SFC Final Replay - Dublin v Mayo Sat 1st October *Read Mod Note Post #1*

The Talking Bread

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As recent history shows, there is a massive difference between reaching a final and actually winning one. You need at least a 10% step up in performance and also for everything to go your way as well as not losing your head and conceding soft goals, frees, yellow cards and red cards, which has been a regular occurrence with this Mayo team.

As the previous poster said, you can't be well capable of winning something if you don't actually do it. You can't have potential forever. Potential is meaningless without winning something.

All I saw in the first game was a Mayo team incapable of closing it out, conceding soft goals and so on. For me it was same old Mayo of the last 5 or 6 years. If they repeat that in the replay they will get beaten out the gate.

Potential and winning are two completely different paradigms. Potential means ability

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this team has ability to beat that Dublin team.
Winning means the factual circumstances when you win.

My point is Mayo are well able to beat Dublin, they showed that Sunday. Blame the weather, blame a few missed frees on Rock's part.
But you would swear the way people are going on everything went Mayos way and nothing went Dublins way.

Would you ever consider that Dublin's underperforming was a result of Mayo's approach to the game, an approach that they could easily replicate again and not be the victim of a couple of mistakes in their FB line for two, dress it up as you like, unlucky on general goals.

Dublin arent the only team that has room to improve next week. Mayo have plenty to improve on. AOS is a better player than he was Sunday, likewise Seamie, and Mcloughlin. And then there is Diarmuid O Connor.

A drier day will also suit them as well as Dublin. Mayo don't have paddle feet or flippers. No team performs to their capability in the rain.


I know well the facts are there that Mayo still haven't got over the line but to qualify that as its a foregone conclusion they aren't able to do so..... come on!

seligehgit

The Talking Bread wrote: »

a few of those players only joined up in the last 5 or 6 years. I am not sure, but I don't think any of them played the whole 60 years or even the 25 years.

Why people constantly compare this Mayo team as a cliche prototype of teams like the Mayo team 20 years ago and beyond, its ridiculous! Just because they wear the same jersey.

You honestly think this Mayo team aren't well able to win Saturday week?

The bottom line is we're going to have win on Saturday week to prove the naysayers wrong.Their argument is valid.

martyos121

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We are going around in circles here. All I will say is this Mayo team have been average all year and were average in the drawn game too. They were helped by a Dublin side who had a shocker, by far and away the worst performance of the Gavin era. And yet Mayo still couldn't beat them. This does not bode well for the replay. Its no use saying Mayo really put it up to them or Mayo played brilliantly and are well able of beating Dublin. They just about scraped a draw against a Dublin team having an off day. If they can muster another draw or win the next day, then I will take my hat off to Mayo. But they have won nothing yet. I can't see anything other than a Dublin victory though.

And only Dublin had an off day? We gifted two goals on a silver platter to the Dubs and a five point lead heading into half time, to a team who is far stronger in the second half usually as well. They still couldn't finish us off. To say it doesn't bode well for the replay is utter nonsense, just like Dublin likely won't be as bad on Saturday week, there's the exact same chance we won't score two OGs. There's never much between the two sides and I can say with confidence there won't be in 10 days time either.

The Talking Bread

Anyway, not having a go, and don't want to start a tit for tat or derail the thread as I know you can't change peoples opinion on Boards!! In fact you convince them more they are right the more you debate with them! It is an Irish male stubborn "but still" thing!

But this started out with the "bonus territory" statement which just stuck out like a sore thumb to me as something which I think any of that squad would laugh at.

martyos121

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Anyway, not having a go, and don't want to start a tit for tat or derail the thread as I know you can't change peoples opinion on Boards!! In fact you convince them more they are right the more you debate with them! It is an Irish male stubborn "but still" thing!

But this started out with the "bonus territory" statement which just stuck out like a sore thumb to me as something which I think any of that squad would laugh at.

You've every right to call someone out on a statement like that, and what followed. Sure I haven't posted here since before the final but I couldn't resist chipping in as well. Stupid posts like those should be put to the sword.

corny

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well after losing to an average Galway team in the Connacht championship, going on to reach an AI final and bringing it to a replay with a last gasp equalising point would be considered bonus territory in anyone's book. It would be great if they won, but in the context of poor and average performances all year, you have to be realistic.

Dublin were odds on to win the first game, but the weather evened things up. They are still odds on to win the replay.

Its more accurate to say Mayo handled the conditions better. Credit where its due. Dublin had 12 wides, Mayo had 6 i think. Thats a great conversion rate in any game let alone a final in those conditions.

