5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

robbiezero

osarusan wrote: »

I have seen one direct mention of him being a controlling and manipulative man, from a link provided earlier.

I think that to a great extent we simply don't know what was going on, and while I absolutely agree that 'he must have been mentally ill' is a cheap, lazy attempt to understand, I also think that the 'he must have been a bastard all along' is kind of lazy also.


I think both are a somewhat similar jump to conclusions, at least based on what I have (and haven't) seen.

Your wasting your time. I tried the same tack weeks ago, saying there was not enough evidence as of yet to suggest this. I think at least from the evidence I have seen, that it is very tenuous if not outright speculative to go from article(s) talking about "controlling, manipulative" to

"He abused his family over years"
"A family member said that he had been abusing Clodagh and the family for years."

Nothing in any article I have seen, gives a basis for the above two "statements of fact".

demfad

osarusan wrote: »

I genuinely don't think that answers the question though.

You asked where in that article it said he was abusive.
I replied with quotes. I'll put it in bold this time.

Mother and daughter hope by speaking out, it will help other families living with silent, secretive abuse within the home to look for the dangers and find help before it is too late.

“In time we will work to highlight domestic violence, especially the silent type where there are no obvious warning signs, just like Clodagh’s situation.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/clodagh-boys-never-stood-chance-9367017

A week after the mass murder a relative also revealed the following:

"Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.

“To keep up that illusion over many years took skills not normally associated with those who have mental illness.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750



Here is a definition of domestic violence/abuse for clarity.

We define domestic violence as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over another intimate partner. Domestic violence can be physical, sexual, emotional, economic, or psychological actions or threats of actions that influence another person. This includes any behaviors that intimidate, manipulate, humiliate, isolate, frighten, terrorize, coerce, threaten, blame, hurt, injure, or wound someone.

https://www.justice.gov/ovw/domestic-violence

Merkin

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Read this though,

"The Coroner Dr. Sean Nixon said the couple were loving parents who thought they were bringing their children to a better place in heaven."

He killed his wife and kids! There was no joint decision here!!

:eek: What piece is this from?

Mortpourvelo

Merkin wrote: »

:eek: What piece is this from?

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/nothing-has-changed-since-sharon-grace-tragedy-27517286.html

Bout halfway down - shortly after he reported that the wife suffered blunt force trauma before being strangled whilst possibly unconscious!

nice_guy80

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Read this though,

"The Coroner Dr. Sean Nixon said the couple were loving parents who thought they were bringing their children to a better place in heaven."

a state official said this? where?

Mortpourvelo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

a state official said this? where?

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/nothing-has-changed-since-sharon-grace-tragedy-27517286.html

Terrifying it is.

osarusan

volchitsa wrote: »

So unless you have other suggestions that haven't been discussed here, I think that the ones for which there is any evidence at all are likelier than those, such as mental illness, for which there is zero evidence.

It is more likely than an argument that has 'no evidence at all', granted.

I agree with that, but I don't think there being 'any evidence at all' is in itself enough to make it a very strong argument.

As I said, it seems to me that a lot of it is down to 'must have been...' along the lines of - there must have been abuse, and if there was, and yet we couldn't see any evidence of it, it must have been silent and secretive.

I don't think there is near enough evidence to be talking about 'years of abuse' and a woman who was afraid to try and get help because she wouldn't be believed by the community, such was Alan's presence as a pillar of that community - but these are some of the things that have been said on this thread.

I think that in an effort to try and find some understanding/answers, there has been a jump to conclusions.

But maybe I just haven't seen some stuff that others have, or just don't find it as compelling.

8mv

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/nothing-has-changed-since-sharon-grace-tragedy-27517286.html

Terrifying it is.

That article does not mention the Haugh case - you are mistaken or trying to be deliberately misleading.

kittensmittens

LynnGrace wrote: »

I had the exact same thought.

