Multi-lane roundabouts

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Firstly, I didn't change lane, I entered the roundabout in the correct lane, continued to the exit I intended to take, which was a 2 lane exit, and tried to take the exit, exiting from the right hand lane on the roundabout, to the right hand lane of the exit

No where did I cross a dashed line, or change lane.

I think you need to learn the correct way to use a roundabout

On a one-way street you cannot turn left from a right-hand lane if there's a car on your left.

If you were on a two-lane road and wanted to pull into a filling station, would you assume the car on your left was pulling in there too, or would you hang back and give it room ?

grogi

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Firstly, I didn't change lane, I entered the roundabout in the correct lane, continued to the exit I intended to take, which was a 2 lane exit, and tried to take the exit, exiting from the right hand lane on the roundabout, to the right hand lane of the exit

No where did I cross a dashed line, or change lane.

I think you need to learn the correct way to use a roundabout

Remember for the rest of your motoring career: you cross a line, you change a lane or direction - give way to the traffic not doing so.

Regardless how many lanes are at the exit, it does not make it right to cut through an outside lane.

grogi

Jack Killian wrote: »

On a one-way street you cannot turn left from a right-hand lane if there's a car on your left.

Would that be even legal?

Turtle-TM

grogi wrote: »

Remember for the rest of your motoring career: you cross a line, you change a lane. Regardless how many lanes are at the exit, it does not make it right to cut through an outside lane.

Ok. You continue along your way if driving and I'll continue driving properly. Hopefully you don't cause an accident using a roundabout incorrectly.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

While I agree with you on the normal two lane road, a roundabout is a different situation.

Traffic to the right has right of way. From the video the silver car should not have entered the roundabout as he should have given way to the OP (assuming he was indicating to exit left appropriately).

Jack Killian wrote: »

On a one-way street you cannot turn left from a right-hand lane if there's a car on your left.

If you were on a two-lane road and wanted to pull into a filling station, would you assume the car on your left was pulling in there too, or would you hang back and give it room ?

What do you mean by "cut through"? How do you cut through a lane on a roundabout?

grogi wrote: »

...
Regardless how many lanes are at the exit, it does not make it right to cut through an outside lane.

You should get out more! They are becoming more common place. So best be careful and watch for merging traffic

Jack Killian wrote: »

Quite obviously not. I think I've seen it on two roundabouts ever.

Turtle-TM

Jack Killian wrote: »

On a one-way street you cannot turn left from a right-hand lane if there's a car on your left.

If you were on a two-lane road and wanted to pull into a filling station, would you assume the car on your left was pulling in there too, or would you hang back and give it room ?

How did we get to one way streets? Entirely different subject

grogi

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Ok. You continue along your way if driving and I'll continue driving properly. Hopefully you don't cause an accident using a roundabout incorrectly.

Don't get me wrong - the way you drive is the more efficient way, providing better utilization of tarmac...

If the road authorities marked the roads better, we would not have such discussion. Unfortunately they are marked as they are - and those RB are inefficient as hell.

Jack Killian

grogi wrote: »

Would that be even legal?

It could be if there are two lanes in the street you're turning into.

Let's face it though - most junctions in Ireland seem to never have been planned; there are roundabouts in Limerick that have pedestrian crossings on them as you exit - try "not stopping on a roundabout" on those!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Totally agree with grogi. A lot of the confusion comes down to poor road markings and signage.

Turtle-TM

grogi wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - the way you drive is the more efficient way, providing better utilization of tarmac...

If the road authorities marked the roads better, we would not have such discussion. Unfortunately they are marked as they are - and those RB are inefficient as hell.

Absolutely, they should be sign posted and marked on the road in a far better way, but the driver education needs to be better also.

If you enter a roundabout to continue past the first or second exit, I.e past "12 o'clock" then you should use the right hand lane of the roundabout, if the exit has multiple lanes in the exit, you stay in lane and exit into the corresponding lane of the exit from the lane you are in on the roundabout.

