5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

I am simply commenting on what happened on the last night the family were together. Don't know what went on before. There is a lot known locally about what happened in the house.

What went on that night was enough for me to base my opinion on Alan being a cruel evil bastard. I know enough to make that judgement.

I sincerely hope then that you never get picked for jury duty on a serious case.
You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.
None whatsoever.
You made a snap judgement when the news broke and your determined to be proved right.
Your not really interested in justice or closure for 2 extended families, friends colleagues and an entire village, you just want the facts to fit your theory.

Zubeneschamali

infogiver wrote: »

You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

infogiver

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The inquest will only give the verdict as to cause of death.

It might throw up some information for the jury members and other interested parties, it might not.

My guess is unlawful killing for Clodagh and the boys, and suicide for yer man.

There will be evidence given by witnesses and experts which may explain ( and maybe/maybe not excuse) what happened.
The McEhill inquest came to a conclusion as to why.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I sincerely hope then that you never get picked for jury duty on a serious case.
You've no interest in hearing actual evidence, medical histories, witness accounts, testimonies from close family and friends etc. at all.
None whatsoever.
You made a snap judgement when the news broke and your determined to be proved right.
Your not really interested in justice or closure for 2 extended families, friends colleagues and an entire village, you just want the facts to fit your theory.

So there were no injuries on the victims then? No stab wounds, no butchery, no notes left, nothing??
You really need to get a grip of yourself and stop embarrassing yourself.

infogiver

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

I'm not saying there is or isn't evidence of anything at all.
Because the inquest has yet to take place.
I cannot understand your lack of patience in these matters.
If your not directly affected by this tragedy then why can you not have some respect and stop pointlessly speculating until the investigation is completed and the evidence presented for a jury to consider?

HellSquirrel

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So you are saying that there is no evidence of domestic violence?

The fatal hatchet and knife wounds don't count as domestic violence because?

They absolutely do, of course. No, the question is not whether an act of domestic violence killed them, the question was is there evidence that there was an ongoing issue with domestic violence that ended up with this, rather than, say, Hawe having a mental break and this being utterly unexpected beforehand.

No-one's denying that he murdered them and it was a horrendous act. When people are talking about domestic abuse though, it's more a question of was this going on for a long time and is this horrific outcome something that could have been seen coming. Conversely and taking the original commentry about mental health and something being wrong there, was there evidence for that and was -that- visible before it all came to its awful conclusion.

No-one's denying that a man viciously and brutally murdered a woman and three children, the wife and children he should have loved and cherished above all else. The questions are why and how can something like this be prevented from happening again.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

I know that. Up in the Omagh area.

In post 2008 you said:

There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.

People trying to make a man who was into under-age girls sound like a normal decent person?! Nonsense!

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

In post 2008 you said:


People trying to make a man who was into under-age girls sound like a normal decent person?! Nonsense!

I agree with you.
BUT look at them all defending Hawe and looking for ways to alleviate his guilt. He was a bad git. His poor wife and kids. My God I still think of their last moments. Awful.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with you.
BUT look at them all defending Hawe and looking for ways to alleviate his guilt. He was a bad git. His poor wife and kids. My God I still think of their last moments. Awful.

They weren't - they were simply talking about what they knew of him; there is a difference. They were struggling to comprehend his actions.

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

They weren't - they were simply talking about what they knew of him; there is a difference. They were struggling to comprehend his actions.

For my part I don't care what he was suffering with or whether he was insane or not.
He brutally murdered his wife and children.
There are loads of insane people who did not resort to that and in such a violent manner. The fact that he left notes warning people not to proceed into the house but to inform the Garda proves to me how calculating he was.

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

So there were no injuries on the victims then? No stab wounds, no butchery, no notes left, nothing??
You really need to get a grip of yourself and stop embarrassing yourself.

The only embarrassment on here is you and your ilk practically frothing at the mouth with frustration that you must wait so long before you can damn a dead man and his extended family to hell and back.
And to what end? What is achieved by your incontinent pointless rhetoric? What benefit to the bereaved? Absolutely none of course, except for you to say that you were proved right.
Have you sent a letter of condolence to the dead woman's mother?
Have you made a donation to Women's Aid?
I bet you haven't.
You'd like to dig his corpse up and kick him around but decent society won't let you. I'm grateful that the decent majority don't allow you to hurt the bereaved with your lynch mob mentality reaction, that your only allowed to post here, anonymously of course, where hopefully no one affected by this tragedy can read this rubbish.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

The only embarrassment on here is you and your ilk practically frothing at the mouth with frustration that you must wait so long before you can damn a dead man and his extended family to hell and back.
And to what end? What is achieved by your incontinent pointless rhetoric? What benefit to the bereaved? Absolutely none of course, except for you to say that you were proved right.
Have you sent a letter of condolence to the dead woman's mother?
Have you made a donation to Women's Aid?
I bet you haven't.
You'd like to dig his corpse up and kick him around but decent society won't let you. I'm grateful that the decent majority don't allow you to hurt the bereaved with your lynch mob mentality reaction, that your only allowed to post here, anonymously of course, where hopefully no one affected by this tragedy can read this rubbish.

