Console. Charity, Irish-style

Mary63

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/console-audit-reveals-remarkable-details-of-spending-by-nun-1.2709300

Are you seriously telling me the HSE auditors could do nothing about this in 2015,they couldnt even ascertain that as the nun was no longer employed by console how could she be jetting off on holliers with a console credit card.Are you saying if the HSE send auditors into another charity in the morning they have no powers to stop fraudulent spending.What about going to the Gardai and reporting crime,is it not the duty of every citizen including Public officials to report suspected crime to the Gardai.Is reporting crime with the tampered credit card bills as evidence Ultra Vires too.Did the HSE not realise there is a fraud squad within the Gardai and they wouldnt have been asking Kelly for months to co operate with an audit.The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Its interesting that the nuns spending went up so dramatically in 2013,that was the same year the HSE funding of console increased dramatically,there was nothing to stop Kelly now,he carried on spending and submitted at least three sets of different accounts to hide what was happening.

Any enquiry into Console has to review who was responsible for making sure the money given by the HSE was used for the purpose for which it was given.Claiming that asking questions about multiple credit cards is ultra vires is just nonsense,no one is above the law.

2RockMountain

selastich2 wrote: »

a hse person worked in thier inner sanctum for a year and noticed nothing?

What is this 'inner sanctum' you speak of? What was the role of this HSE person who spent a year at Console? And how many other people spent time at Console but noticed nothing?

Mary63 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/console-audit-reveals-remarkable-details-of-spending-by-nun-1.2709300

Are you seriously telling me the HSE auditors could do nothing about this in 2015,they couldnt even ascertain that as the nun was no longer employed by console how could she be jetting off on holliers with a console credit card.Are you saying if the HSE send auditors into another charity in the morning they have no powers to stop fraudulent spending.What about going to the Gardai and reporting crime,is it not the duty of every citizen including Public officials to report suspected crime to the Gardai.Is reporting crime with the tampered credit card bills as evidence Ultra Vires too.Did the HSE not realise there is a fraud squad within the Gardai and they wouldnt have been asking Kelly for months to co operate with an audit.The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Its interesting that the nuns spending went up so dramatically in 2013,that was the same year the HSE funding of console increased dramatically,there was nothing to stop Kelly now,he carried on spending and submitted at least three sets of different accounts to hide what was happening.

WHat I'm telling you is that if you try to base action as serious as a Garda report on a half-completed audit report, you will find yourself on the wrong end of a High Court case, paying out even more money. HSE had to complete the audit - they had to give Console / Kelly due process, whether that irks you or not.

They did complete the audit, and they DID report Console to the Gardai, last February, long before Prime Time got their hands on the story.

selastich2

2RockMountain wrote: »

What is this 'inner sanctum' you speak of? What was the role of this HSE person who spent a year at Console? And how many other people spent time at Console but noticed nothing?



WHat I'm telling you is that if you try to base action as serious as a Garda report on a half-completed audit report, you will find yourself on the wrong end of a High Court case, paying out even more money. HSE had to complete the audit - they had to give Console / Kelly due process, whether that irks you or not.

They did complete the audit, and they DID report Console to the Gardai, last February, long before Prime Time got their hands on the story.

The position of chief executive would be inner sanctum, were they blind and deaf?

Mary63

Why did they have to complete the audit.

There was quite clearly fraud going on.The audit should have taken thirteen weeks but Kelly wouldnt co operate.That meant he had another full year to spend money that wasnt his.Why didnt the HSE refer the matter to the Garda fraud squad and ask them to demand the credit cards from Kelly.Kelly could have high footed it down to the Courts and the HSE could have shown the details of the spending as evidence including the fact that an ex employees name was being used by Kelly to hide the fact that he and his family had four credit cards.

There is no excuse for the inaction of the HSE and we can all be pretty sure Paul Kelly isnt the only person who took advantage of the HSES carelessness regarding where its money was ending up.The whole saga is beyond belief and Paul Kelly told lie after unbelievable lie to the HSE and basically laughed at the officials.

The primetime programme was two years in the making so the dogs on the street must have known what was going on.

