acquired since becoming PG. It's up from Stridex Pimple Cream and all that.

If you'll recall, part of TNA/Spike's deal falling apart was the abysmal ad revenue it brought in.

Anywoo it's a bit off the point (it's more difficult for pro-wrestling companies to start up/gain investors/TV deals than other sports) but I hope that's interesting and puts our favourite past-time in perspective.

Chain Smoker

Iirc, it came out that ufc were getting half the ad revenue other shows got on fx, and another outlet had previously reported that wwe were getting roughly 20% the ad revenues ufc were able to get.

I'm probably a bit off with the figures but the contrast was staggering

Ben Gadot

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What a disappointment!

I was looking forward to this all week and seeing what Paul Heyman's creative juices would come up with for this week's episode. If you told me before the show it would be the train wreck that it turned out to be I wouldn't have believed it.

But I was unaware of the fact that this show was in Brock's hometown - man that was a killer for this storyline and I got the sense that it threw Heyman off how vociferous these fans were in their support of Brock. 'Goldberg sucks' chant after that great segment last week? Damn, I didn't see that coming and I don't think Heyman did either.

But even allowing for the fact that the fans shat all over any effort to get Goldberg over as a babyface in Minnesota, I can't believe how underwhelming the material that Heyman came out with. All I got out of that segment was that Brock didn't like hearing people chant Goldberg (and that idea didn't work because about 30-40 per cent at most chanted for Goldberg and Brock was laughing at how beloved he was there which just killed the whole thing). But I've seen Heyman make gold out of much weaker feuds for Brock than this one which actually has a great story to it. Where were the dire warnings to Bill not to take the match and to think of his family? The storyline here practically wrote itself.

The only thing I can think is that Vince is so adamant that Goldberg won't be staying beyond this match that they made it clear to Heyman not to go too in-depth into the story of the match. I bet Heyman had some great ideas but they must have said, 'Look this is just to promote the 2K17 game, it's a one-and done situation, we don't need anything too elaborate.'

Really let down by that though after having such high hopes for it. I'm still keen on the match but this didn't add anything to it for me at all and I'm surprised by that.

Easy way around that is to not focus on the crowd for one week. Just cut a worked shoot on Goldberg and what he has left, with a short and sweet "I don't give a **** about your kids/superheroes" moment from Brock.

But I have a feeling Heyman and Brock were told in no uncertain terms that would not be allowed.

I swear to god if this ****ing feud is built on the crowd chanting Goldberg, and Goldberg referring to himself as a superhero for the kids without rebuttal from Heyman/Brock then it's a ****ing embarrassment. It needs an edge otherwise it be **** upon without mercy.

Lithium93_

According to Bryan Alvarez, 'Ol Vinnie Mac reportedly "blew a gasket" during Heyman & Lesnar's segment..

jaykhunter

Lithium93_ wrote: »

According to Bryan Alvarez, 'Ol Vinnie Mac reportedly "blew a gasket" during Heyman & Lesnar's segment..

It boggles the mind. Vince is the grandfather of modern wrestling, and has been actively in the business for literally over half a century. How would you expect anything besides massive cheers for the hometown boy that won them 2 NCAA championships, and played for the state's football team (Minnesota Vikings) ? Maybe it's forgetfulness or just plum stubbornness.

Brock Lesnar is their hometown star. And he'll also get cheered in Toronto (Survivor Series) because he now lives in Saskatchewan as is billed from Canada.

CastorTroy

beakerjoe wrote: »

Yer grand TSC, id watch Braun segment and maybe the Bo match.....that's at a push

Bet you never thought you'd ever choose those 2 as the standouts on an episode of Raw.

I know I shouldn't comment on her, but Dana does not look like a wrestler. Maybe it was just what she was wearing or bad angles but she looks like she needs to lose weight or get toned.
And hearing Mick speaking about Sasha and all she's accomplished just drove home even more how badly Bayley is being used. She was pretty much the one who had those matches with Sasha and she was the one who helped make the NXT women's division what it was/is. At times, I kinda think it would be better off if Sasha had been genuinely injured or if they hadn't rushed to bring Bayley up. Hopefully when Emma returns, she gets a few decent matches with Bayley to get her away from Dana, if Bayley doesn't go after the title.

