Multi-lane roundabouts

blondeonblonde

Vic_08 wrote: »

Well this thread has proceeded in a thoroughly predictable way. OP put video up followed by the usual lot of self-appointed experts making up their own rules and slating the OP.

Add in some laughable Paddy Logic "even though he was in the right, by not allowing the other person to do what they liked without complaint he was actually in the wrong" nonsense from a thoroughly predictable source and we have the thread nicely filled with the required amount of shoite.

It looks pretty clear cut to me actually and so called "Paddy logic" has nothing to do with it.

The OP was clearly in the right in his approach to the roundabout. He entered safely in the correct lane, he indicated correctly (according to himself) and he was in the appropriate lane when leaving the roundabout.

Likewise, the silver Hyundai was negligent in entering the roundabout. They did not wait until the way was clear and should have yielded to oncoming traffic on the roundabout.

However, and herein lies the rub, the OP did not exercise correct judgement in exiting the roundabout because he could clearly see that the silver car had entered the roundabout. The fact that she entered without yielding sufficiently to traffic on the roundabout is a moot point because the OP could clearly what the other car was doing and should have taken evasive action rather than simply trying to cut across her to make some sort of point.

The rules of the road are quite clear when it comes to negotiating a roundabout and as I mentioned above, the OP was very nearly correct in his approach. However, there is a disclaimer included in the rules that states:

"Remember:
Conditions at roundabouts may vary. Excercise caution at all times.

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to:

traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit,

traffic that may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly"


There is little point in being "right" and crashing into another vehicle to make some sort of vigilante point about someone not following the rules of the road!!

** incidentally, it is not up to any one to "allow" another driver to do anything on the road! The Gardai are responsible for enforcement of road traffic rules, not individual drivers**

Turtle-TM

blondeonblonde wrote: »

It looks pretty clear cut to me actually and so called "Paddy logic" has nothing to do with it.

The OP was clearly in the right in his approach to the roundabout. He entered safely in the correct lane, he indicated correctly (according to himself) and he was in the appropriate lane when leaving the roundabout.

Likewise, the silver Hyundai was negligent in entering the roundabout. They did not wait until the way was clear and should have yielded to oncoming traffic on the roundabout.

However, and herein lies the rub, the OP did not exercise correct judgement in exiting the roundabout because he could clearly see that the silver car had entered the roundabout. The fact that she entered without yielding sufficiently to traffic on the roundabout is a moot point because the OP could clearly what the other car was doing and should have taken evasive action rather than simply trying to cut across her to make some sort of point.

The rules of the road are quite clear when it comes to negotiating a roundabout and as I mentioned above, the OP was very nearly correct in his approach. However, there is a disclaimer included in the rules that states:

"Remember:
Conditions at roundabouts may vary. Excercise caution at all times.

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to:

traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit,

traffic that may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly"


There is little point in being "right" and crashing into another vehicle to make some sort of vigilante point about someone not following the rules of the road!!

** incidentally, it is not up to any one to "allow" another driver to do anything on the road! The Gardai are responsible for enforcement of road traffic rules, not individual drivers**

Sensible points well made! It's 50/50 whether I slowed down on the roundabout in anticipation of her continuing on the roundabout or assumed the driver was taking the first exit as the car ahead of her did, which would be a reasonable assumption imo. The only reason I came along side her as I said previously was because I was in the inside lane, so had less distance to travel.

Unfortunately it's not going to be the last time it will happen on that roundabout.

curiosity

OP, while the silver Hyundai should have waited before entering the roundabout (especially if you had your left-turn indicators on, and the driver could see them), the fact that you both came to a standstill on a roundabout seemed quite dangerous, to my layman's eyes. It would have been easy enough for you to drop your speed, slip in behind the Hyundai, and exit as you planned. You were stationary on the roundabout for approximately 5 seconds, so I take it that there was nothing too close behind you. Better to show a bit of empathy than get into a collision (or the anger/beeping/gesticulating that comes with a near-miss). It'd be a shame to ruin a sunny day with a fender-bender.