The management in the Consoles offices were utterly incompetent,how could they not wonder how there was no money to pay their wages,to pay utilitiy bills,to pay rent.

The most incredible part of the whole saga is kelly being nominated for person of the year award and having the brass neck to accept it.

selastich2

Mary63 wrote: »

Why did they have to complete the audit.

There was quite clearly fraud going on.The audit should have taken thirteen weeks but Kelly wouldnt co operate.That meant he had another full year to spend money that wasnt his.Why didnt the HSE refer the matter to the Garda fraud squad and ask them to demand the credit cards from Kelly.Kelly could have high footed it down to the Courts and the HSE could have shown the details of the spending as evidence including the fact that an ex employees name was being used by Kelly to hide the fact that he and his family had four credit cards.

There is no excuse for the inaction of the HSE and we can all be pretty sure Paul Kelly isnt the only person who took advantage of the HSES carelessness regarding where its money was ending up.The whole saga is beyond belief and Paul Kelly told lie after unbelievable lie to the HSE and basically laughed at the officials.

The primetime programme was two years in the making so the dogs on the street must have known what was going on.

The most incredible part of the whole saga is kelly being nominated for person of the year award and having the brass neck to accept it.

According to the independent article posted, the national organisation for suicide prevention was giving an increase in grants to console on condition the undergo closer scrutiny. It was the NOSP that triggered the audit because tey were unhappy with consoles responses to requests for information.

The HSE needn't be patting themselves on the back for it

Mary63

Im beginning to wonder now about all charities,are they all just handed cheques by the HSE and who within the HSE is watching how our money is being spent.

Why would this just be peculiar to console.How could someone get away with sticking his employer for seven visits to a dentist,one visit costing over five hundred euros.Paul Kelly must possess a fine pair of knashers.

2RockMountain

selastich2 wrote: »

The position of chief executive would be inner sanctum, were they blind and deaf?

Paul Kelly was the Chief Executive. The HSE person on career break with Console was not Paul Kelly. So why would you expect them to know all the secrets?

Mary63 wrote: »

Why did they have to complete the audit.

There was quite clearly fraud going on.The audit should have taken thirteen weeks but Kelly wouldnt co operate.That meant he had another full year to spend money that wasnt his.Why didnt the HSE refer the matter to the Garda fraud squad and ask them to demand the credit cards from Kelly.Kelly could have high footed it down to the Courts and the HSE could have shown the details of the spending as evidence including the fact that an ex employees name was being used by Kelly to hide the fact that he and his family had four credit cards.

There is no excuse for the inaction of the HSE and we can all be pretty sure Paul Kelly isnt the only person who took advantage of the HSES carelessness regarding where its money was ending up.The whole saga is beyond belief and Paul Kelly told lie after unbelievable lie to the HSE and basically laughed at the officials.

The primetime programme was two years in the making so the dogs on the street must have known what was going on.

The most incredible part of the whole saga is kelly being nominated for person of the year award and having the brass neck to accept it.

Have you done many audits yourself, Mary? If not, I'd suggest you do a bit of research on them. A half-completed audit isn't worth the paper it is written on. Part of the audit process involves presenting draft audit findings, and getting a management response. If the HSE tried to do anything with a draft audit report that didn't have a management response, they'd have been thrown out of any Court or Garda Station in the land.

I'm fascinated to hear that the Prime Time report was two years in the making, because the draft audit report was covering spending for 2012-2014, so two years ago, the audit hadn't even started, so I've no idea what Prime Time were looking at two years ago. I'd be very interested in your source for this claim.

The HSE investigated, they reported it to the Gardai when they had the right evidence, and no Console is closed down and the service has been transferred.

2RockMountain

selastich2 wrote: »

According to the independent article posted, the national organisation for suicide prevention was giving an increase in grants to console on condition the undergo closer scrutiny. It was the NOSP that triggered the audit because tey were unhappy with consoles responses to requests for information.

The HSE needn't be patting themselves on the back for it

Eh, the NOSP IS the HSE.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/Mental_Health_Services/NOSP/about/

The role of the HSE's National Office for Suicide Prevention (NOSP) is to effectively support, inform, monitor and co-ordinate the implementation of Connecting for Life.