I pity Clodagh's family from the bottom of my heart. I cannot even begin to imagine the horror of what they were trying to comprehend in the days leading into the funeral, still less the heartbreak that they will never get over, losing her and those three innocent boys in such a horrendous way.

I cannot imagine how tough it would be for them to want to visit her and the grandchildren but could gain no solace at the graveside when that animal is in there as well.
I wouldn't normally be a gung ho type, but I could genuinely see myself trying to claw him out of there with my bare hands.
Jesus, when you think about it, they havent even got the peace to grieve!! :mad:

demfad

osarusan wrote: »

As I said, it seems to me that a lot of it is down to 'must have been...' along the lines of - there must have been abuse, and if there was, and yet we couldn't see any evidence of it, it must have been silent and secretive.

Sorry can you substantiate this statement with reference and quotes?

I did not see any "must have been" in relation to domestic violence in the families article yesterday. It was quite definite. You seem to be trying to put words in their mouths for your own reasons. Given their bravery in coming forward and speaking out they are owed a little more than this.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Lads, not only has that mother and child case got nothing to do with this thread, it is still in the courts and legally cannot be discussed here. Stop.



(posts have been removed)

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod:

Also, jameorahiely has been given a day off for that remark. Refrain from replying to it, thanks.

Spanish Eyes

Remember the murder of the two little girls in Ballycotton, followed by the suicide of the murderer/dad?

The mother, Una Butler allowed the father and the girls to be waked in the family home together, but the husband/dad had a separate funeral and was buried elsewhere.

A compromise for both sides in a tragic situation, but best all round I think, and I admire her so much for having the presence of mind to see it through.

She can now visit her little girls' graves in peace.

demfad

I think some posters on this thread have demonstrated just how hard it must be for an isolated women suffering domestic abuse to speak out in Ireland.

Posters who have actually read through this thread may know:

• That As a starting point, 70% of all similar cases there is a history of domestic violence. Serious mental illness accounts for 5% (as does substance abuse.)

• That the common factor in all these cases is a proprietary attitude to family, a patriarcal worldview. This major 2013 British study concluded: "The (family) annihilation makes public what had often been a private reality –a reality masked to family, friends and neighbours who often thought that this man had been a ‘doting’ and ‘loving’ father and ‘dutiful’ husband."

• That Alan Hawe showed no signs of mental illness at any time before the mass murder and its premeditation and note of explanation rules out a mental 'snap'.

• That Hawe appeared to be very religious and had a traditional, patriarcal family view according to the priest "steeped in the noble traditions of family"

• That Clodagh Hawe seemed to be unsociable, quiet, withdrawn and was never seen out without Alan, indicating potential isolation and control. Not even a photo could be found anywhere.

• That locals had commented on how quiet and private a house it was. That no-one really knew what went on inside.

• That a family relative had stated that Clodagh was known before she met Hawe as an extremely outgoing and vibrant woman, and that Hawe had been manipulative and controlling while giving the illusion of a community pillar over many years.

• That Clodagh's Mother and Sister STATED definitively that there had been abuse and domestic violence in the relationship, using those words.

(by no means exhaustive)

Everything points towards this case as being part of the 70% and nothing points away from this. Nothing.

Even with Clodagh and her 3 boys violent murder on top of all this -- posters here STILL refuse to believe her, still cast doubt, still make excuses for the killer Alan Hawe. If these people won't even believe her now what chance would she have in persuading those in awe of the local community hero back then?

Ironically, the people who are wondering why she didn't tell anyone then have demonstrated that they are the type of people least likely to have believed her.

Her family have stated that they are speaking for her now. They have stated that she suffered domestic violence and abuse silently as many tens of thousands of women and families in Ireland do. It's time we learned the lessons and listen to her now. And listen to them. We cant help Clodagh or her boys, we can help others though.

volchitsa

demfad wrote: »

I think some posters on this thread have demonstrated just how hard it must be for an isolated women suffering domestic abuse to speak out in Ireland.
...
Everything points towards this case as being part of the 70% and nothing points away from this. Nothing.