Enzo and Cass were guys I used to enjoy watching and listening to but now I skip at lot of their entrance. Same with New Day, who I'm expecting to get sued some day by someone who was busted open by the sharp croner of their cereal boxes being thrown.

Seth Rollins is beginning to remind me of Roman Reigns now with the way he goes on. Expecting him to say "sufferin succotash" any moment

Lithium93_

jaykhunter wrote: »

It boggles the mind. Vince is the grandfather of modern wrestling, and has been actively in the business for literally over half a century. How would you expect anything besides massive cheers for the hometown boy that won them 2 NCAA championships, and played for the state's football team (Minnesota Vikings) ? Maybe it's forgetfulness or just plum stubbornness.

Brock Lesnar is their hometown star. And he'll also get cheered in Toronto (Survivor Series) because he now lives in Saskatchewan as is billed from Canada.

I'm going to go with Option #2 and Vince just being stubborn Vince, now if RAW were held anywhere else besides Minnesota, because let's face it, his own hometown crowd weren't going to boo him.. Which was quiet frankly a stupid move by those who put the segment together.. It's as you've alluded to above, going to be the same at Survivor Series, anyone who pays attention would've seen this coming before Goldberg came back and accepted the challenge last week.

jaykhunter

Ha ha, it's absolutely f**ked! Do you think fans like WWE? I mean we like wrestlers, feuds, matches, promos, but do we like WWE itself? It feels like WWE hate it's fans (stubbornness/forcing things like Seth returning as heel despite crowd reaction), and conversely fans are very vocal about disapproval/improving the show.

Jodotman

I think thats one of the worst Raws I've ever seen. 0 out of 10. I thought it was a new era or something? Its meant to be Hell in a Cell Sunday isn't it?
Jericho's list, how cringeworthy was that, the new day etc.

WWE don't have any storylines to build feuds anymore.

Surely they could have had Rollins on Owens fight before Sunday or do a good promo. Same with new day cesaro etc.

Believe in BO - How about f off.

Rusev Roman storyline how bad

CSF

Reportedly they were confiscating Curtis Axel signs in the crowd. Not offensive ones or anything but apparently the crowd is not allowed like those who the WWE have not told them to like, even in their own hometown.

Neil3030

jaykhunter wrote: »

Well hold your bulls***! WWE's ad rates are substantially lower than other sports, which is part of the reason USA Network's renegotiated fee was a relatively small increase, whereas non-porn-level sports got a few times the previous deal. USA had nobody to bid against.

That said, Buger King, Pizza Hut etc are way bigger sponsors WWE have acquired since becoming PG. It's up from Stridex Pimple Cream and all that.

If you'll recall, part of TNA/Spike's deal falling apart was the abysmal ad revenue it brought in.

Anywoo it's a bit off the point (it's more difficult for pro-wrestling companies to start up/gain investors/TV deals than other sports) but I hope that's interesting and puts our favourite past-time in perspective.

Well that certainly makes sense. And just to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of bull****ting or anything, I just find the claim that sponsors are 'embarrassed' with WWE to be the sort of BS that the Vinces or Kevin Dunns of this world would spout when justifying moving the product away from "Wrasslin" and toward "Sports Entertainment". Sponsors just don't make money off it. The net result is the same, just different motivations.

ERG89

Lithium93_ wrote: »

According to Bryan Alvarez, 'Ol Vinnie Mac reportedly "blew a gasket" during Heyman & Lesnar's segment..