ProudDUB

I would not have used the term bonus territory, per se. But Mayo did not enter the knock out stages of the AI championship, in the same barnstorming fashion that they did in previous years. They did not win their province. Added to the all the managerial drama, you could say that any team that survives all that and still makes it to an All Ireland final, is in bonus territory. Any county would be. If someone has their Mayo hat on, I can see how the term 'bonus territory' would rankle, especially when you consider how close they have come in previous years. But a neutral, taking this year just on its own merits, could probably see why the term was used.

corny

martyos121 wrote: »

And only Dublin had an off day? We gifted two goals on a silver platter to the Dubs and a five point lead heading into half time, to a team who is far stronger in the second half usually as well. They still couldn't finish us off. To say it doesn't bode well for the replay is utter nonsense, just like Dublin likely won't be as bad on Saturday week, there's the exact same chance we won't score two OGs. There's never much between the two sides and I can say with confidence there won't be in 10 days time either.

A regular occurrence it seems. In the last 4 championship games Mayo have conceded 9 goals against Dublin. Thats eye watering stuff and on the evidence of Sunday Rochford has done nothing to address this. Or he can't address it.

Flippantly saying we won't give up two og's next day is ignoring reality. You're giving up goal chances to beat the band and Dublin have a proven history of exploiting that.

I see nothing to suggest thats gonna change either. If anything its the one area Dublin will drill relentlessly over the next couple of weeks because in general play little separates the teams.

martyos121

ProudDUB wrote: »

I would not have used the term bonus territory, per se. But Mayo did not enter the knock out stages of the AI championship, in the same barnstorming fashion that they did in previous years. They did not win their province. Added to the all the managerial drama, you could say that any team that survives all that and still makes it to an All Ireland final, is in bonus territory. Any county would be. If someone has their Mayo hat on, I can see how the term 'bonus territory' would rankle, especially when you consider how close they have come in previous years. But a neutral, taking this year just on its own merits, could probably see why the term was used.

I still don't see how anyone could use it, but that's just me. No team in the country goes into an AI campaign with the mindset "Let's make it to ___ and anything past that is bonus territory". No team in the country writes off their chances after being knocked out of ther provincial championship, they just go again and try to keep things on track and take their summer as far as they possibly can. It's one thing to say it about the likes of Roscommon or Clare but to say it about us, a team that's reached the semi finals for the last 6 years in a row, including three finals, isn't really valid.

We're a big team, albeit one that has a tendency to fall at the final hurdle but every year we enter the championship with the goal of bringing Sam Maguire over here to Mayo and anything less than that is not celebrated. Not a go at you or the one who made the "bonus territory" post either btw, just an assessment of where we are as a team and what the players and fans strive for every single year.

HamsterFace

Dublin really bottled it the last day. Gifted two goals and were three points up going in to injury time.

Totally choked.

I wonder will they be a lot better the next day?

martyos121

corny wrote: »

A regular occurrence it seems. In the last 4 championship games Mayo have conceded 9 goals against Dublin. Thats eye watering stuff and on the evidence of Sunday Rochford has done nothing to address this. Or he can't address it.

Flippantly saying we won't give up two og's next day is ignoring reality. You're giving up goal chances to beat the band and Dublin have a proven history of exploiting that.

I see nothing to suggest thats gonna change either. If anything its the one area Dublin will drill relentlessly over the next couple of weeks because in general play little separates the teams.

Yeah we gave up goal chances, but Dublin players didn't put them into the net. Of course if Rock doesn't drop that ball he gets a shot away and maybe scores it himself, but the key is that he didn't. Just like the chance before wasn't taken. We did enough to stop the first one and were so unlucky to see it tapped in the way it was. Rock dropped the second and it was knocked in by Boyler, once again, cruelly unlucky. They had other goal chances too that weren't taken. We also had a couple and failed to take both, but there wasn't an awful stroke of luck for us to see a Dublin leg deflect them in.

My point is that on Sunday we actually did enough to stop them scoring their goal chances, but cruel bad luck came into play and saw two go in anyway. It's hugely unlikely they'll have that luck the next day, and my other point was that it's just as unlikely as Dublin playing as awful as they did. I never once said we don't or won't give up goal opportunities, but goalkeepers are there for more than kicking the ball out and Clarke got down well for a couple of good saves the last day, all we can do in Mayo is put our faith in him to stop those chances when the defence is beaten. I don't think there was much wrong with saying the two own goals cost us and aren't likely to happen again in the manner they went in.

Muff Richardson

HamsterFace wrote: »

Dublin really bottled it the last day. Gifted two goals and were three points up going in to injury time.

Totally choked.

I wonder will they be a lot better the next day?

Injury time... giving up three points in 7 minutes, while poor, it is not exactly bottling it.