You do not however change lanes halfway around a roundabout.

Jack Killian

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

While I agree with you on the normal two lane road, a roundabout is a different situation.

Traffic to the right has right of way. From the video the silver car should not have entered the roundabout as he should have given way to the OP (assuming he was indicating to exit left appropriately).

Traffic to the right has the right of way AS YOU ENTER; not "at all times"!

You should get out more! They are becoming more common place. So best be careful and watch for merging traffic

I'm out plenty thanks; and "becoming more common place" is not the same as "they are all over the country", which was your earlier statement.

They've just repainted the roundabout nearest me and they added no merging arrow.

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Absolutely, they should be sign posted and marked on the road in a far better way, but the driver education needs to be better also.

If you enter a roundabout to continue past the first or second exit, I.e past "12 o'clock" then you should use the right hand lane of the roundabout, if the exit has multiple lanes in the exit, you stay in lane and exit into the corresponding lane of the exit from the lane you are in on the roundabout.

You do not however change lanes halfway around a roundabout.

This is where the issue arises - the rules say to indicate but they do not clearly state that you change into the outermost lane (which you should, assuming that you've checked your mirrors to ensure that any car on your left has exitted at the exit you just passed.

grogi

Turtle-TM wrote: »

You do not however change lanes halfway around a roundabout.

Well - I do. I change from inside to outside when I have one exit left.

That way I very rarely get into dodgy situation while still let the outside lane to be utilized...

irishmoss

whiterebel wrote: »

Having seen the video, I think the OP should have moved over to the left lane sooner, and tucked in behind the car entering the roundabout.

Yes and in your driving test now you must move back into the left lane otherwise this is a fail mark. You don't go all the way round in the right hand lane on a two lane roundabout you move back into the left providing it is safe and traffic allows

VincePP

Jack Killian wrote: »

On a one-way street you cannot turn left from a right-hand lane if there's a car on your left.

Always remember "EXCEPT WHERE INDICATED BY ROAD MARKINGS, ROAD SIGNAGE OR DIRECTED BY A GARDA"

this very important aspect is ignored by you and many others.

On that roundabout it is very clearly marked fir BOTH lanes to be used to travel up the glenamuck road.

Similarly both left and right lanes from ballinteer onto m50 north are used on a 270 degree roundabout exit - again it is clearly signposted.

So unless you know the roundabout the op was on you cannot say that the op was in the wrong lane.

I can state categorically that the op was in a correct lane but was wrong in not pulling back to avoid confrontation as it would have been easy to do so.

odyssey06

Re: moving back into the left lane. This means that on a multi-lane roundabout surrounded by bus lanes taking third exit, you would going around the roundabout, then change lane before exiting to left lane, then promptly changing lanes again to right lane avoid the bus lane. Said roundabout is also possibly ringed by pedestrian crossing traffic lights. See the Artane roundabout.

I sometimes wonder if the people who devise the driving test and rules of the road have ever driven on busy roundabouts, although what can they do when roundabouts are used in this fashion when clearly fully traffic light controlled junctions are called for.

Jack Killian

VincePP wrote: »

Always remember "EXCEPT WHERE INDICATED BY ROAD MARKINGS, ROAD SIGNAGE OR DIRECTED BY A GARDA"

this very important aspect is ignored by you and many others.

On that roundabout it is very clearly marked fir BOTH lanes to be used to travel up the glenamuck road.

Similarly both left and right lanes from ballinteer onto m50 north are used on a 270 degree roundabout exit - again it is clearly signposted.

So unless you know the roundabout the op was on you cannot say that the op was in the wrong lane.

I can state categorically that the op was in a correct lane but was wrong in not pulling back to avoid confrontation as it would have been easy to do so.

I didn't ignore anything; I agree that with a two-lane exit they were in the correct lane; and like yourself I agree that their error was the expectation that the car on their left wasn't going straight on, which it was entitled to do.