Least surprising revelation ever.
Awful show as it usually is. Arm wrestling match, contract signing, Foley cutting a forced passionate promo (sigh) were all overly familiar. Kendrick losing & asking his opponent to lose before his title match Sunday, the bizarre Heyman segment which he handled badly too tbh, Brock did well he stood there without wondering why he is paid to turn up the odd night & look menacing. Anderson losing to Enzo in about 2 minutes & a main event which they built up with a search for a list.....good baby face promo from Rusev, shame he's the heel though.
There is a PPV Sunday if anyone wants to watch more of this meaningless content from WWE.

CastorTroy

Being all mature I laughed at how Rusev pronounced it as "going into the cell ass champion".

Lithium93_

Jodotman wrote: »

I think thats one of the worst Raws I've ever seen. 0 out of 10. I thought it was a new era or something? Its meant to be Hell in a Cell Sunday isn't it?
Jericho's list, how cringeworthy was that, the new day etc.

WWE don't have any storylines to build feuds anymore.

Surely they could have had Rollins on Owens fight before Sunday or do a good promo. Same with new day cesaro etc.

Believe in BO - How about f off.

Rusev Roman storyline how bad

:pac:

Jericho's been the best thing about the show... And that's saying a lot.

The White Feather

I only just watched Raw now and that really was a terrible show.

The only part I enjoyed was the opening segment about the list of Jericho.I was loving it until I realised it was just to set up the main event match when Rollins came out. I thought it was going to be him every week saying where is it until KO admits he took it and they begin their feud. Excitement popped like a balloon when it was just to have a match later on. No story progression for future episodes at all.

Gallows and Anderson are pathetic jobbers at this stage. I would still have time for Enzo and Cass but they are not really doing anything.

New Day jumped the shark a while back and I just don't take them seriously anymore. Way too many comedy segments for them.

I still like Ceasro and Sheamus and at least they have the we don't get along tag team going. Anything is better than nothing.

I felt really sorry for Bayley. Reduced to Arm wrestling with Dana. Those kind of segments do not work anymore. Very 80's thinking presumably from Vince.Think about it. If it was two massive guys like Brock and Goldberg were arm wrestling we would all say what a waste. Get them wrestling. Same for the women.

I liked Curtis Axel's promo. He and Bo are doing their best with the litle they get.

It's funny as I am a huge wrestling fan but didn't watch any of the Cruiser-weight matches. Just was busy and never got around to it. So I have no idea who they are. Don't know any of their personalities except Kendrick so they all seem like white noise (not Sheamus!) Throwing them in a match every week does nothing for them and me!

I might be the only one who thinks this here on boards but I am not really interested in seeing Sasha and Charlotte in Hell in the Cell.They shouldn't be main eventing anything either. Yes near the top but not the main event.

Sasha always looked to me as too small.I read that she was trying to bulk up so that's a good thing.It's strange as AJ was tiny but her crazy gimmick made her believable somehow.We all know that tiny girl who was a looper! Sasha has the best women's gimmick but she needs to be a heel. Face doesn't work imo.

Charlotte is very athletic but I don't like her on the mic.She seems ok at everything but nothing stands out to me.The elephant in the room about Charlotte and Sasha is that they are not good looking so it's hard for them to be a face.This is why Emma is being repackaged.Emma could be the b*tch or good looking face.Actual Wrestling might be her downfall.

Women could definitely headline but I think they have bet on the wrong duo in Sasha and Charlotte.We need clear heels and faces. Bayley as everyone knows, is the perfect face. I would have put her up against Sasha as champ with Charlotte in Sasha's corner. Then do a mean girls act before it for weeks.Bayley has them both to overcome and then when we split Sasha and Charlotte a ready made feud begins. I think this might have happened in NXT already but only the hardcore have already seen it.

As for the Brock segment, I thought Heyman tried his best to get the crowd to hate Lesnar but that was never going to happen. Really stupid bringing him back out in his hometown. Of course he will get cheered.Kevin Nash says it best here

https://twitter.com/RealKevinNash/status/790824418616410112

All in all a mess of a Raw, nothing furthered storyline wise. I didn't even realise that a PPV was this sunday!!

demanufactured

Nash is spot on.