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Sensible points well made! It's 50/50 whether I slowed down on the roundabout in anticipation of her continuing on the roundabout or assumed the driver was taking the first exit as the car ahead of her did, which would be a reasonable assumption imo...

She did put her right-turn indicator on once she joined the roundabout.

Kudos for waiting on the cyclist to pass before you entered the roundabout.:)

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

Sensible points well made! It's 50/50 whether I slowed down on the roundabout in anticipation of her continuing on the roundabout or assumed the driver was taking the first exit as the car ahead of her did, which would be a reasonable assumption imo. The only reason I came along side her as I said previously was because I was in the inside lane, so had less distance to travel.

Why do you think that is a "reasonable assumption", when the left-hand lane is perfectly valid to use for both first/left exit and second exit ?

Jack Killian

curiosity wrote: »

She did put her right-turn indicator on once she joined the roundabout.

Another absolutely woeful common error - treating every exit as an independent "fork".

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

On a roundabout with 2 lanes, and a person is in the right hand lane because the entrance and exit they are taking dictates that, then there shouldn't be a car in the left lane. It's not "cutting accross", it's exiting the roundabout correctly

Not if you don't do it in time - immediately after the previous exit.

I will say that a lot of Irish roundabouts are far too small / too busy to negotiate 100% correctly and safely, but that one in the video seemed plenty big enough, and quiet enough, to negotiate properly, changing lanes in good time.

There used to be one in Limerick that ridiculously said "Left or Straight Ahead, use both lanes", until someone pointed out that the person on the right lane could be going left and the person on the left could be going straight, meaning the sign was encouraging a crash......the sign's gone now.

Turtle-TM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Not if you don't do it in time - immediately after the previous exit.

I will say that a lot of Irish roundabouts are far too small / too busy to negotiate 100% correctly and safely, but that one in the video seemed plenty big enough, and quiet enough, to negotiate properly, changing lanes in good time

But changing lanes while on a roundabout isn't correct. I was in the right lane, and intended to exit into the right lane of the exit.

odyssey06

Conclusion after 68 posts, multi-lane roundabouts should be banned immediately.
* Councils can't be trusted to mark them properly
* Drivers can't be trusted to use them properly
* In the event of an accident, it's too difficult to apportion blame and it's the old 50-50 split, even where it's clear whose deviant behaviour was the trigger (in this case, not the OP).

Jack Killian

Turtle-TM wrote: »

But changing lanes while on a roundabout isn't correct. I was in the right lane, and intended to exit into the right lane of the exit.

If there were two lanes on the exit then you have a point. The assumption that she was going left was still wrong though.

MadDog76

blondeonblonde wrote: »

It looks pretty clear cut to me actually and so called "Paddy logic" has nothing to do with it.

The OP was clearly in the right in his approach to the roundabout. He entered safely in the correct lane, he indicated correctly (according to himself) and he was in the appropriate lane when leaving the roundabout.

Likewise, the silver Hyundai was negligent in entering the roundabout. They did not wait until the way was clear and should have yielded to oncoming traffic on the roundabout.

However, and herein lies the rub, the OP did not exercise correct judgement in exiting the roundabout because he could clearly see that the silver car had entered the roundabout. The fact that she entered without yielding sufficiently to traffic on the roundabout is a moot point because the OP could clearly what the other car was doing and should have taken evasive action rather than simply trying to cut across her to make some sort of point.

The rules of the road are quite clear when it comes to negotiating a roundabout and as I mentioned above, the OP was very nearly correct in his approach. However, there is a disclaimer included in the rules that states:

"Remember:
Conditions at roundabouts may vary. Excercise caution at all times.

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to:

traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit,

traffic that may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly"


There is little point in being "right" and crashing into another vehicle to make some sort of vigilante point about someone not following the rules of the road!!

** incidentally, it is not up to any one to "allow" another driver to do anything on the road! The Gardai are responsible for enforcement of road traffic rules, not individual drivers**

I think your post summed the whole situation up perfectly, there's nothing more to say, you've said it all.

