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5 members of family found dead in Cavan - NO SPECULATION

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    #1982
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    I'm out of here! The squabbling here just does my head in. Gender, gender, gender, blah, blah, blah. So many threads turn into this stupid discussion. Who cares? Really? If people personally have a problem with it it's obviously because they've had a bad experience of something but please stop taking it out on the rest of us.


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    #1983
    Johnnyjump
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭Johnnyjump


    pilly wrote: »
    I'm out of here! The squabbling here just does my head in. Gender, gender, gender, blah, blah, blah. So many threads turn into this stupid discussion. Who cares? Really? If people personally have a problem with it it's obviously because they've had a bad experience of something but please stop taking it out on the rest of us.

    Absolutely agree, Pilly.


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    #1984
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    pilly wrote: »
    I'm out of here! The squabbling here just does my head in. Gender, gender, gender, blah, blah, blah. So many threads turn into this stupid discussion. Who cares? Really? If people personally have a problem with it it's obviously because they've had a bad experience of something but please stop taking it out on the rest of us.

    If you bothered to read through the thread you will find that the vast majority of cases of domestic violence and family annihilation are perpetrated by males for reasons of male entitlement and a sense of family ownership.
    There has been links to research on family annihilation and DV scores of times in this thread.


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    #1985
    Johnnyjump
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭Johnnyjump


    demfad wrote: »
    If you bothered to read through the thread you will find that the vast majority of cases of domestic violence and family annihilation are perpetrated by males for reasons of male entitlement and a sense of family ownership.
    There has been links to research on family annihilation and DV scores of times in this thread.

    What you've said is absolutely correct but the squabbling here, as mentioned by Pilly, is an issue also. At the end of the day, nothing compares to the pain and grief of the families involved, especially as Christmas is approaching.


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    #1986
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,925 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The little boy who was killed by his mother in the London murder/suicide tragedy is being buried without her in Wicklow.

    The death notice on RIP.ie is very poignant.

    Oisin O'Driscoll, may he rest in peace poor lad.


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    #1987
    Johnnyjump
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭Johnnyjump


    Another very, very sad situation. A difficult one for the family left behind. Just hope it happened quickly for the poor little guy.


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    #1988
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Johnnyjump wrote: »
    Just been reading this squabbling, back and forth, trying to prove who is standing on the higher moral ground. Spare a thought for the two families who are heartbroken this Christmas. No matter what anybody says on here, it's not going to help them but I suspect that reading some of this stuff would be nothing short of agonising for them.

    I'd be very surprised if any family members went searching online for idle internet chat about their personal family tragedy. That would be a very foolish thing to do.


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    #1989
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Why didn't Alan Hawe's brothers suggest taking his body back to Kilkenny? I wonder do they have an inkling of his motive for these horrendous crimes. Presumably, they are devastated but it's a hundred times worse for Clodagh's mother and sister and his brothers had to have known that.

    An inquest will have to take place at some point in the near future.

    Homicide is a matter of public concern. Therefore, those people who know about his motive should speak out.


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    #1990
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    political analyst wrote: »
    Why didn't Alan Hawe's brothers suggest taking his body back to Kilkenny? I wonder do they have an inkling of his motive for these horrendous crimes. Presumably, they are devastated but it's a hundred times worse for Clodagh's mother and sister and his brothers had to have known that.

    An inquest will have to take place at some point in the near future.

    Homicide is a matter of public concern. Therefore, those people who know about his motive should speak out.

    To be honest, I have trouble taking exception to anything the families did. I can't imagine how absolutely awful that must have been, both for Clodagh's family and for the Hawes. I can kinda imagine that the Hawe family might not have wanted to be making a fuss if they thought Clodagh's family felt they should be buried together. I mean, imagine coping with that anyway. It's not, of course, about who's suffering most, but imagine losing your brother and the kids and -knowing your brother is to blame-, the kid you have memories of growing up with, the man you shared Christmases etcetera with. At least Clodagh Hawe's innocence makes her family much more likely to be sympathised with rather than whispered about.

    Nrk. No, I have trouble feeling anything but sympathy for the families involved, both of them.


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    #1991
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Could the root of the crime be traced to Alan Hawe's past back in Kilkenny - before he even met Clodagh? Someone told me that something about his past in Kilkenny was going to emerge. Was he a paedophile?


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    #1992
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    HellSquirrel wrote: »
    To be honest, I have trouble taking exception to anything the families did. I can't imagine how absolutely awful that must have been, both for Clodagh's family and for the Hawes. I can kinda imagine that the Hawe family might not have wanted to be making a fuss if they thought Clodagh's family felt they should be buried together. I mean, imagine coping with that anyway. It's not, of course, about who's suffering most, but imagine losing your brother and the kids and -knowing your brother is to blame-, the kid you have memories of growing up with, the man you shared Christmases etcetera with. At least Clodagh Hawe's innocence makes her family much more likely to be sympathised with rather than whispered about.