2RockMountain

Mary63 wrote: »

Im beginning to wonder now about all charities,are they all just handed cheques by the HSE and who within the HSE is watching how our money is being spent.

Why would this just be peculiar to console.How could someone get away with sticking his employer for seven visits to a dentist,one visit costing over five hundred euros.Paul Kelly must possess a fine pair of knashers.

You'd be better spending your time wondering why our political system requires the HSE to commission essential services from charities, and why very large organisations like Rehab, CRC, Brothers of Charity are able to masquerade as charities when they are actually very large businesses.

selastich2

2RockMountain wrote: »

Eh, the NOSP IS the HSE.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/Mental_Health_Services/NOSP/about/

In 200eight a HSE execuative was appointed chief execuative of console http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/former-console-chief-paul-kelly-plans-to-apply-for-social-welfare-34890395.html


Fair enough if the NOSP are the HSE, what do they do? Outsource all their work?

Mary63

Primetime themselves stated the programme was two years in the making.

Primetime probably started looking into Kellys past,it took people a long time to realise that the Paul Kelly who disappeared to Australia after another charity scam he was in was exposed was the same Kelly back again.

If you go into an organisation and discover three members of a family have spent huge sums of money on items which have nothing to do with the purposes of an organisation you can suspend the audit and refer the matter to the Gardai,please tell me in the real world this is what happens.You dont go back and forth giving people time to concoct elaborate stories about dental visits and speeding fines.

The figures involved werent petty cash,the Kellys spent hundreds of thousands of euros,I cant believe you are telling me action couldnt be taken until the audit was completed,this was embezzlement.

2RockMountain

Have you done many audits yourself, Mary?

selastich2

The crack audit team didn''t bother to interview the HSE executive with the inside track. More about how the audit proceeded here http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-failed-to-quiz-its-employee-seconded-to-console-about-funds-34888551.html

Mary63

I havent done audits myself and I am baffled as to how the Kellys could spend money the way they did after the HSE commenced the audit.

I genuinely cant grasp how experienced bureaucrats couldnt have blown the whistle,the evidence was there and kelly refused to answer questions about the accounts.He must be incredibly arrogant.

The HSEs funding of Console increased to 599,000 euros in 2013,they had received HSE funding of 252,000 euros in 2012.The increase was to provide a helpline service another failed charity had been providing.Paul Kelly cut the helplines from six to two because Console couldnt pay the bills.!!!!!!!

The nuns credit card was upgraded to a premier card in 2013,I presume because she was such a big spender."Her" spending in 2012 was 8000 euros,she found a crock of gold somewhere and in 2013 "her" spending increased to a whopping 59,000 euros.

It really is incredibly depressing stuff.

2RockMountain

selastich2 wrote: »

The crack audit teamwho were auditing spending from 2012-2014 didn''t bother to interview the HSE executive who may have hadthe inside track of how things worked in 2008. More about how the audit proceeded here http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-failed-to-quiz-its-employee-seconded-to-console-about-funds-34888551.html

Fixed your post there.

suicide_circus

The HSE an utter shambles you say?

2RockMountain

Mary63 wrote: »

I havent done audits myself and I am baffled as to how the Kellys could spend money the way they did after the HSE commenced the audit.

I genuinely cant grasp how experienced bureaucrats couldnt have blown the whistle,the evidence was there and kelly refused to answer questions about the accounts.He must be incredibly arrogant.

The evidence wasn't there until the audit was finished. Until the evidence had been presented to Kelly, and he had been given every and even repeated opportunities to provide a reasonable explanation, there was no evidence.

And when the evidence was there, the HSE took it to the Gardai.

selastich2

2RockMountain wrote: »

Fixed your post there.

In 200nine, there was questions about irregularities which were resolved to the satisfaction of the HSE. What checks did they do then?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-failed-to-quiz-its-employee-seconded-to-console-about-funds-34888551.html

Mary63

The money was gone,every last penny of it and the people who had the credit cards were Paul Kelly,his wife,his son and the unnamed individual who had left the organisation six years previously.