Charlie-Bravo

I love roundabouts as they are always a challenge. Our lovely Hyundai driver is in the left lane going 'straight on' I presume!

I regularly use this roundabout from M50 north off ramp and would feel the right lane is more suitable for Ballyogan Rd. Now the road markings are sh*te because it gives two arrows for straight on:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZHdNHsYaua52,

can otherboardsies tell me how they would use it for Ballyogan Road? It's nearly like using the left lane doesn't suit the second exit as there's no two lane exit there and you are traveling along such a long arc with the right lane alongside!! For reference M50 off ramp has the Ballyogan road at about 12 o'clock.

Left lane for the first two exits , carrickmines & ballyogan Rd.
Right lane for the next two exits, m50 & foxrock/ cabinteely.

Charlie-Bravo

I hear ya, makes sense on paper. The two road markings indicating 'straight on' for both lanes is a bit confusing anyway. I would be happy to see 'left only' marking in left lane and everywhere else in the right lane.

Jack Killian

astrofluff wrote: »

I hear ya, makes sense on paper. The two road markings indicating 'straight on' for both lanes is a bit confusing anyway. I would be happy to see 'left only' marking in left lane and everywhere else in the right lane.

If there's two lanes coming off then it's standard enough to have both usable.

Not much point wasting one lane on a single direction with everyone else (3+ more exits?) stuck in the right lane.

Jack Killian

Jack Killian wrote: »

If there's two lanes coming off then it's standard enough to have both usable.

Not much point wasting one lane on a single direction with everyone else (3+ more exits?) stuck in the right lane.

There isn't though, only one lane on ballyogan rd

Jack Killian

bubblypop wrote: »

There isn't though, only one lane on ballyogan rd

So the standard rule should apply - left lane for first 2 exits and right lane for the rest.

At least that ensures that traffic is spread over 2 lanes, and doesn't have the left lane under-utilised.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I have always known it as left lane for first two exits and right lane for second or subsequent exits?

Jack Killian wrote: »

So the standard rule should apply - left lane for first 2 exits and right lane for the rest.

At least that ensures that traffic is spread over 2 lanes, and doesn't have the left lane under-utilised.

Jack Killian

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

I have always known it as left lane for first two exits and right lane for second or subsequent exits?

There's an overlap there ?

If you meant "third or subsequent exits" then we're saying the same thing ?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

No overlap.

Why can't the second exit be used by either lane? Two lanes approaching, two lanes exiting. There can be no accidents.

Generally, where there's two lanes approaching, there's two lanes on the roundabout and two exit lanes.

Jack Killian wrote: »

There's an overlap there ?

If you meant "third or subsequent exits" then we're saying the same thing ?

odyssey06

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

No overlap. Why can't the second exit be used by either lane? Two lanes approaching, two lanes exiting. There can be no accidents. Generally, where there's two lanes approaching, there's two lanes on the roundabout and two exit lanes.

That makes sense. What confuses me is roundabouts where there are two lanes on approach and one on exit.

If there's two lanes on approach, both are going straight through \ taking 12 o'clock exit, but the exit is only single lane, who should yield on exit? The car in the left\outer approach lane or right\inner approach lane?
I'm thinking right\inner should yield?

Jack Killian

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

No overlap.

Why can't the second exit be used by either lane? Two lanes approaching, two lanes exiting. There can be no accidents.

Generally, where there's two lanes approaching, there's two lanes on the roundabout and two exit lanes.

No idea where you get that last bit; the majority of roundabouts here in Limerick have two lanes on but only one at the exit ?

IF / WHEN there are two on/two off, then I'd agree, but someone exitting would then need to be aware of any car that came on at the first exit so as not to cut across it when exitting - as per the OP.

Jack Killian

odyssey06 wrote: »

That makes sense. What confuses me is roundabouts where there are two lanes on approach and one on exit.

If there's two lanes on approach, both are going straight through \ taking 12 o'clock exit, but the exit is only single lane, who should yield on exit? The car in the left\outer approach lane or right\inner approach lane?
I'm thinking right\inner should yield?