Jack Killian

odyssey06 wrote: »

Re: moving back into the left lane. This means that on a multi-lane roundabout surrounded by bus lanes taking third exit, you would going around the roundabout, then change lane before exiting to left lane, then promptly changing lanes again to right lane avoid the bus lane. Said roundabout is also possibly ringed by pedestrian crossing traffic lights. See the Artane roundabout.

I sometimes wonder if the people who devise the driving test and rules of the road have ever driven on busy roundabouts, although what can they do when roundabouts are used in this fashion when clearly fully traffic light controlled junctions are called for.

I sometimes wonder if whoever "designs" roundabouts (and other junctions) has ever actually driven!

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I did not state "at all times" in any of my posts. Traffic to the right has the right of way, it has to be as you are entering a roundabout ffs. :rolleyes:

The OP posted a video that clearly shows the silver car didn't give him right of way while entering the roundabout. Perhaps he should have dropped back to allow the car to pass, but the silver car in this case was in the wrong and should not have entered the roundabout.

I have shown you an example where you can be in either lane going straight on a one lane exit. The RSA website shows an example of using both lanes to go straight on a two lane exit.

Jack Killian wrote: »

Traffic to the right has the right of way AS YOU ENTER; not "at all times"!

...

Jack Killian

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

I did not state "at all times" in any of my posts. Traffic to the right has the right of way, it has to be as you are entering a roundabout ffs. :rolleyes:

OK - there has to be some seriously crossed wires here. The "right of way on the right" was used to justify the OP trying to cross in front of a car ON the roundabout.

The OP posted a video that clearly shows the silver car didn't give him right of way while entering the roundabout. Perhaps he should have dropped back to allow the car to pass, but the silver car in this case was in the wrong and should not have entered the roundabout.

Depends completely on when they indicated; you assumed earlier that their left indicator was on, and you even mentioned / flagged that assumption explicitlly yourself.

I have shown you an example where you can be in either lane going straight on a one lane exit. .

Where ? Who's to say that the "merge" isn't for cars from your entrance and the entrance you just passed ? Unless it's marked on the way in, you can't assume, as you won't have seen the arrow until after you should have acted on it.

Turtle-TM

No point flogging a dead horse here. Unfortunately the rules for multi lane roundabouts are open to too much interpretation leading to different opinions on how to use them. I've looked at all the rsa material and I'm happy that I am using that particular roundabout correctly due to its layout.

VincePP

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

. Traffic to the right has the right of way.

To be correct, Traffic already on the roundabout has right of way - that's both traffic to your right and traffic ahead of you. - Even if that traffic entered hastily.

And that what the OP would have be brought up upon.

Similarly, some drivers think that they can enter the roundabout a speed without giving a thought to car entering just before them at the next entrance.

But I do find it funny that if a garda bike was stationary at the side of a roundabout almost everyone would get it right!

Jack Killian

VincePP wrote: »

To be correct, Traffic already on the roundabout has right of way - that's both traffic to your right and traffic ahead of you. - Even if that traffic entered hastily.

And that what the OP would have be brought up upon.

Similarly, some drivers think that they can enter the roundabout a speed without giving a thought to car entering just before them at the next entrance.

But I do find it funny that if a garda bike was stationary at the side of a roundabout almost everyone would get it right!

+1

Feed Up

Turtle-TM wrote: »

You shouldn't change lane when on a roundabout, if it is a multi lane roundabout you enter the correct lane when coming into the roundabout. Quite simple.

Quite simple? So how was he to get off the R/A? He was in lane 2, had to enter lane 1 to exit. So therefore he had to change lane.

To reiterate my point, if he had changed lane at the point I marked, one of two things would have happened:

1 the driver entering the R/A may have yielded = no problem to exit

2 if he had changed lane and the driver did not yield he would have been behind the car = again no problem to exit

To take your point further, everyone would have to enter a multilane R/A in lane one as they need to be in lane one to exit. You can't exit from lane two without entering lane one.

To get very technical, to exit from lane two, is two manoeuvers, lane two to lane one and lane one to the off ramp.