What evidence do you need in these circumstances to go to the fraud squad in the Gardai.

Why didnt the HSE advise the Gardai and the charities regulator that they couldnt complete the audit and in those circumstances Consoles licence to organise charity events should be withdrawn.

Why didnt the HSE stop the funding in 2015,if they had the charity would have collapsed and this wouldnt have made much difference to those using the services seeing as most of the money intended for the service was going elsewhere anyway.

Also I wonder why the HSE official was sent to work in Console in 2008,was it because even then there were suspicions about the charity.

gctest50

This shower are next, it's like dominos

The St John of God organisation, which is funded by the HSE to provide disability and mental health services, has conceded the remuneration of one of its senior managers is not compliant with public pay rules, the Public Accounts Committee was told.

http://bit.ly/29GB7DJ

Mary63

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/parents-fury-at-john-of-god-nepotism-claims-34872290.html

I must set up a charity soon and make sure all my family members get nixers there.

Sapphire

Simon2015 wrote: »

He shouldn't get the dole.

You can be sure kelly has money stashed away probably 100's of thousands if not millions.

Might be no harm to let the DSP attempt to means-test the fcuk out of him for lols

Mary63

In spite of what rockmountain the recent scandals that have come to light are with charities that receive a lot of HSE funding.

In spite of what he claims about auditing its as clear as the nose on anyones face that most of the problems are to go with poor Governance on the HSES part.

I wonder what the clinical issues raised n 2006 with Console staff were,I think I read it was lack of supervision.

It would be nice to know if members of the public attending Console were being treated by fully qualified staff,the Console clients were paying for this service,maybe not as much as if they went privately but they still contributed.Why would anyone fully qualified work for Console if the wages were very low,it has been reported that this was the case and in fact the staff regularly had to wait to be paid.

I suppose the HSE will say staff issues werent part of their remit either even though almost 600,000 euros of HSE money was going to Console.

2RockMountain

selastich2 wrote: »

In 200nine, there was questions about irregularities which were resolved to the satisfaction of the HSE. What checks did they do then?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hse-failed-to-quiz-its-employee-seconded-to-console-about-funds-34888551.html

I'm not sure. There are a few details in that article, but I'm not sure what the full story was. Are you aware of what irregularities were going on in 2009?

Mary63 wrote: »

The money was gone,every last penny of it and the people who had the credit cards were Paul Kelly,his wife,his son and the unnamed individual who had left the organisation six years previously.

What evidence do you need in these circumstances to go to the fraud squad in the Gardai.

Why didnt the HSE advise the Gardai and the charities regulator that they couldnt complete the audit and in those circumstances Consoles licence to organise charity events should be withdrawn.

Why didnt the HSE stop the funding in 2015,if they had the charity would have collapsed and this wouldnt have made much difference to those using the services seeing as most of the money intended for the service was going elsewhere anyway.

Also I wonder why the HSE official was sent to work in Console in 2008,was it because even then there were suspicions about the charity.

Because as I've told you at least five times, a half completed audit report is about as much use as an unsigned witness statement. It is no use in a legal scenario. Seeing details on a credit card bill means nothing. It is only when you've put those details to management and got a management response that you can come to conclusions about the validity of the audit or otherwise.

An uncompleted audit report would have delayed rather than helped the Gardai.

And please do share how you worked out that the HSE official was 'sent' to work in Console. There is a difference between being 'sent' and going on a career break, but you've opted for 'sent'. Is that based on any information?

mariaalice

Mary63 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/parents-fury-at-john-of-god-nepotism-claims-34872290.html

I must set up a charity soon and make sure all my family members get nixers there.

On a point they are not doing nixers and the works is hard, not a glamorous expenses all paid career, its work in residential care.

2RockMountain

Mary63 wrote: »

In spite of what rockmountain the recent scandals that have come to light are with charities that receive a lot of HSE funding.

In spite of what he claims about auditing its as clear as the nose on anyones face that most of the problems are to go with poor Governance on the HSES part.

Yes, let's not have mere facts getting in the way of a good rant full of indignation.