I was at the game, I have absolutely no idea where the 7 minutes came from and there has been little talk of this. To put things into perspective 7 minutes is a fifth of a half, if it isn't too sac religious of a comparison that is the equivalent of adding on 9 minutes in a soccer match. Where that 7 minutes came from is a mystery

Godge

corny wrote: »

A regular occurrence it seems. In the last 4 championship games Mayo have conceded 9 goals against Dublin. Thats eye watering stuff and on the evidence of Sunday Rochford has done nothing to address this. Or he can't address it.

Flippantly saying we won't give up two og's next day is ignoring reality. You're giving up goal chances to beat the band and Dublin have a proven history of exploiting that.

I see nothing to suggest thats gonna change either. If anything its the one area Dublin will drill relentlessly over the next couple of weeks because in general play little separates the teams.

I don't buy the narrative that Mayo handed two goals to Dublin on a plate.

If you look at the two goals again, you see that two superb Diarmuid Connolly passes (where was Lee Keegan?) caused panic in the Mayo defence and the pressure from the Dublin forwards led to the own goal mistakes.

km79

Godge wrote: »

I don't buy the narrative that Mayo handed two goals to Dublin on a plate.

If you look at the two goals again, you see that two superb Diarmuid Connolly passes (where was Lee Keegan?) caused panic in the Mayo defence and the pressure from the Dublin forwards led to the own goal mistakes.

Not even Lee Keegan can mark a man taking a free

Godge

HamsterFace wrote: »

Dublin really bottled it the last day. Gifted two goals and were three points up going in to injury time.

Totally choked.

I wonder will they be a lot better the next day?

Did Dublin bottle it?

Or did they take Mayo for granted?

If the latter, it won't happen again.

Godge

km79 wrote: »

Not even Lee Keegan can mark a man taking a free

Only for the second one, nowhere for the first one.

Connolly's performance was much better on a second look, he was hugely involved in most of Dublin's scores. I think Lee was reduced to dragging him into a conflict in the second half because Connolly was doing so well in general play. Granted, a lot of what he created wasn't turned into scores by bad misses, but he didn't have as bad a game as many people thought.

corny

Muff Richardson wrote: »

Injury time... giving up three points in 7 minutes, while poor, it is not exactly bottling it.

I was at the game, I have absolutely no idea where the 7 minutes came from and there has been little talk of this. To put things into perspective 7 minutes is a fifth of a half, if it isn't too sac religious of a comparison that is the equivalent of adding on 9 minutes in a soccer match. Where that 7 minutes came from is a mystery

Its 20 seconds a sub. 10 subs i counted so 3 mins 20. Injury to Evan Regan happened in the 77th minute so that doesn't count. That was the only injury. The other 4 minutes i have no idea where he got them from. Booking players maybe?

PARlance

Godge wrote: »

If you look at the two goals again, you see that two superb Diarmuid Connolly passes (where was Lee Keegan?) caused panic in the Mayo defence and the pressure from the Dublin forwards led to the own goal mistakes.

You might have a look at those again.
MDMA to Fenton to Brogan to OG.
Connolly free kick to Rock to OG.

The Talking Bread

Godge wrote: »

Did Dublin bottle it?

Or did they take Mayo for granted?

If the latter, it won't happen again.

or........................maybe, just maybe, Mayo got their tactics right and figured out a way to take on this Dublin team. They barely afforded them any space and attacked aggressively and through the middle.

I suppose that approach was for the day that was in it, sure why would they be bothered trying it again. It will never work...........

corny

Godge wrote: »

I don't buy the narrative that Mayo handed two goals to Dublin on a plate.

If you look at the two goals again, you see that two superb Diarmuid Connolly passes (where was Lee Keegan?) caused panic in the Mayo defence and the pressure from the Dublin forwards led to the own goal mistakes.

Off contributing in some undetectable manner elsewhere!

The Talking Bread

corny wrote: »

Its 20 seconds a sub. 10 subs i counted so 3 mins 20. Injury to Evan Regan happened in the 77th minute so that doesn't count. That was the only injury. The other 4 minutes i have no idea where he got them from. Booking players maybe?

Rock took almost a minute on a free at one stage. fell off the divit he put it over (against the rules) and he went up and placed it again. All free kicks were slowed down, as were the majority of kick outs.

I'll admit I was surprised with the 7 minutes but I would be confident that it was logically came up with. Be interesting to see the second half again actually, so good excuse to analyse that.

corny

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Rock took almost a minute on a free at one stage. fell off the divit he put it over (against the rules) and he went up and placed it again. All free kicks were slowed down, as were the majority of kick outs.

I'll admit I was surprised with the 7 minutes but I would be confident that it was logically came up with. Be interesting to see the second half again actually, so good excuse to analyse that.

Thats part of play isn't it. Cillian O'Connor famously took the same time to knock over his free in the 2013 final. Counted then.

The Talking Bread

corny wrote: »

Thats part of play isn't it. Cillian O'Connor famously took the same time to knock over his free in the 2013 final. Counted then.