All those things he managed to achieve on his own.
He murdered his wife and family alone. No help sought at all. He did it on his own.
You, however, seem to be trying to get him canonised.


I am a big supporter of Womans Aid and other deserving charities.

infogiver

tayto lover wrote: »

All those things he managed to achieve on his own.
He murdered his wife and family alone. No help sought at all. He did it on his own.
You, however, seem to be trying to get him canonised.


I am a big supporter of Womans Aid and other deserving charities.

You have zero proof or evidence of any of your allegations.
I have expressed no opinion on the character of Alan Hawe.
Do you know why?
Because, like you, I know absolutely nothing about him, or what happened, or why.
Why don't you calm yourself down and stop your pointless rampage until we hear from experts?

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

You have zero proof or evidence of any of your allegations.
I have expressed no opinion on the character of Alan Hawe.
Do you know why?
Because, like you, I know absolutely nothing about him, or what happened, or why.
Why don't you calm yourself down and stop your pointless rampage until we hear from experts?

The proof is - there were 4 people stabbed to death.One suicide - Alan Hawe.
The police are not looking for anyone else.

Now if the police are satisfied with the above then there is only one conclusion - he killed the others and then himself.

Why we don't know but this is irrelevant to me. He committed the brutal murders of his own wife and children.

An inquest will only concern itself with the cause of death. It's not a trial.

HellSquirrel

tayto lover wrote: »

Why we don't know but this is irrelevant to me. He committed the brutal murders of his own wife and children.

Maybe it should be relevant though. It is too late for Clodagh, Ryan, Niall and Liam. They were murdered by a man who should have been willing to place his own life on the line to protect them - as there is evidence that Clodagh was for the children. Whether Alan Hawe is left where he is or whether his head is placed on a spike will not change that. I wish it could, but it can't.

But they deserve to have their story known. They deserve it to be known if they were suffering for years or if they were watching their father descend into madness. Personally, from what bits I've read and heard, I do believe he was a bully and perhaps abusive. I don't know that, but sadly, statistically, familial murders are more likely to be domestic abuse.

And if the true story coming out means that other women and children (or fathers and children) can understand what the signs are and get out before things come to such an awful head as this, maybe lives can be saved.

Both of those things are reasons why the why is relevant. Merely turning the air blue about his evil may be satisfying for a casual reader about the case, but it doesn't solve anything and will help no-one. Don't get me wrong, I called the guy that murdered his family by setting the house on fire when his wife was about to leave him a son of a bitch. I get the urge. But I would never stand in the way of understanding why something happened to prevent it happening again.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

I don't have an agenda. I'm highlighting the issue of double-standards. A man who commits "family annihilation", as it's called in the US, is often referred to as evil but a woman who does it is referred to as mentally ill.

Er, just like all the speculation in the media about mental illness being a factor in this case?

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

For my part I don't care what he was suffering with or whether he was insane or not.
He brutally murdered his wife and children.
There are loads of insane people who did not resort to that and in such a violent manner. The fact that he left notes warning people not to proceed into the house but to inform the Garda proves to me how calculating he was.

So you acknowledge the possibility, however slight, that there was insanity, or diminished responsibility at the very least, in this case.

Believe it or not, some parents who have violently killed their children were insane and thus didn't understand their own actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7191847.stm

A psychiatrist who drowned her daughter in a bath has been found not guilty of murder, by reason of insanity. Lynn Gibbs, 47, admitted killing her 16-year-old daughter Ciara at their home in Gowran, County Kilkenny, in November 2006.
Both the prosecution and defence had argued at Dublin's Circuit Criminal Court that she had been suffering from a mental disorder at the time.
She was committed back to the Central Mental Hospital for further treatment.
It took the jury 20 minutes to reach its conclusion.

infogiver

political analyst wrote: »

So you acknowledge the possibility, however slight, that there was insanity, or diminished responsibility at the very least, in this case.

Believe it or not, some parents who have violently killed their children were insane and thus didn't understand their own actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7191847.stm

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

There is evidence of abuse.

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.
Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

What is so difficult to understand about that?
Or are you suggesting that controlling, or abusive behaviour, is in itself only possible if one is insane?

But you haven't seen any evidence one way or the other regarding mental illness in this case. Do you not think it's a bit arrogant of you to dismiss mental Illness as a contributing factor before any inquest?
I mean, how on earth do you imagine you are qualified in any way to assume that there is no evidence of mental illness when you, or any of us, haven't seen or heard any reports of the evidence or witnesses testimony at the inquest?
Because IT HASNT BEEN HELD YET!
Is that do difficult for YOU to grasp?
It could turn out that Alan Hawe was a cold calculating evil controlling wife beating monster.
Of course I know that many murderers are perfectly sane and perfectly evil.
What I'm happy to do, and the pitchfork wielding lynch mob are not, is reserve my judgment until an effort has been made to investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no evidence of mental illness in this case.

there is no evidence of no mental illness either.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is evidence of abuse.

only claims more then actual evidence. he might very well have been an abuser, but until we get the full picture we just don't know.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not everyone who commits murder does so because of insanity.

nobody said otherwise.