Mary63

so you are saying HSES auditors whose job it is is to make sure public money isn't being put to fraudulent use can be forced to wait until Paul Kelly gives an explanation of credit card spending,in this case the audit took twelve months instead of twelve weeks.He continues using the credit cards for the entire year the Auditors are supplied with different stories which they prove to be untrue one by one because Paul Kelly has no documentation to back his explanations up.

The dental bills for example are due to his teeth being knocked out by distressed Console clients.He changes the location of the said incident when challenged.Could the auditors not in performance of their duties ask for his dental records to see exactly what work was donee in seven dental visits in six months.Is this ultra vires too.

The speeding fine was on the credit card because Paul Kelly was speeding to a suicidal incident.There is no record of this incident whatsoever.

its put to him that the nuns spending is very similar to Kellys spending and he says thats just a co incidence.He is asked to identify the nun and he says she is the nun working on the console premises.The hSE approach this nun and she says she isn't the nun named on the credit card,that nun has left the organisation six years previously.Was that credit card in the non existent employees name cancelled.

If this is the sort of Governance we can expect from the HSE I shudder to think how much more taxpayers money is being embezzled.

I see Paul Kelly wants access to his wife's accounts now to pay almost five thousand in payment per month to the bank in respect of his home in Clane and the Console offices in Leixlip,his former family home.He must own both properties.This is a huge sum of money to be paid out of his salary which is I think 90,000 euros.

Do the Criminal Assets Bureau have any remit in cases like this,would their powers supersede the ultra fires rule if there is substantial evidence that embezzlement has taken place and will be ongoing.

The three charities in the news are Rehab,Console and St John of Gods,all receive huge sums of HSE funding and we now know the HSE governance of this money is wanting.There doesn't seem as yet to be any scandals associated with charities that don't receive public funding.

Do you work for the HSE 2rockmountain.

ohnonotgmail

2RockMountain wrote: »

I'm not sure. There are a few details in that article, but I'm not sure what the full story was. Are you aware of what irregularities were going on in 2009?



Because as I've told you at least five times, a half completed audit report is about as much use as an unsigned witness statement. It is no use in a legal scenario. Seeing details on a credit card bill means nothing. It is only when you've put those details to management and got a management response that you can come to conclusions about the validity of the audit or otherwise.

An uncompleted audit report would have delayed rather than helped the Gardai.

And please do share how you worked out that the HSE official was 'sent' to work in Console. There is a difference between being 'sent' and going on a career break, but you've opted for 'sent'. Is that based on any information?

While i agree that a half-completed audit report is as good as useless the fact that the auditor was constantly told story after changing story should have rang some alarm bells. Sufficient alarms bells for the HSE to withdraw funding until the audit could be completed to the satisfaction of the HSE. What action would the HSE have taken if a TV programme had not brought all of this to the public's attention?

2RockMountain

Mary63 wrote: »

The dental bills for example are due to his teeth being knocked out by distressed Console clients.He changes the location of the said incident when challenged.Could the auditors not in performance of their duties ask for his dental records to see exactly what work was donee in seven dental visits in six months.Is this ultra vires too.

The speeding fine was on the credit card because Paul Kelly was speeding to a suicidal incident.There is no record of this incident whatsoever.

its put to him that the nuns spending is very similar to Kellys spending and he says thats just a co incidence.He is asked to identify the nun and he says she is the nun working on the console premises.The hSE approach this nun and she says she isn't the nun named on the credit card,that nun has left the organisation six years previously.Was that credit card in the non existent employees name cancelled.

Isn't it great that you have all the answers on all these questions now, now that the audit had been completed - as opposed to having a pile of unsubstantiated and unresolved allegations. I wonder how that happened...

Mary63 wrote: »

Do you work for the HSE 2rockmountain.

No

2RockMountain

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

While i agree that a half-completed audit report is as good as useless the fact that the auditor was constantly told story after changing story should have rang some alarm bells. Sufficient alarms bells for the HSE to withdraw funding until the audit could be completed to the satisfaction of the HSE. What action would the HSE have taken if a TV programme had not brought all of this to the public's attention?

Console were reported by HSE to the Gardai long before the Prime Time show.