Even with Clodagh and her 3 boys violent murder on top of all this -- posters here STILL refuse to believe her, still cast doubt, still make excuses for the killer Alan Hawe. If these people won't even believe her now what chance would she have in persuading those in awe of the local community hero back then?

Ironically, the people who are wondering why she didn't tell anyone then have demonstrated that they are the type of people least likely to have believed her.

Terrific post which I haven't quoted completely as it's still just up thread, but this bolded bit seems absolutely fundamental to me.

The man deliberately murdered his wife and children, with no signs of mental illness before or during the event - and some people still don't believe that he was abusive! How much more abusive can someone be?

So what possible reason is there to think those same people, faced with a live woman wanting help to get out of a relationship wouldn't have reacted with the same scepticism? A woman who possibly hadn't ever actually been physically attacked, just said she felt scared and over-controlled by her husband : those same automatic dismissive reactions would have kicked in, and she'd have been told to think of how her children needed their father, and possibly how hard (for which read shameful) it would be to find herself a single mother etc etc.

Goya

political analyst wrote: »

I don't have an agenda. I'm highlighting the issue of double-standards. A man who commits "family annihilation", as it's called in the US, is often referred to as evil but a woman who does it is referred to as mentally ill.

Crikey. I actually see your point and I have never seen any evidence that Hawe was abusing Clodagh in the lead-up to the horror he committed (not saying he definitely didn't but there is no evidence to my knowledge) but do you really think it's appropriate to pick this thread to highlight it?

I know I'm indirectly doing so myself now, but jeez, there's a time and a place.

political analyst

I'm aware that Hawe has two brothers. Presumably, he was brought up in the same way as his brothers. So how did he turn into a monster?

The following article is from 2012:

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/56913/Windgap-hurler-Enda-is-the-toast.html

I believe that Hawe was mentally ill because the fact that the atrocity took place in the family home means that there was a much shorter period of pre-meditation than the perpetrators of the Dunblane and Sandy Hook massacres.

Furthermore, Gregory Fox, who murdered his wife and children in 2001, and Sanjeev Chadha, who murdered his sons, are definitely evil because they were weak in the methods they used in their suicide attempts. Furthermore, Chadha didn't kill his wife because he believed that she'd be too strong to overpower - underscoring his cowardice.

political analyst

Flimpson wrote: »

Crikey. I actually see your point and I have never seen any evidence that Hawe was abusing Clodagh in the lead-up to the horror he committed (not saying he definitely didn't but there is no evidence to my knowledge) but do you really think it's appropriate to pick this thread to highlight it?

I know I'm indirectly doing so myself now, but jeez, there's a time and a place.

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

volchitsa

political analyst wrote: »

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

The thread is about a man who murdered his wife and children. You chose to try to make it into a woman-bashing thread instead.

You invent a hypothetical mirror scenario in which a woman might have done exact,y the same thing (but you haven't managed to find one that is actually all that similar) and you tell us she'd have been treated better than he was.

Given that the murderer here was lionized by the press and church etc until people started objecting, it's hard to see how a woman could have got better treatment. But still, your problem here is that a woman would (you think) get better press treatment even more than Hawe did. That says a lot IMO.

political analyst

[QUOTE=volchitsa;101850092]The thread is about a man who murdered his wife and children. You chose to try to make it into a woman-bashing thread instead.

You invent a hypothetical mirror scenario in which a woman might have done exact,y the same thing (but you haven't managed to find one that is actually all that similar) and you tell us she'd have been treated better than he was.

Given that the murderer here was lionized by the press and church etc until people started objecting, it's hard to see how a woman could have got better treatment. But still, your problem here is that a woman would (you think) get better press treatment even more than Hawe did. That says a lot IMO.[/QUOTE]

That's not true.

Anything about the deliberate killing of children by one of their parents is relevant.

The press and the Church were not lionizing him. The photo of Hawe with his children was published almost immediately simply because it became available much quicker than the photos of Clodagh on her own and of the whole family.