    Nrk. No, I have trouble feeling anything but sympathy for the families involved, both of them.
    I'd see it differently.
    My relatives would not lie with their brutal killer. No way.
    That man butchered any semblance of family, marriage and friendship he had. I'd have him out of there if they were my daughter and grandchildren.


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    #1993
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I'd see it differently.
    My relatives would not lie with their brutal killer. No way.
    That man butchered any semblance of family, marriage and friendship he had. I'd have him out of there if they were my daughter and grandchildren.

    A lot of people agree with you, and that's your prerogative, ofc. I agree with you myself. But at the time, it appeared to be what the family wanted (family may have been railroaded by the priest and/or other presumably well-meaning but misguided people), so the last people to argue with them would probably be the Hawes, all things considered.


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    #1994
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    HellSquirrel wrote: »
    A lot of people agree with you, and that's your prerogative, ofc. I agree with you myself. But at the time, it appeared to be what the family wanted (family may have been railroaded by the priest and/or other presumably well-meaning but misguided people), so the last people to argue with them would probably be the Hawes, all things considered.

    The family were in shock and the funeral was soon enough after the murders.
    Had the burials been maybe 6 weeks later, which can happen in England and elsewhere, we might have had a different type of funeral i.e. one for him and another for the wife and kids.


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    #1995
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The family were in shock and the funeral was soon enough after the murders.
    Had the burials been maybe 6 weeks later, which can happen in England and elsewhere, we might have had a different type of funeral i.e. one for him and another for the wife and kids.

    Oh yeah, but the situation was as it was. Ireland does traditionally bury people with what might be considered indecent haste elsewhere! And in a situation like this, it probably doesn't give time for families to work out which way is up, let alone what the most appropriate managing of it is. I wasn't really debating the rights or wrongs of that, more just expressing sympathy for the Hawes/responding to a "why didn't they do this" type statement.


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    #1996
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    HellSquirrel wrote: »
    Oh yeah, but the situation was as it was. Ireland does traditionally bury people with what might be considered indecent haste elsewhere! And in a situation like this, it probably doesn't give time for families to work out which way is up, let alone what the most appropriate managing of it is. I wasn't really debating the rights or wrongs of that, more just expressing sympathy for the Hawes/responding to a "why didn't they do this" type statement.

    In England, a month often passes between death and the funeral. I think it's because a permit must be sought from the local council.


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    #1997
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The family were in shock and the funeral was soon enough after the murders.
    Had the burials been maybe 6 weeks later, which can happen in England and elsewhere, we might have had a different type of funeral i.e. one for him and another for the wife and kids.

    But that's not the tradition here in rural Ireland.
    I don't think there was any "railroading".
    In the horror of discovering your daughter and grandchildren are dead, add to that the fact that they have been murdered, then add to that the fact that the murderer was this man that your family welcomed in, the father of your grandchildren, a man you loved and admired, the man your daughter chose.
    The only way to cope with that in the short term is to believe that he had had some kind of severe psychotic episode. That an otherwise good decent man had been tipped over the edge by hidden demons, and that they were all together
    now in paradise and should be laid to rest as the perfect family that they were.
    For any of you to suggest that the maternal grandmother of the dead children should have been able to process the possibility that her son in law was a wife beating evil monster and that her daughter and grandchildren had suffered for years at his hands shows a shocking lack of empathy really


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    #1998
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    infogiver wrote: »
    But that's not the tradition here in rural Ireland.
    I don't think there was any "railroading".
    In the horror of discovering your daughter and grandchildren are dead, add to that the fact that they have been murdered, then add to that the fact that the murderer was this man that your family welcomed in, the father of your grandchildren, a man you loved and admired, the man your daughter chose.
    The only way to cope with that in the short term is to believe that he had had some kind of severe psychotic episode. That an otherwise good decent man had been tipped over the edge by hidden demons, and that they were all together
    now in paradise and should be laid to rest as the perfect family that they were.
    For any of you to suggest that the maternal grandmother of the dead children should have been able to process the possibility that her son in law was a wife beating evil monster and that her daughter and grandchildren had suffered for years at his hands shows a shocking lack of empathy really
    It's what he was in the end that matters to me.
    He was a cruel evil bastard. No denying that. AND he put a lot into the planning of the murder to such an extent that he left notes to spare people the gruesome sight that he was capable of creating. Ego to the last.
    He wouldn't be in the same grave as them if they were mine.


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    #1999
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Hawe's smile in the photos that have published in the media makes him appear sinister. He looked snide.


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    #2000
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It's what he was in the end that matters to me.
    He was a cruel evil bastard. No denying that. AND he put a lot into the planning of the murder to such an extent that he left notes to spare people the gruesome sight that he was capable of creating. Ego to the last.
    He wouldn't be in the same grave as them if they were mine.