I amn't having a go at Rock, calling him some villainous creature!! I am just stating why the injury time would have been established.
Refs will always account for slow free taking play.
Ball is dead when a free kick is being taken

martyos121

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I amn't having a go at Rock, calling him some villainous creature!! I am just stating why the injury time would have been established.
Refs will always account for slow free taking play.
Ball is dead when a free kick is being taken

Ref pointed at his watch to the Mayo players too and made it clear he was adding time on for that, I'd say he tacked on a minute alone just to make a point of that, whether he was right or not in doing it.

It's funny because someone was on here before the final giving out about Cillian taking ages for a free in 2013, and singing the praises of Dean Rock in every possible way. :pac:

PARlance

corny wrote: »

Its 20 seconds a sub. 10 subs i counted so 3 mins 20. Injury to Evan Regan happened in the 77th minute so that doesn't count. That was the only injury. The other 4 minutes i have no idea where he got them from. Booking players maybe?

When Rock was kicking a 45 in the second half he took a fair bit of time over it, went back and replaced it. Now it didn't take 3 mins 40 but one of our players whose surname is O'Connor but not Cillian remonstrated with Lane.... was actually looking for a hop ball Anyway, Lane indicated he had stopped the watch, if he was stopping it for things like that then you could get to 7 minutes.... but it's a stretch, I couldn't believe it myself.

corny

PARlance wrote: »

When Rock was kicking a 45 in the second half he took a fair bit of time over it, went back and replaced it. Now it didn't take 3 mins 40 but one of our players whose surname is O'Connor but not Cillian remonstrated with Lane.... was actually looking for a hop ball Anyway, Lane indicated he had stopped the watch, if he was stopping it for things like that then you could get to 7 minutes.... but it's a stretch, I couldn't believe it myself.

There were just as many frees, if not more, in the first half though and he only added 2 minutes.

TCDStudent1

corny wrote: »

There were just as many frees, if not more, in the first half though and he only added 2 minutes.

But no subs. well just the black card 1 from what I recall

ProudDUB

martyos121 wrote: »

I still don't see how anyone could use it, but that's just me. No team in the country goes into an AI campaign with the mindset "Let's make it to ___ and anything past that is bonus territory". No team in the country writes off their chances after being knocked out of ther provincial championship, they just go again and try to keep things on track and take their summer as far as they possibly can. It's one thing to say it about the likes of Roscommon or Clare but to say it about us, a team that's reached the semi finals for the last 6 years in a row, including three finals, isn't really valid.

We're a big team, albeit one that has a tendency to fall at the final hurdle but every year we enter the championship with the goal of bringing Sam Maguire over here to Mayo and anything less than that is not celebrated. Not a go at you or the one who made the "bonus territory" post either btw, just an assessment of where we are as a team and what the players and fans strive for every single year.

Did Aidan O'Shea not give an interview, where he spoke about not expecting to be in an AI final, when they were examining the wreckage of the loss to Galway? There was so much stuff about him in the media, leading up to the AI final, I am struggling to remember where I read/saw/heard it and the exact words he used. But I'm sure if either one of us spent 5 minutes on Google, we could find it.

We can argue all day, about the correct phraseology....exceeding expectations, bonus territory, proving everyone wrong etc etc....but when Aidan O'Shea himself, is talking about it, well.....

I mean seriously....when was the last time that a county that changed managers at the beginning of the year & did not make it to their county final, never mind win it, made it to an All Ireland final?

Answers on a post card !

The Talking Bread

Aidan O Shea never said anything like that. You are completely misinterpreting his tone in that interview. He was talking about the challenge ahead of them and accepting the defeat and respecting the qualifiers. It was just one of those cliche laden press interviews that generally mean nothing. I am pretty sure a player like O Shea who has been the epicentre of this Mayo team and endured all those close heartbreaks will have no other goal than to win an All Ireland and anything less for him again will mean nothing.

Their loss in the Galway game is not the standard Mayo are and it means nothing now.

And to answer your question, without the postcard......................Down were the last team. in 2010.......

Also Kerry won an All Ireland in 09 having been knocked out in a Munster semi final, played Cork in both matches and the result between the games was a 12 point turnaround, Kerry losing by 8 points in Munster semi and then beating tham by 4 points in the final. . Not saying it means anything but equally at this stage of the year Mayo's loss to Galway means nothing now.

aidan24326

Godge wrote: »

Did Dublin bottle it?

Or did they take Mayo for granted?

If the latter, it won't happen again.

There is no possibility at all that Dublin took Mayo for granted. Mayo should have beaten the Dubs last year and would have done had Lee Keegan converted that chance into the hill. Complacency was never going to be an issue.

It's set up for a fascinating replay, personally I can't see Mayo changing things too much but Dublin will definitely need to re-think their gameplan especially in attack.