The person heard shouting called it right.

grogi

Turtle-TM wrote: »

No point flogging a dead horse here. Unfortunately the rules for multi lane roundabouts are open to too much interpretation leading to different opinions on how to use them. I've looked at all the rsa material and I'm happy that I am using that particular roundabout correctly due to its layout.

There are no special rules for roundabouts, just ordinary rules of the road:
* give way when changing lane or crossing a lane
* if two cars change a lane, give way to the car in right

Use inbound lane when taking 2nd and further exits is just a guideline aiming to optimise throughput of the roundabout, but it is not law.

I've taken 5 mins to redesign the marking on that RB, so there is nothing open to interpretation...



Left - current situation. Right - turbine... Why this cannot be done right, like in the right?

I don't know the exact proportion of volume of the traffic, so the lines could be drawn a bit differently to allow max throughput. I did not care about the arrows at the entry points as well. But you get the idea, right?

Turtle-TM

Feed Up wrote: »

Quite simple? So how was he to get off the R/A? He was in lane 2, had to enter lane 1 to exit. So therefore he had to change lane.

To reiterate my point, if he had changed lane at the point I marked, one of two things would have happened:

1 the driver entering the R/A may have yielded = no problem to exit

2 if he had changed lane and the driver did not yield he would have been behind the car = again no problem to exit

To take your point further, everyone would have to enter a multilane R/A in lane one as they need to be in lane one to exit. You can't exit from lane two without entering lane one.

To get very technical, to exit from lane two, is two manoeuvers, lane two to lane one and lane one to the off ramp.

The person heard shouting called it right.

In this case there are 2 lanes on the exit of the roundabout. I am perfectly in the right to continue in the right had lane of the roundabout and exit on the right lane of the exit. There should be no car in the left lane continuing straight, as if there is it means they entered the roundabout with out yielding to traffic coming from the right.

Feed Up

Turtle-TM wrote: »

In this case there are 2 lanes on the exit of the roundabout. I am perfectly in the right to continue in the right had lane of the roundabout and exit on the right lane of the exit. There should be no car in the left lane continuing straight, as if there is it means they entered the roundabout with out yielding to traffic coming from the right.

What are you on about?

If your in lane 2, then in order to exit the R/A you have to enter lane 1 irrespective of the number of lanes on the off ramp. You still have to enter/cross lane 1.

So get into lane 1 (1st manoeuvre) and then exit (2nd manoeuvre) instead of just driving across the lanes and thinking you're in the right. And don't forget to MSMM.

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

There should be no car in the left lane continuing straight, as if there is it means they entered the roundabout with out yielding to traffic coming from the right.

Untrue. You weren't in the lane they were going into. "Yield" is not the same as stop, and you are meant to proceed if safe to do so.

Jack Killian

grogi wrote: »

There are no special rules for roundabouts, just ordinary rules of the road:
* give way when changing lane or crossing a lane
* if two cars change a lane, give way to the car in right

Use inbound lane when taking 2nd and further exits is just a guideline aiming to optimise throughput of the roundabout, but it is not law.

I've taken 5 mins to redesign the marking on that RB, so there is nothing open to interpretation...



Left - current situation. Right - turbine... Why this cannot be done right, like in the right?

I don't know the exact proportion of volume of the traffic, so the lines could be drawn a bit differently to allow max throughput. I did not care about the arrows at the entry points as well. But you get the idea, right?

Nice idea. But if someone enters from the road in the right of the pic and wants to exit on the left of the pic, you're causing a driver in the right lane to cut them off.

grogi

Jack Killian wrote: »

Nice idea. But if someone enters from the road in the right of the pic and wants to exit on the left of the pic, you're causing a driver in the right lane to cut them off.

This time it is clearly marked with the dashed line how the lane goes. It would be the green that cuts through the lane...
Should they wanted to exit to the West, they would need to take the inner lane at entry (I did not update the arrows at entry, so they might be confusing)...