No - if there is only one lane on exit then the right-hand lane should NOT be used when entering, as it creates a "race" scenario.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Are you a magical mystical being that can see "All"? You cannot know how many lanes are on an exit unless you have been on the roundabout before, how could you?

With one exit, you merge!

Although mentioning the word "merge" opens up another can of worms
Motorway + merging + M50 comes to mind. Ughhh.

Jack Killian wrote: »

No - if there is only one lane on exit then the right-hand lane should NOT be used when entering, as it creates a "race" scenario.

Charlie-Bravo

It shouldn't be left up to ambiguity, drivers should be told what lane is appropriate for left turn, straight on and so on. At least one of those lanes on the off-ramp (from M50 north) should have the straight-on arrow removed.

The Backwards Man

I'm very grateful that I live somewhere where I can drive for weeks without encountering a roundabout. The people that are posting here should have a wee bit of knowledge about driving (some of ye anyway), and ye are still blaming the OP for the incident, imagine having to meet the people that haven't a ball's notion how to use a roundabout on one on a daily basis.

Driverless cars can't come soon enough.

VincePP

astrofluff wrote: »

I hear ya, makes sense on paper. The two road markings indicating 'straight on' for both lanes is a bit confusing anyway. I would be happy to see 'left only' marking in left lane and everywhere else in the right lane.

The main issue there is it leads to the busiest retail park in the country, so having just one lane for traffic from the roundabout would cause massive tailbacks.

It is clearly marked that both lanes can be used.

From the video the OP was not doing anything wrong except should have slowed down sooner and allow the other car go ahead, even if the other car had entered a little hastily.

Jus because one motorist does something that is debateable, doesn't mean another motorist can "punish" by purposely not slowing until they "make a point".

The OP could very very easily have slowed sooner and if a garda was present it would be the OP hat would be pulled for driving without due care - as that is what his video shows.

Jack Killian

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

Are you a magical mystical being that can see "All"? You cannot know how many lanes are on an exit unless you have been on the roundabout before, how could you?

When in doubt, obey the default rule; left lane for 1st & 2nd exits, right lane for all others.

Charlie-Bravo

VincePP wrote: »

The main issue there is it leads to the busiest retail park in the country, so having just one lane for traffic from the roundabout would cause massive tailbacks.

It is clearly marked that both lanes can be used.

The problem here is that they cannot! It's not clear at all because the left lane has a left arrow and straight-on arrow (left/first exit to The Park, straight on/second exit to Ballyogan Rd). The right lane is straight-on (back onto M50 as said earlier??) and last exit over the bridge (to race course/Cabinteely).

I will agree that with the additional traffic to The Park, both lanes should be left turn lanes, and the right lane also for straight-on and right turn. this can be exhausting.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

That's just nonsense and would slow the flow of traffic. In particular for those turning left.

Are you unable to merge? What do you do when a dual carriageway reduces to a single lane? It rhymes with verge. :pac:

Apply the same rule for roundabouts reducing from two to one lane.

Jack Killian wrote: »

When in doubt, obey the default rule; left lane for 1st & 2nd exits, right lane for all others.

odyssey06

Isaiah Hot Sneaker wrote: »

That's just nonsense and would slow the flow of traffic. In particular for those turning left.
Are you unable to merge? What do you do when a dual carriageway reduces to a single lane? It rhymes with verge. :pac:
Apply the same rule for roundabouts reducing from two to one lane.

The point of roundabouts is to have better flow than traffic lights controlled junctions... If you have to slow and merge in, or watch out for a car that might at any moment use the roundabout incorrectly by e.g. traveling around the roundabout in the outer lane, that benefit becomes redundant.

If there are two lanes on approach and one lane on exit, it should be clearly posted that e.g. left lane must use 1st exit etc, right lane third exit only etc etc As Irish councils are unable to provide this sort of basic signage, multi-lane roundabouts are unable to deliver the purpose they were put in for.
Get rid of them.