At the funeral, the priest described Hawe's action as evil.

Nobody was making excuses for Hawe - they were simply trying to comprehend the atrocity.

I've heard of teachers abusing pupils but his occupation makes this horrific crime unprecedented in this country.

What makes this case different is that he had the delusional belief that he was protecting his family from a greater evil. If he had been a paedophile I would have said "To Hell with him!" because a paedophile's crimes are obviously evil because of sexual motivation.

Goya

political analyst wrote: »

Yes - because this thread is about the case!

It's not about women killing their families is what I meant. Nor is it about cases when women do it versus when men do it.

Hawe was spoken of extremely highly too - plenty of people were saying the very opposite to him being an evil bastard, plus plenty have speculated whether he was mentally ill.

Balagan

political analyst wrote: »

That's not true.

Anything about the deliberate killing of children by one of their parents is relevant.

The press and the Church were not lionizing him. The photo of Hawe with his children was published almost immediately simply because it became available much quicker than the photos of Clodagh on her own and of the whole family.

At the funeral, the priest described Hawe's action as evil.

Nobody was making excuses for Hawe - they were simply trying to comprehend the atrocity.

I've heard of teachers abusing pupils but his occupation makes this horrific crime unprecedented in this country.

What makes this case different is that he had the delusional belief that he was protecting his family from a greater evil. If he had been a paedophile I would have said "To Hell with him!" because a paedophile's crimes are obviously evil because of sexual motivation.

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

sadie06

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/bloody-frenzy-of-a-mother-filled-with-life-and-laughter-26408675.html

I'm not sure why nobody seems to remember this case, but as people are looking for an example of an Irish woman being the perpetrator in this sort of scenario, here it is.

Her husband claimed at the time that he knew she was under enormous pressure and not coping. I'm not sure if his attitude changed.

pilly

Why oh why do these threads always have to turn into men vs women. It's about one particular Case!

sadie06

I actually posted the above for balance. I feel every case must be judged individually.

Nekarsulm

Balagan wrote: »

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

Correct, It was not until the Months Mind that any comments with a negative connotation were reportedly made by the clergy towards the killer.

pilly

sadie06 wrote:

I actually posted the above for balance. I feel every case must be judged individually.

That wasn't particularly aimed at you Sadie, more the person who started the debate about "what if it was a Woman? " just no need for it.

political analyst

Balagan wrote: »

I think you'll find that the priest said no such thing at the funeral!

Apologies.

I didn't look at the date in the following article.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/what-alan-evil-theres-no-8967033

snowbabe

sadie06 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/bloody-frenzy-of-a-mother-filled-with-life-and-laughter-26408675.html

I'm not sure why nobody seems to remember this case, but as people are looking for an example of an Irish woman being the perpetrator in this sort of scenario, here it is.



Her husband claimed at the time that he knew she was under enormous pressure and not coping. I'm not sure if his attitude changed.

I remember this very well,sometimes there's a background story that only becomes clear in time. The husband certainly knew she was under pressure, and also things are kept quiet to protect the children. He's doing well so I've heard.

volchitsa

According to this article, she had been treated for mental illness in the past and was under medication :

The 41-year-old mother of two, who stabbed her sons Andrew, 10, and six-year-old Glen to death before killing herself, is understood to have been treated for mental illness in the past.

Officers investigating the tragedy have removed medication from the house in Killakee Walk, Firhouse, South Dublin, and accessed medical records in an effort to piece together a motive for the killings.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/SLAUGHTER+OF+THE+INNOCENTS%3A+KILLER+MUM'S+MENTAL+ILLNESS%3B+Drugs+seized...-a0142077391

Also the woman didn't choose a completely different, less painful death than her children. So very different from Alan Hawe.

(Just for wiw, I don't think that depression alone is enough of an explanation, because lots of people have depression and nerve harm their family, but I do think it at least goes some way towards explaining such a tragedy. But there was nothing like that in the Hawe case. Nothing.)