Deleted User wrote: »

Some do, but certainly not all. Therefore, it is very possible, even probable, that mental illness was not a factor in this case.

it's also possible, even probable, that mental illness might have been a factor in this case. we just don't know either way.

eviltwin

political analyst wrote: »

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

Maybe they didn't know there was abuse or didn't realise the severity. Or maybe in their shock they couldn't think straight and allowed the priest to guide them. There are still sections of society for who keeping up appearances is all important. Reading the interview her mother and sister gave recently it's clear they have different opinions now.

infogiver

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe they didn't know there was abuse or didn't realise the severity. Or maybe in their shock they couldn't think straight and allowed the priest to guide them. There are still sections of society for who keeping up appearances is all important. Reading the interview her mother and sister gave recently it's clear they have different opinions now.

I think it's cruel of you and a terrible injustice to suggest that the mother and sister of the dead woman, a grandmother and aunt to 3 dead children, were "keeping up appearances " when making funeral arrangements.
You have no clue who these people are or the trauma they endured but feel free to speculate wildly about why they made the decisions they did.
Boards gives me a headache at times.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

If Clodagh's mother and sister knew that there was domestic abuse then why would they let him be buried with her and the children? The shock of the atrocity cannot have made them forget about the previous abuse.

I believe the sisters comment was "What we now know" - so I would assume that they found something out after the tragedy.

It's clear that they are unhappy with the burial arrangements now, at any rate.

infogiver wrote: »

But you haven't seen any evidence one way or the other regarding mental illness in this case. Do you not think it's a bit arrogant of you to dismiss mental Illness as a contributing factor before any inquest?
I mean, how on earth do you imagine you are qualified in any way to assume that there is no evidence of mental illness when you, or any of us, haven't seen or heard any reports of the evidence or witnesses testimony at the inquest?
Because IT HASNT BEEN HELD YET!
Is that do difficult for YOU to grasp?
It could turn out that Alan Hawe was a cold calculating evil controlling wife beating monster.
Of course I know that many murderers are perfectly sane and perfectly evil.
What I'm happy to do, and the pitchfork wielding lynch mob are not, is reserve my judgment until an effort has been made to investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.

All this because I said mental illness probably wasn't a factor?

Wow! Overreact, much?

still finding it pretty astonishing how there are posters sitting waiting for a comment, any comment, to this thread so that they can bark out that nobody should comment to this thread.

its a very puzzling instinct.

when posters exhibiting this type of behaviour only question the right of anyone to post from one point of view its less puzzling but does start to look like..... i dunno some. sort of agenda?

a bizarre one, but yes id have to say it starts to look like an agenda.

Fakediamond

Mental illness involves entering an altered reality, where rational thinking is absent.

The reason that people say Alan Hawe was not mentally ill is because he had the presence of mind to write self-serving notes before taking his own life.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I think this is part of the problem that Tayto lover and others have with these tragedies.
I know it's unbelievable, but lots of people just don't accept that mental illness is a "thing".
Even after all this time, even after all the evidence, they just don't believe it.
No such thing as depression ( pull yourself together, what have you got to be depressed about, there's others worse off than you...)
No such thing as stress, anxiety bi polar or even schizophrenia.
It's all made up pretentious rubbish.
People looking for "notice ".
People are never "mad" they're just "bad".
It makes me despair.

The main gripe I have is them being buried together.
It wouldn't matter to me if he had a mental illness or not he would not be in the grave with my relatives if I could help it at all.
He put them through extreme terror in their last hours and doesn't deserve to be there with them now. Madness or badness is irrelevant in this case. I do believe he was an evil person though and have nothing make me believe otherwise. Loads of people with mental illnesses go through life without murdering their nearest and dearest.

tayto lover

infogiver wrote: »

I think it's cruel of you and a terrible injustice to suggest that the mother and sister of the dead woman, a grandmother and aunt to 3 dead children, were "keeping up appearances " when making funeral arrangements.
You have no clue who these people are or the trauma they endured but feel free to speculate wildly about why they made the decisions they did.
Boards gives me a headache at times.

You on the otherhand seem very naive and always at the ready to defend the indefensible. Always the defender of the poor murderer.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

still finding it pretty astonishing how there are posters sitting waiting for a comment, any comment, to this thread so that they can bark out that nobody should comment to this thread.

its a very puzzling instinct.

when posters exhibiting this type of behaviour only question the right of anyone to post from one point of view its less puzzling but does start to look like..... i dunno some. sort of agenda?

a bizarre one, but yes id have to say it starts to look like an agenda.

Yes it's a huge conspiracy organised by the WBI (wife beaters Ireland) to prevent discussion about domestic violence.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the utter tastelessness and crassness of speculating wildly about the circumstances of a terrible tragedy which has rent asunder an entire community.
Go right ahead and pick over the bones of other people's heartache for your own entertainment.
If it ever happens to you I'm sure you won't mind a whole online community discussing your business, about which they know precisely nothing.