    I don't know why you are speculating on what happened in that house when there hasn't been any inquest yet and you know no more about what happened then any other stranger.
    What makes you think that you can reach conclusions based on scant vague accounts in the media and your own imagination? You simply don't know, but your very happy to rush to a judgment.
    I'll never understand this eagerness and impatience almost to have a bogeyman in place....someone to turn into a hate figure...evil ...ego...
    You don't know but your going to go out there on a limb anyway. No need to wait for evidence gathering or witness testimonies.
    Tayto lover has decided and that's it.


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    #2001
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,679 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    infogiver wrote: »
    I don't know why you are speculating on what happened in that house when there hasn't been any inquest yet and you know no more about what happened then any other stranger.
    What makes you think that you can reach conclusions based on scant vague accounts in the media and your own imagination? You simply don't know, but your very happy to rush to a judgment.
    I'll never understand this eagerness and impatience almost to have a bogeyman in place....someone to turn into a hate figure...evil ...ego...
    You don't know but your going to go out there on a limb anyway. No need to wait for evidence gathering or witness testimonies.
    Tayto lover has decided and that's it.

    I think because the idea that Hawe was not a bogeyman type figure or evil or any other sinister person is a terrifying prospect for the human psyche to process. If he was a regular man, just like you and me, then perhaps we too are capable of inflicting such horror on others.


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    #2002
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    I'm lost was this arson or ?


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    #2003
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,679 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I'm lost was this arson or ?

    Read the first post of the thread.


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    #2004
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    infogiver wrote: »
    I don't know why you are speculating on what happened in that house when there hasn't been any inquest yet and you know no more about what happened then any other stranger.
    What makes you think that you can reach conclusions based on scant vague accounts in the media and your own imagination? You simply don't know, but your very happy to rush to a judgment.
    I'll never understand this eagerness and impatience almost to have a bogeyman in place....someone to turn into a hate figure...evil ...ego...
    You don't know but your going to go out there on a limb anyway. No need to wait for evidence gathering or witness testimonies.
    Tayto lover has decided and that's it.


    I am simply commenting on what happened on the last night the family were together. Don't know what went on before. There is a lot known locally about what happened in the house.

    What went on that night was enough for me to base my opinion on Alan being a cruel evil bastard. I know enough to make that judgement.


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    #2005
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I'm lost was this arson or ?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Read the first post of the thread.

    May be best not to in this particular case, a lot of things happened since then.

    In short, a couple of months ago, a woman and three young lads were stabbed to death by the father/husband. He left notes on the back door warning visitors not to come in but to call the police and left another couple of notes.

    At the time, it was treated as a psychotic break or evidence that the man had been under a lot of stress and he and his family were buried together, perhaps (unconfirmed how much pressure was there or if it was only gentle suggestion) due to the parish priest. This caused outrage later on, especially as Clodagh Hawe's family indicated that the husband had been controlling and it became more of a question of domestic violence reaching a terrible conclusion rather than a mental health issue exploding out of control. There was a lot of criticism at how lauded Alan Hawe had been after the deaths and there was a feeling that Clodagh Hawe had been rather whitewashed out of the picture (trouble finding photos of her, for instance) in favour of talking about how wonderful a man Hawe had been.

    It's a tragic story and it's caused a resurgence in Irish media and people discussing how we treat questions of domestic violence, especially if it goes unnoticed. It's also raised questions of mental health (even if disproved, the questions were there and spoken about) and even the power of the Church in social mores (the burial business) in Ireland.

    No arson though.


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    #2006
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I'm lost was this arson or ?

    This must be the case you're thinking of - in the following case, the mother of the children was, just like in the Hawe case, from Co. Cavan.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8401435.stm
    Convicted sex offender Arthur McElhill killed himself and his family in a house fire in Omagh, County Tyrone, a coroner has ruled.
    Coroner Suzanne Anderson said McElhill burned the house down because his partner, Lorraine McGovern, threatened to leave him.
    McElhill, Ms McGovern and their five children died in the blaze at Lammy Crescent in November 2007.
    He had been having sex with a 16-year-old girl in the weeks before the fire.


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    #2007
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    political analyst wrote: »
    This must be the case you're thinking of - in the following case, the mother of the children was, just like in the Hawe case, from Co. Cavan.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8401435.stm

    Given that quote there all I can think is "what an absolute son of a bitch."


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    #2008
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    HellSquirrel wrote: »
    Given that quote there all I can think is "what an absolute son of a bitch."

    There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.


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    #2009
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭political analyst


    tayto lover wrote: »
    There would still be some on here trying to make him sound like a normal decent person though. Pillar of society.

    HellSquirrel was referring to Arthur McElhill, who had done time for sexual abuse before he murdered his partner and their children.


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    #2010
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    political analyst wrote: »
    HellSquirrel was referring to Arthur McElhill, who had done time for sexual abuse before he murdered his partner and their children.

    I know that. Up in the Omagh area.


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    #2011
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,925 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The inquest will only give the verdict as to cause of death.

    It might throw up some information for the jury members and other interested parties, it might not.

    My guess is unlawful killing for Clodagh and the boys, and suicide for yer man.


This discussion has been closed.
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